Following on from Ciss poll....................

cruiseline

cruiseline

Well-Known Member
Joined
3 March 2005
Messages
3,211
Location
Shropshire & Dubai
www.ipcmedia.com
I have mares from the following stud books.

AES
AHS
Hanoverian
Hanoverian GB
KWPN
DWB
BWB
ISH
Oldenburg
CHAPS
SF
(I have probably forgotten some!!!!!!!!!)

They are usually inseminated with semen from abroad.

And I have to be a member with several societies to register my foals.

I have made the executive decision this year to register ALL of my mares with the AES studbook and from now on ALL my stock will be AES passported.

The pedigrees of my horses will not change regardless of which studbook provides them with a passport. Their parents will always be their parents at the end of the day.

I am fed up of sending paperwork here there and everywhere and getting forms to be completed that I can't even understand. My horses are British Bred and I feel that I want them in a British Based Studbook.

I can not understand that the writing on the front of a passport, could possibly make any foal more special from any another of similar breeding.

Thoughts please............
 
You are right. Professional Riders are only interested if the horse performs not what 'label' it has. At lower level who the horse is regestered with may slightly increase the value to people who do not understand. The most important thing and mostly as guides for other breeders is that they have papers showing bloodlines. There was a thread on here about the breeding of Pippa Funnells horse which most people said was unknown, does this influence the performance or the value of the horse? The development and upbrining of the foal as well as training plays a huge percentage in the success of the horse. Breeding gives you the start, and it is about narrowing the odds to producing a good horse, but you cannot just breed a top performing horse based on bloodlines and papers.
 
Agreed, what happens to the foal once it has moved on towards its competitive career, could be the make or brake factor for any sports bred youngster and would definately determine how far up the ladder it eventually does or doesn't go.

My objection is the passport stigma, which is seen so much and is ridiculous beyond belief.

I have bred a filly foal by Balou Du Rouet out of a Sandro mare. This foal will be registered AES. What I will not accept is that a foal bred from the same lines as my foal, but registered as an Oldenburg or Hanoverian is a more valuable foal because of its passport. The bloodlines are exactly the same, the passport no matter what colour, shape or form will never change that. If I put a Z after its name, would my foal then be of better quality.
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I really feel strongly that the British Breeders should stand their ground and register their British bred foals with a British based society.
 
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There was a thread on here about the breeding of Pippa Funnells horse which most people said was unknown

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Actually it was Toytown ridden by Zara Phillips

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The development and upbrining of the foal as well as training plays a huge percentage in the success of the horse. Breeding gives you the start, and it is about narrowing the odds to producing a good horse, but you cannot just breed a top performing horse based on bloodlines and papers.

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Couldn't agree more, getting people to realise that top bloodlines don't automatically make a top horse but is the just the first step in a very long road is one of the great problems that make improving the performance of British-bred stock a somewhat difficult task. TBH it is the buyers that look at the pedigrees NOT the riders the buyers put on them to bring the horse on and it is the breeders and buyers that need to be more aware of what qualities the riders need in their horses to win competitions *over and above* a certain egnetic predisposition to do well in a particular aspect of the sport.

How accurately the stallion and mare grading systems refect those demands is a matter of conjecture -- and of course serious competition between the studbooks which is why the interstallion project ran into trouble -- but it is true athletic rideability that will always win out in the en, not something liek the fact that today's fashionable colour for dressage stallions is black regardless of their paces or temperament.
 
I totally agree. What ever the problems with SHBGB I register with them. Once there is a passport with the horses breeding in it I dont see whawhat difference thereis in the colour and name on the front. It is crazy the overstamping that has to go on and the cost involved, At one time one of my mares had three different passorts but she was still an advanced mare by the same stallion out of the same mare!
It would be lovely to think microchipping would simplyfy things But I suspect that is just a pipedream.
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My objection is the passport stigma, which is seen so much and is ridiculous beyond belief.

Totally agree and have said this before. The best bred horse we have is registered with AES and do we care - no. Yes it is nice to have BRITISH bred Zangersheide horses (we bred the first using AI), with a nice passport and branded, but we are long past the stage of worrying about evaluations, gradings (unless it is for stallions but then that is another subject), passports etc etc as it makes no difference at all and as you say is just another additional expense.
 
Quote:
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There was a thread on here about the breeding of Pippa Funnells horse which most people said was unknown


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Actually it was Toytown ridden by Zara Phillips


My teachers always said I should pay more attention in class
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I am not knocking anyone or organizations in my comments by the way and it is up to individuals what they do. I just speak fom experience and as someone who has come across so many brick walls.
 
.........................which is why Zanbgersheide are creating Zangersheide UK, so that British bred horses are recognised as that. The AES was/is owned by several large breeders in Holland, please don't believe otherwise.

What other British based stud book will give you all of these:

Membership 50€ per year, from which you get the super magazine six times a year, the stallion catalogue and dvd and the foal auction catalogue

Registration at your home/yard, yes that's a personal visit from our man to your place

Z papers DO add value to foals in the UK

Be part of a stud book that after only 15 years in existance is already number 11 in the world, and carries a great deal of prestige.

A televised foal festival, with the best foals (if they are up to standard) being invited to Lanaken for the Z foal auction in September.

The ability to sell your Z young stock via the monthly magazine which goes out around the world

The ability to advertise your Z youngstock on our website

3 year old stallion approvals that mean something

Development of the young horse series as seen last week at Quainton, which you'll see on the TV next week.

This young horse series will give breeders a shopwindow for their stock (regardless of registration)

We also hold a number of highly regarded events throughout the year, which are incredibly interesting to breeders.

If you can find another stud book that can beat this, then you should join them.
 
