Following on from BHS Breeding campaign can I ask

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BBH

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for those that are breeding this year and next, who are you breeding for, are the foals for yourself or do you hope to find buyers or a mixture of the two.

This isn't an inference that the foals won't be quality but am just interested really as we are always hearing of a surplus of stock and we are in difficult times yet there seems to be a lot of confidence out there with the numbers produced.
 
Thank you Bumpy Ride for voicing this issue. There are a huge number of horses being destroyed each week just for having the missfortune to be born in a recession! The rendering plants here in Ireland have a 5 week waiting list to get you horse in to despose of it. The equine industry really wants to sit up and take notice - there are very few buyers out there, the average Joe Blogs is trying to hold on to his job and doesn't have the cash to be buying a youngster to bring on. Anyone breeding this year without a very good strategy as to what they might do with a foal that no one wants needs to take a good hard look at what they are doing. Maybe all the societies we register our foals with should step in to advise on what needs to be done, they are very happy to take our money for the animals when we register them but these societies have a responsibility too.
 
Yes I was looking at the thread above on HHOers foals due in 2009 and thinking there's so many, and also talk of which Stallion people will be using next year. This is fine if they are bred for themselves but personally I know of two people who have shelved plans to buy foals and I'm not sure where these customers will come from, if all these offspring are destined for the open market.
 
You are so right, there is too much indiscriminate breeding going on. We usually breed for ourselves (but only had 1 retired event mare). She can't breed any more and I am so glad that we are not breeding at the moment. We have 2 fillys but until the market picks up they certainly won't be having any foals.
 
Yes - Those of us who have invested a great deal of time & money in setting up horse breeding businesses can no more down tools & take 'time out' than any other business at this time. You wouldn't be castigating a builder trying to build new homes at this time, despite the market - he obviously needs to continue doing this to make his living.

The inference from the original post is that we are all doing it as some form of hobby and that we don't spend a great deal of time considering very very carefully each & every animal we breed; it's pedigree, potential & place in the market. Worse still you seem to feel that we are somehow irresponsible for continuing in business.

Not one responsible breeder will let suffer or worse still destroy an otherwise healthy animal simply because of economics - A healthy animal that we have invested so heavily in & I do not simply mean financially!
 
From a personal perspective, I am breeding my mare for a foal (due April) for myself and I anticipate keeping it for an extremely long time (if not forever) unless of course a £100k cheque (not from a scammer) lands on my mat for it - but this is highly unlikely.

I had my mare covered by a quality stallion at a small but well respected breeder, the responsible breeders i have met through the process were always after quality and they have spent years building good reputations with an eye to their market.

As someone pointed out in a different thread there will always be those that aren't quite so responsible and I don't think these type of people will even care about a BHS campaign. Sadly I worry that headline grabbing campaigns associated with any organisation sometimes just end up over regulating the wrong people not those that in any industry slip through the net.
 
Responsable people that spend several hundred/thousand pounds on a stallion and vets fees are mostly going to look after the foals.
The ones that pay 200 quid and chuck their mare in the field with 15 other mares and one stallion are the ones that need to stop and think, but a polite press statement is not the way to go.

And yes I'll be breeding a good few to keep, produce and sell in 4 or 5 yrs or so, when they'll be a shortage of horses!!
 
From the breeders I know & from information gained from other sources many will be putting fewer mares in-foal this year. However to stop breeding entirely is not sensible from a business perspective. In 4/5yrs time the recession should be over and if no one bred now there would be a shortage of good horses/ponies in the market place.

Yes it may be that many horses/ponies are being put down at present for financial reasons. It may be that rather than spending thousands on treating a horse/pony that may or may not recover is not happening but is that so bad?

In a recession business tend to re-focus and I would rather see a responsible owner that could no longer afford a horse/pony have it PTS.
 
There are breeders who are cutting back this year just as there are builders not starting houses until the finished ones are reserved at least.

I think the hobby breeder & the I am breeding for myself need to think long & hard. It costs more to breed then to buy a well bred 6mth foal & circumstances change, so today you maybe able to afford it but tomorrow you may have to sell the mare along with the foal. There are still jobs to be lost & houses to be repossed we are a long way from being out of this recession. So when you are thinking about breeding are you going to be able to afford the new foal if your circumstances change.
 
im breeding for sale but i like to think what is being bred is good quality and wont end up in the meat factory, my mares are well selected and graded or have performance record, and the stallion are well bred correct horses, but if they dont sell they will stay. im fortunate that my out goings are not huge so i can afford to do it more as a hobby than a business.
 
