Following on from "daughter's horse" post

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skewby

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I am utterly amazed at the number of posters on that thread, who talk about horses they own/have owned who were "dangerous".

Are they really problem horses, or are we all labelling ordinary horses, exhibiting a bit of horse behaviour, as problems?

Or are there LOADS of messed up horses out there?

Genuine question. And FWIW I think the OP in that thread is eminently sensible and has far more of a conscience than many, many people I have seen go through horses like disposable contact lenses at livery yards.
 
I think this is an interesting topic as most horses 'problems' are merely exhuberance or spooking ie natural horse behaviour.
Im sure many people overhorse themselves and over time horsey learns they can get away with all sorts and they are then labelled 'problem horses'. Its very hard to admit that you are overhorsed but im sure if more people faced up to it there would be a lot less problem horses.
Even Ellen Whitaker at Olympia had to ride a bucking bronco to the puissance wall - now to many new horse owners that would be a dangerous problem horse and many riders would have been on the floor - but to a top rider that is one of the best showjumpers around.
I think there are many more problem people than problem horses.
 
Yes there are a lot of messed up horses out there. generally made that way through bad handeling/lack of understanding and pain.

I only ever take on these such horses and have to say that once the problems/pain is tken away they are super horses, in the right hands
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Hey lovely.

Omg your ranting about problem horses? That is soooooooo unlike you!!!!x

I looked for the other post but cant find it (and lost interest to be honest!)

I think the majority of problem horses would not be problems in the correct hands. That does not mean that I think there are no "gone in the head" horses but I think that often little problems turn into bigger ones when riders are either scared or unaware of what they could/should do it those circumstances.

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Sadly there are A LOT of horses with issues out there
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I know a lot of people won't ride my mare which is one of the reasons I would never sell her. When I helped my friend look for a pony for her kids earlier in the year I was shocked at the amount of nutcases for sale
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Some issues can be worked with, some can't. Sadly most are caused by their owners
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I think the OP in that post is doing the right thing btw - no sense in selling a potentially dangerous horse into a very uncertain future.
 
I posted about mine that I had pts after 5 1/2 yrs of ownership.

Within months of me buying him as a rising 4 yr old, he fractured his skull in the stable.

Over the years, his behaviour deteriorated to such a point that I was warned time and again that he would kill me. I couldn't sell him and I was loathe to give him away as I couldn't guarantee that he wouldn't be ridden.

About 8 months after having him pts, I bumped into a friend at WHW (who knew him from the age of 5 1/2 - 7 1/2) and she said they would have done the same if he ended up there. I felt my decision was somewhat vindicated.

It was found that he had scarring on his vasovagal (I think) nerve in the poll area during his PM.

It was a very sad day but it was the best I could've done for the horse.
 
Well, mine reared bolt upright with me three times today for turning away from his friend ?
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A very very old story for him.. this is his usual trait. But besides that he's spooky, nappy, has bucked, is point blank awful to jump, drops his shoulder, has bolted, is awful to load, has put me in A&E and will no doubt be a swine to clip. I've never had the guts to try
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ETS - most of these problems are more or less extinct now! He's 80% good to load, he's had time off from jumping to get me in order, he's a lot less spooky now he knows me and he hasn't bucked/ bolted in a looong time.

So, not really 'dangerous.' ?


I think the OP is right too
 
Yep. I have a messed up pony. Whilst the vet thinks he's coming up fourteen, others think he's older. If he's not in the mood, his list of issues are:

With every new rider he will handstand buck, spin, rear, drop a shoulder, bomb off.

If he's been stabled for more than a day he is usually led out in a halter with a chain across his nose. Any less and he'll take one's arm out.

To add to the mix, he's laminitic, gets mild sweetitch, and has now developed stringhalt. Oh, and he's 13hh.

On the plus side, he never kicks, is brill with dentist, backman, vet, clipping. He's getting better with the farrier. Also he loves to hack out
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.