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Z papers DO add value to foals in the UK



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This is the whole ridiculous point, why should they!!!!!!!!!!

Unless the brand is done in gold leaf, therefore making it more valuable due to the precious metal content, it does not change the genetic make-up of any foal as far as I am aware.

People have been brain washed into thinking that an initial or a letter or a brand will instantly transform their youngster into a world beater, laughable really. There is absolutely no reason to think that a foal with a Z after its name or a branded foal is superior to one that doesn't have one.

Are you telling me that if I purchased a Z registered mare and put her to a Z registered stallion and registered the subsequent foal with the AES or SHBGB or who ever, that foal is a lesser quality foal than if I put a Z after its name.

I personally don't think so. I am not trying to knock the Z stud book or any other for that matter, it is just the logic behind it that I don't understand.

As soon as we get the general public to understand that the breeding on a piece of paper is what it is regardless of the colour, brand or stamp on the passport, then that is when British Breeding will be appreciated. If all British Breeders registered their foals with British Based stud books, the stigma would soon go away.
 
I do think Kan as a point though. If Z are going to do an all out marketing campaign and really push their profile in the UK, then Z registered foals will benefit from that marketing. One of the reasons Hanoverians are so popular (for example) is that it is a pretty fabulous marketing machine behind them.
If the good old SHB would start to act more professionally and really promote and market sHB registered foals (after all they are a WBFSH member) there would be less discrimation between the Hann, Z or SHB foal. The big mainland Europe registries have big marketing budgets and have been promoting and developing their sporthorses in this manner for longer than we have.
 
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I do think Kan as a point though. If Z are going to do an all out marketing campaign and really push their profile in the UK, then Z registered foals will benefit from that marketing. One of the reasons Hanoverians are so popular (for example) is that it is a pretty fabulous marketing machine behind them.
If the good old SHB would start to act more professionally and really promote and market sHB registered foals (after all they are a WBFSH member) there would be less discrimation between the Hann, Z or SHB foal. The big mainland Europe registries have big marketing budgets and have been promoting and developing their sporthorses in this manner for longer than we have.

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Agreed, if and when it happens, then maybe I would consider registering my foals with the Z stud book.

This decision would be based purely on the additional benefits that would be offered by the stud book, not because I think my foals would be of a better quality.
 
Ken

I knew the AES when it was the Anglo Dutch Studbook so I know the history.

As mentioned we have been dealing with Zangersheide for over 10 years having bred the first Z AI horse in the UK along with another 2 and discussed many matters with them in the past to make it easier for UK breeders so there is no need for the sales pitch. I beleive that Zangersheide are a fantastic marketing machine and have influenced many breeders into raising the level of breeding, ourselves included. They are more commercially minded than any other studbook and have built an industry from it and I totally respect that. At the end of the day, like all studbooks, they are a business, with a brand, who just happen to do it better than most at selling it.

People get out of it what they put into it, but what I am saying is that it doesn't matter what papers a horse has got, it is the quality and the breeding and if it meets requirments that will sell it.

Are you saying that a stallion graded with multiple studbooks will produce more expensive offspring from one stud book than another?

As I said previously, it is only the uninformed that will buy a horse just because it a 'label' on it.

With your pitch, perhaps you should mention that they have quality stallions that members can use as really that is a bit more important than getting magazines and really would help in the development of British Breeding.
 
................well it's very kind of you to mention the Z stallions, and everyone reading might a little surprised to read this, but the semen is not the main thrust of Z's expansion policy. We are expanding the stud book first, and believe that the stud farm (stallions) will benefit from this expansion.

I'm pleased that you think our stallions will improve British breeding, I think so to, as some of those motherlines are superb. The intensity of the jumping genes in each stallion is phenomenal, and they should all lift the standard in the UK.

But first Z are concerned about giving British breeders methods of breeding within the free market and selling their horses at whichever age, which has always been a complaint within the UK that there are no outlets. With our media, small breeders can compete with larger breeders and promote their youngstock around the world.
 
I think part of the problem in this country is that because our breed societies (particularly SHBGB) are so lax with their promotion of the breeding side that most people feel they are 'unfashionable' where as there are still a huge contingent of people who will buy a horse with particular breeding / passport because it is 'fashionable'. We need more education really and I'm not knocking any particular breed society for pushing their own aims forward as it's how any business will operate (and that, at the end of the day, is what studbook owners are).
 
One that none of you should ever forget, is the customer service that you get from me. It is the best, without arguement or question. You can get hold of me 8am 'til 9pm everyday Monday through Sunday. Try getting hold of any of the other registries in the UK....................................don't hold you breath BTW.

(don't try to get hold of me on Saturday night, I've got a party in Monaco, and I'm leaving the phone in the hotel)
 
As someone who has had a youngster branded, I would say it is not a bad idea if you can actually see it!! Why because it is a clear form of identification. If I had not had mine MC'd it would have given someone a place to start if ever his passport went "missing". I think it disgraceful that anyone should be able to breed a horse & not register it or in the past just lose its ppr work if it had been registered. How many posts have been placed by people looking for the history of their horses/ponies. Someone knows because someone bred the animal. Even if you have bought a mare in-foal without knowing it was expecting, it could still have been registered because back in the 80's there was the HIS ID register. There are too many good horses in this country with no breeding history. The TBF society show 4 generations where as the ID show 3, there is no set standard. If you want to show at County then the horse has to be registered or overstamped by the SHBS. For me that turned out to be a complete waste of money because when my 2yo was a yearling he was kicked on his hock which has left a blemish, so has ruled him out. I think the whole thing is too fragmentated anyway, & there is not enough working together. Sorry
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