I echo what Delovely said ......

Breeding is our BUSINESS - not just a hobby, so if we DONT breed - we are doing ourselves out of an income..........

And if we dont sell all the foals we breed as weanlings - then that really isnt going to bother us greatly anyhow - as the market WILL pick up and we are constantly being asked for horses that are grown and started under saddle......... so if its 'bad' for a few years, thats not going to worry us either! If that makes sense..........

It actually would be NICE to keep some to grow out rather than send them all off still as babies! lol.........

We have a list of about 20 people at the moment who are deadly serious about wanting to buy youngsters we have due soon, and about 40 people on the list to send photos and info on foals born to who MIGHT be interested.... some mares have a lineup of people waiting for their foals...... so its first in best dressed..

Our foals arent ridiculously priced and we can produce foals for a lot less than SOME studs can - as we DONT have the overheads and we are passing those along to our buyers.... It doesnt mean that our horses are any less valuable.... just more affordable
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At the moment I have people returning to buy another horse from us after being thrilled with the first one.
Last week alone I had viewers return from Kent to look at the three year olds and they rang back to say they are returning with their rider and might buy both!
Then I got an email from someone who used our stallion, her gelding she bred is pleasing her so much she is after another youngster to bring on.
I think if you know which part of the market you are breeding for there is no problem selling.
Ours are aimed at the person who wants to do BE up to Novice, BSJA/BD etc and still be sensible enough for them to cope with them on DIY etc, the stallion passes good movement and trainabilty on which in turn makes them a pleasure to own.
For us the temperament has to be right, otherwise they don't cope with today's sometimes restricted and busy lifestyles, and it's taken 25 years of rejecting what we didn't want to get to what we now produce.
I think the majority of people on forums like this are ultra-careful what they breed, it's the rag tag and bobtails that you see at sales and out on Dartmoor and in scruffy little tin fenced yards that shouldn't be bred.
Sadly you will always get someone with a mare doing nothing they decide to breed from, and they are the ones that without correct producing end up ruined and hard to sell.
I can't be happy with the idea of breeding horses for meat either, it just doesn't sit well with me at all, I loathe abbatoirs and wish more people would think twice before sticking their not very sound or feeble mares in foal, often the meatman is the only end for their offspring.
In answer to your question if I stopped getting enquiries for horses I would breed less (4 due this year), but whilst I am being approached it looks like there is a market.
 
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We have a list of about 20 people at the moment who are deadly serious about wanting to buy youngsters we have due soon, and about 40 people on the list to send photos and info on foals born to who MIGHT be interested.... some mares have a lineup of people waiting for their foals......

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And remember that the list wil be even longer for carefully bred, well-produced 3 year olds in 4 years time when (hopefully) the recession is over and there are no 3 year olds around.

If you have the assured facilities and knowledge to produce such an animal and run it on for a few years then this is certainly the time to do it -- and this applies as much to new mare owners 'breeding just for themselves' (not my favourite group of breeders as many of you know!) as to the larger more commercial studs and everyone in between if their breeding programmmes can cope with this.

And BTW, the horses being destroyed now for 'economical' reasons are not those that were bred during the recession -- as the first of those have barely been born yet == but are the results of irresponsible overbreeding in the good years (especially in the Irish Celtic Tiger years as the OP originally mentioned Ireland I think).

The equine version of a 3/5 year fiscal drag is what is in operation here :-(.
 
and this applies as much to new mare owners 'breeding just for themselves' (not my favourite group of breeders as many of you know!)

Why? Are you inferring that those of us who breed for ourselves take less notice of blood lines etc? That we dont look at our mare & choose the stallion that will compliment her? I am intrigued because I am such a breeder & yet I have manged to improve on the mare each time. My 1st attempt used an AHS premium AA stallion the 2nd mare went to a graded ID & she was awarded grade 1 & her daughter is in the Head stud book SHBS. The 2 we have now did not get shown as their predecessor's did because of work committments & injury. I have taken the HP route to breeding my horses because to date none of them have had the hang-ups that my bought horses did. I may not be so lucky with these 2 as they have not had as much time spent on them, but they both load, stand for the farrier, vet, catch (though I have seen other youngsters change once in work). They dont have any stable vices & are relaxed round people & other animals. Yes there are those that dont care & think they are getting a cheap horse by breeding, but I wish people would stop tarring us with the same brush. And no, I did not realise we were not your favourite group of people, but I do now.
 