So, he's a 13hh problem, who is now retired. We think he's learnt over the years that humans weren't worth the paper they were written on and he'd really rather not bother thank you very much. Given his age, he's unlikely to get any better, though we try as much as we can given the lack of rider.
 
Think OP is doing the right thing in the case of her horse. Just a thought but maybe we were a little less sentimental about things in days gone by - something that was truly dangerous usually went on a quick one way trip to kennels or wherever. On the other hand I do also feel that sometimes horses are called 'dangerous', bolters, buckers or rearers etc when in effect they are not as Cample says often normal behaviour described in extreme terms. As you have posted before a true bolter is something else it doesn't just gallop off with you.

An example would be my sisters very good jumping pony - went JA but was a complete a*se to lead and would tow you jumping anything in his path if the mood took him - but an excellent pony who was incredibly succesful. Whereas I had an evil exmoor pony who did take a one way trip - kicked, bit, impossible to catch and dropped her shoulder when ridden at every opportunity - not ever going to be a safe childs pony.
 
Some horses are seriously messed up.

I posted on that original thread about my mare who was PTS and although I was a first time owner, I don't think I would be able to handle her today, 15 years and 7 horses later!

She was at a professional's yard and one day the rider drove to my house, I openned the door and she was standing there, visibly shaken! She said she had children and she could not afford to get killed so she would not ride Millie again
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After 4 years of trying everything I spoke to, amongst other people, a woman who run a racehorse rehabillitation centre, who recognised Millie's behaviour down to a T. She said that she only saw one horse in 100 who was like that. The first one she had, she tried to rehabillitate, thought she had it cracked, re-homed it and it nearly killed the new owner. Since then she prefered to PTS rather than risk it again.
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I have a "dangerous" horse. She was ridable (when sound), but would often bolt/bugger off (I don't want an argument about what exactly is bolting!) whilst being mounted or during the first 10 minutes of work and tear-arse round the arena pin-balling off fences and getting rid of me.
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Its still on my conscience that maybe she's just not met the right person and someone else might click with her. I know she's managed to show jump with a pro, but enough people have assured me that I'm at the higher end of confidence, determination and competence amongst amateurs, so if I can't deal with her, coming across someone who could and who would want to would be a hell of a task. Plus, now she's lame so it doesn't matter!
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i think 99% of horses who are labelled as dangerous/unrideable/unsellable... actually aren't.

plenty of owners seem to take pride in telling stories of how badly behaved their horse can be, how they are the only person in the world who can cope etc etc.

i have had a few of these so called unrideable horses in to reschool or bought myself and only 1 didn't straighten out- i tried for 18 months, admitted defeat and gave him to my very good, very tough 4**** eventing boss who tried for 6 months and then sadly had him PTS.

i have had a few horses come in who went off to new homes/back to original homes and after 2 or 3 months reverted to bad behaviour.

one horse yo-yo'd back to me 3 times before the owner admitted defeat- she could barely get into the saddle before getting launched; i could hack him in a plain snaffle and never have to pick up a rein or so much as tap him with the stick, he jumped beautifully but just needed a few boundaries and he behaved like a lamb.

there is the occasional horse which really cannot be turned back to the straight path but most owners secretly seem to like having their 'dangerous' horses as they seem to think it makes them a better rider by battling their wild beast
 
quote............. some horses are seriously messed up. by humans!!! they need guidance. control;, respect both ways etc.......... a bit like children. if you want to have a horse work it hard and appropriately, dont over feed etc. if you want to stroke its coat get an oldie, a rabbit or a guinea pig.
 
QR
i posted earlier about my horse being dangerous! i used that word half to get people to look at the post (sorry) because i need some brains on this and also because over the last few weeks she has broken my dads ribs and got herself into dodgy situations cos she bolts when being led!
this is a brand new problem she has developed over last few weeks (i've owned her for 2.5yrs)
i have looked at her diet and routine - no changes
looked at how she is handled tried different things (bridle etc)
and on tuesday when they reopen will be gettin a vet to investigate pain!

i dont think i'm overhorsed but i think u could be correct that some people are and let themselves be walked over
i also agree that some whose who have issues for some people are winners for others!!!!
 
