Following on from below, tricks or amazing dressage?

there is a video on horsesforlife.com of Nuno Oliviera doing the backwards canter. it's an extreme level of collection, quite amazing to watch and to feel (btw the grey in my siggy would do this when hysterically excited - before SC at a 3-day) so it is definitely a 'natural' thing for some horses to do...
that's a very good passage/piaffe, not sure about the spanish walk step in the middle of it though, looks a bit circusy to me!
the third one is a bit similar, not true trot any more is it? or am i missing something?
the 4th one looks horrible, i don't want to think about the shearing forces going down that leg as he twists through 360 degrees on it...
 
I thought the first and last were awful to watch, definitely tricks. The second and third weren't quite so bad, but still tricks if you ask me. To me dressage should be something pleasing to the eye and this just isn't.
 
First one : horse looks tense and resistant. Don't think that's "spectactular" or impressive at all.
Second : Tricks. Sorry, but the raising of the fore leg? Not necessary or required in a DR test. However, reins were actually quite loose, which shows he's not tying the head in or down.
Third : Classical spanish. But again, point 2 ^^^.
Fourth : Definate tricks and the horse looks tense and upset in it mouth, and is definately not soft or relaxed through jaw or poll.

Just MHO from total DR numpty
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first video, horse goes disunited.

second video, horse isn't level in collection over both hindlegs, hence one leg not coming up enough and the other is snatching- no rhythm

third video, i'm not really sure what he is trying to show???
if it an extension then the horse isn't lengthening in frame and the hindlegs don't match the front.

forth video, again not a recognised dressage move.
as all dressage moves are meant to help lighten the forehand and aid with collection i am not sure how spinning on a foreleg works towards either?
 
Hmmmm, interesting.
Those horses are trained classically I believe, completely different to how the modern european competition dressage horses are trained.
I don't really like the last video, I must say. But the ways in which these horses were trained to do this was most likely not through pain and force, but time. For a horse to achieve such extreme collection seen in these videos takes a long time.
They don't look like they are cases of learned helplessness, and seem to look like they are quite enjoying it.
Where I used to work, we had an older horse trained to GP level, although never competed. He was ridden and trained for many years by the ex chief of the spanish riding school. According to many who knew, he should have been an olympic horse. His speciality was collection, and would happily piaffe, passage and especially pirouette all day. He loved his work and would pretty much drag you to the indoor school where he could be worked.
In the video before, the horse pretty much looked like he had given up any fight or spirit a long time ago. Learned helplessness.
I think that these videos are performed in a way that they look like tricks, but the time and training involved is amazing. Many classical riders don't compete in top dressage now, because they won't lower themselves to do what is necessary to 'win'.
 
second video: the jambette is a Haute Ecole movement isn't it? So, although it's not a Dressage movement surely it has every right to exist / be performed as any other airs on the ground or above the ground? I might be awfully mistaken but in my opinion something like a Jambette (originally born within a military context) is probably less 'circusy' than, say, something like one-times (invented far more recently, purely as 'performance')?

third video: no idea really, however, it doesn't look too different from Totilas' extensions
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fourth video: uhm, not sure
 
I'd rather see any of these than that god awful warm up video that everyones posting at the moment.
OK these videos wouldn't he high scoring in comeptition but hell at least they aren't strapped down into submission.
 
Surely third video is spanish trot. According to Dr. Deb Bennett, who has some really old films, a properly trained horse could do all the high school movements, up to and including spanish walk and spanish trot, and was then said to be "gaited." The modern gaited horse perfoms an exaggerated trot known as the "rack" which happens inthe USA not the UK and is partly from breeding.

The last one looked like a trick.

James Fillis - the grand-daddy of Haute Ecole, used to demonstrate backwards canter. And also riding one horse and driving another one in front, both perfoming high school movements. Try that one at home!
 
"Gaited" horses, in modern parlance, are breeds like Saddlebreds, Walking Horses, Rocky Mountain Horses etc. (and technically Icelandic Horses, I guess) that have the usual walk/trot/canter and then four beat and/or lateral gaits as well, such as the rack, the singlefoot or amble, the pace etc. They aren't dressage horses and generally don't excel in the modern discipline as they are so inclined to "go lateral" and many also don't have what we would call great canters. Although some of the Three Gaited Saddlebreds are very nice and many gaited horses actually jump quite well.

Can't comment on what the phrase used to mean (but will have to go read my Deb Bennett
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) but if you said you had a gaited horse in the US now, that's how it would be deciphered. They're are part of the "saddle seat" discipline, although not all ss horses are gaited and there are ss (or park seat) Arabs, Morgans etc.

As noted above, what we call "dressage" is actually only one very specific school of riding and training, European in origin (it's also called the German Competitive School) and relatively modern in origin. There are other "high schools" that differ significantly, complete with their own styles of tack, riding, and horses. You can't really compare apples and oranges. As to whether those are good examples or not, I can't really say as I don't know enough to judge. I do know that some of the things we consider "correct" are not so in other schools, for example the massive winging action you see in Paso Finos is not a deviation, it's a sought after action! The "bullfighting" schools have all sorts of movements that don't correspond to any thing we have in modern dressage but presumably they all have/have had their purpose and criteria to be judged by.
 
I don't see a general difference between 'circus' moves and 'dressage' moves. It's not as if the latter are justified and the former are purely for pleasure. Dressage moves have come to mean the ones that are currently approved for modern dressage tests, but they have evolved from a much richer tradition, which is still practiced in its wider form around the world. As others have said the question is whether each movement is performed well or not, not whether it can be classified as 'dressage' = acceptable, or 'circus' = unacceptable.

I am not an expert but in the first the horse seems four beat and disunited. The Oliveira video showing the reverse canter looks much more harmonious so I would conclude that this movement is badly executed.

The second includes a classical move I am not very familiar with but appears harmoniously executed.

The third appears to be a classical version of the passage crossed with a spanish trot, seems OK to me, but I have no idea.

The fourth looks quite tense and forced on this occassion, but maybe can be performed better by another combination?

The fifth looks potentially impressive but a bit all over the place in this instance.
 
First Video: Awkward! Don't think it is well executed since the horse loses its rhythm totally and breaks into a rein back. (And there are better displays of this)

Second Video: Haute ecole, each of the movements shown is well executed but think the two together looks awkward.

Third: Agreeing with FB, reminds me of Totilas' movement.

Fourth: Other than the original jambette/walk...not sure of the point of it. Can't be good for the horses leg!

Fifth: Again haute ecole movement.....Has the potential to be more refined and smoother, but looks clumsy and slightly pointless.

I think movements like the ones in the vids, are seen as tricks by alot of people because they are not asked for/approved in modern amateur/pro am dressage....

Like Booboos has said, the execution of the movement is important; if it is smooth, flowing and *comfortable*, it seems to have a purpose. But when the rider and the horse become separate and the rhythm is lost, it looks awkward and forced, and *looks* to have lost its meaning.
 
I think this guy wouldn't be as clearly "well known" (im guessing he is due to the performances he is doing) if the movements he did wern't generally accepted in the spanish riding method. They all seem to be, ok not the best examples, but normal classical spanish riding movement, except for the fourth one which seems a bit crazy. You can see from how he is riding he isn't forcing the horse into anything, and the horse could not do it if it didn't wan't to, or it was hurting too much!!!!
 
Fourth one is a trick - its very weird.

I think the others are not, but not always sure what they are. The on the spot canter looks very unrhythmical. The 2nd and third half the time you cant tell if its meant to be doing piaffe or passage in between the jambette thingy / weird extended trot.
 
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