Yes exactly Ciss - we wont be at all disappointed if some of our youngsters hang around til they are 3 or 4 and started under saddle - their value goes up dramatically and in that time we will have them out shown in hand as well..........

Sure it means that when going to shows we will be not only taking the truck but dragging the float behind it as well to enable us to take more horses - but hey, it would be worth it!!! (Gawd, all that plaiting up!! Sheesh!!!)...........

Our horses are our babies - we dont have human kids of our own so our fur kids are very much our family...........

People are liking that our babies are all sold well handled, they go off to their new homes very polite young people and know how to lead, tie up, have their feet picked out and trimmed, worming is no worries, their vaccinations are all done, and they are used to being groomed and loaded onto a float..... they also get used to having a trailing rope in the foaling yard where there is NOTHING to get caught on, so that they get used to ropes around their legs and stepping on a rope so that they wont panic if a rider falls or they get away and have the lead trailing........ and they get used to having balls bounced off of them as well - cheap beach balls and basketballs are a great training tool!!! They get balls bounced off their butts, shoulders and barrels........ and kicked around their legs............ til they dont react at all.........
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The only thing wrong with all of the above desensitising I mentioned is that getting photos with ears pricked is HARD because nothing phases them - they are used to goats, sheep, cows, we used to have a camel so that wasnt a problem with the youngsters who grew up with her around, cats and dogs going everywhere as well...........
 
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and this applies as much to new mare owners 'breeding just for themselves' (not my favourite group of breeders as many of you know!)

Why? Are you inferring that those of us who breed for ourselves take less notice of blood lines etc?

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No, sorry I ddi not mean that at all. By 'breeding for themseleves' I meant those that decide that they are going to breed a foal 'just like their old mare' becuase that was what suited THEM at the time and do this (ie do not upgrade, choose stallions with care etc) with the apparent ability to forecast exactly what they will be doing in 20 - 25 years time becuase they are determined that they will NEVER sell anything they breed -- and certainly aren't in any way keen to breed a better one.

This is a worold away from the knowledgable single mare owner or small breeder who aims to improve their stock every generation and is well aware of the true commercial benefit of doing this --- IOW breeding a better horse, which IF THEY KEEP IT will be of considerably more value than one they could consider bying as a young ridden or matire trained horse OR IF THEY SELL IT should at leats cover its costs becuase it has benbred with wider market requirements in mind

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And no, I did not realise we were not your favourite group of people, but I do now.

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The reeason you did not realise this is becuase I certainly do not consider you a member of that group. You are a knowldgeable small breeder (single mare owner) who is breeding and carefullly raising a competitive/marketable horse in an improving way so that it meets your future needs but is also commercially viable and I do apologise if anything I wrote made you think otherwise.
 
Apology accepted, I should grow a thicker skin. It is a subject though that niggles me, because as you know we have seen too many "very well bred" WB's bought into the UK that had no business being here. And what I mean by that is a much better horse (for less money probably by the time you take into account shipping costs) had already been bred here. If you can not find what you want here in the UK then yes import live or seman, but dont bring their offcasts. Someone once said to me that their offcasts were of better quality then you could buy here in the UK, I must be blind then. I have probably been very lucky because 2 of my mares have/are of unknown breeding (probably because someone could not either be bothered to register or their papers got lost). I took the risk with them, one proved me right & the other's offspring is too young yet.

I do believe though that people like myself do need to think long & hard before putting their mares in-foal, it is far from the cheaper option & if your circumstances change having to sell a foal/yearling/2yo is not as easy as selling one coming or already under saddle. The studs will make up for any short fall, because as it has been mentioned already there are too many horses & they are not all made up of cripples, aged, or badly bred animals. I saw a very nice 15hh reg Sec D mare at a sale, at 575gns as a 5yo she was too cheap. If her stud fee was £200, she was up to date with her vacinations, her feet looked well cared for & she was in good condition that alone would have costs more then 375 over 5yrs. I was told as a teenager if you are going to breed sell as a weaning or bite the bullet & keep them till they are under saddle, because it is harder to get their worth in-btwn, this person had no livery costs though. He was talking general of course as there will always be someone who will prove otherwise. My 3yo has cost £2210 in livery costs alone so you can see why there is a saying fools breed horses for wise men to ride.
 
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