QR-in 25+years around horses I can hand on heart say that I have only ever met 1 horse who could have been considered dangerous. He was 17 hands of pure fury. He would attack man and beast alike. In the time he was on the yard he killed one liveries dog and severely injured YO's dog.
He had no sense of danger, in as much as it was nothing to run through stables and cause himself injury if it meant he could to get at another horse.
YO tried EVERYTHING and I mean everything but after 3 years and various injuries had to admit defeat and have him PTS.
 
Not ever horse that has a problem is bad, sometime it's pain in mouth, joints what ever. Have owned a mare that when I bought her you couldn't go into stable with her, bedding to the back of stable, any young girl with blonde hair and basball cap she went for with teeth and I mean teeth. I've owned Angel for over 6 years and it's taken time but she's lovely except for the feet, but I put a nuzzle on and she's getting better. The no goes are her teeth, injections and other horses, just wish I could get her teeth done again, but last time she was a danger to me and the vet, just hope I could get my hands on the person that did this to her in the past.
 
My horse came with a 'dangerous' label. The reality is, he just had a bad time in the past and needed a chance to be taken to show what a good horse he can be.

With patience, re-training and correct management - he is fine, in fact, I couldn't ask for a more trying horse.

Yes, there are dangerous horses out there - but I think the majority of them are 'made' rather than born. I personally, don't think it helps that so many people seem to have a 'throw away' attitude, including when it comes to horses.
 
Im scared to post anything, as I seem to be the terrible
out of touch with reality, cant train a horse, dimwit, treehugger and I cant remember every other insult I got..
as well, as saying i was going to be run down by a bus!!

But I believe it just depends on how the horse has been treated and how they are trained to be a humans companion.
All of my horses have had problems, all kinds, but I can honestly say they all worked through it, and I can compete them all. I think its alot down to time, patience, and kindness.
 
QR
Just my opinion but...
Any horse is potentially dangerous, any horse can hurt you without ever meaning to. And any person can cause a horse to hurt them, again without meaning to, by doing something that frightens or hurts that horse. It could be as simple as carryng a whip with a horse that has had a few too many wallops in the past unbeknown to you - for that horse to defend itself would make total sense from the horse's point of view but from the human's point of view could be totaly unexpected.

If a horse does do something to hurt someone, there will be a reason behind it, whether that is physical or mental. Some of the reasons can be addressed, and others can't.

There are definitely plenty of horses out there with real issues, that need special homes, and there are definitely some that are sadly beyond help.

IMO, if a person ends up with such a horse by accident or design and they have tried all that they can, they must think very carefully about what to do next. It is not fair to pass that horse from pillar to post.
 
Well, I think very few horses are born dangerous. With the ones that are dangerous, generally something in their life has made them that way. And of course as has been said it depends on the level of experience of the handler and the situation.

The only truly dangerous horse I have handled/ridden was a stallion that used to throw people off, then turn round and jump on them while they were still on the ground. He put quite a few professional riders in hospital. He never so much as threatened me, partially I suspect as I was very respectful of him and never asked 'questions' like a pro rider would. Very much we 'discussed' things and although I was firm I never tried to force him or ask anything unreasonable. His foals were naturally very 'cheeky' and as a youngster this stallion had seriously frightened his owner and ended up being beaten and starved to try and 'tame' him. Poor, poor horse. He also had undiagnosed back problems which I suspect was why he used to throw people off in the first place. Having a rider fall off can be very scarey for some horses so it may have been fear that caused him to turn round and jump on his rider. I really don't know. With him I felt he was a very good horse underneath it all and it was just a nasty twist of fate that meant he was kept entire and sold to an inexperienced home. If he had been gelded as a youngster and sold to a home that could cope with his 'cheeky' ways I think he would never have caused anyone any problems at all.

I think many people do enjoy having problem horses. Some people search them out and like the rehabilitation side of training, some people just buy the wrong horse and fall in love then can't part with them. What is sad are the horses that are labelled dangerous etc when they just don't want to do the job they were bought for or have undiagnosed pain, and start telling their owners about the problem the only way they know how such as rearing etc.
 
I doubt there are many truely' dangerous' horses, but plenty who are just very messed up or quirky.

HOWEVER, I think there are a fair number of horses are are too 'dangerous' to sell responsibly. Yes, there are a few people out there who may 'fix' them, but there are many many more who won't and statsically it's highly likely the poor horse would end up in one of those homes.

I've had quirky horses who would become 'dangerous' in the wrong home, but thankfully there are plenty of homes where they'd be fine. I just had to be careful who they went to.

The horses I'd count as 'dangerous' are those for who the 'perfect home' is next to non-existant.
 
It all boils down to what the individual sees as/calls a problem, whether they have the expertise and knowledge required (on top of the time and money) to work through the possibilities and then, in the worst case scenario, remove the horse (in whichever way) from further potential damage to itself or others.

I draw the line at serial rearing, bucking and napping. I do not have the resources nor inclination to deal with them and do not want to risk injury. This is not to say they should all be summarily PTS, but I wouldn't even 'enter the ring' to see if I could sort it.

As the OP said (and me also in the post which gave rise to this one) it's mostly humans which are the cause of the problems. To quote myself

<font color="blue">After all, he'd be a perfectly fine horse if he was as they were intended - part of a herd running wild and without intervention or demands from humans. This is the part I personally struggle with - having to remove the horses who don't conform to our wishes or desires. </font>

I'm protecting myself emotionally, too. You can't fix them all and better to never start what you can't finish. On the other hand, if one of my own developed problems, then of course I'd see them through to the end, but I'd never set out to rehabilitate one.
 
I agree with henandhan.....I did up until 3 weeks ago have a very naughty horse, he died age approx 30, and I kept him for 20 years....well actually in his elder years he became very calm and gentle, I got him from a sanctuary and he had a halter grown into his head and it had to be removed as all his flesh had grown around it....so their was no illusion he had not been mis treat.....I was also told that he had kicked the girl off that rode the horse at the sanctuary and broken her ribs and collar bone.
I took him, and he was indeed a wild one, he just seemed feral really,he was sent to be broken again, as we thought maybe he had not been correctly, and the gentleman that worked with him said "he was a stubborn horse, with immense strength, and by far the hardest he had ever worked on" he did come back slightly improved, but still dangerous he kicked, reared when lead and he basically did not want to go no further, could not be boxed, would bite small children, and would try to kill other horses by running them into fences, he would not wear a coat and would rip it off his back
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, he chased people for fun and turn to kick them, but he loved dogs and would allow them to share his food
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he alslo loved a baby goat but tried to kill it's mammy
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He would throw me off in traffic for no reason and walk in it soundly other days, he would throw me if another horse got ahead of him whilst out hacking, if being ridden in the field he would also kick once he had thrown me......as I got older and stronger I began to manage him alot better and became very confident with handling him, he would let me do anything with him on the ground and loved to be groomed and fussed and would fall asleep, and follow me like a dog, he hated strangers, he would not let a vet, dentist or farrier near him in his younger years, he royally peeved off alot of farriers and I had to go through a fair few just to get his feet trimmed he would not be shod in the end.
I kept riding him and never gave up, and would always re mount even after he broke my arm, I only stopped writing as I got to big/heavy and he got older.
I would never have let him go, as I knew potentially in the hands of another he could have killed or been killed, I had space and he was happy in his field, he would actually throw u when his field was just about out of site, and run back and stand at the gate to be back in.
Good job he was never ill until the end.

I work with dogs and they can 99% of the time be worked with and rehabilitated, and as dangerous as a dog can be, they could never be as dangerous as a horse with the same issues.
I never bought my horse to compete and although I classed my self as a good little rider I was never horsey knowledgable that I could turn a serious problem around, he was just a fun happy hacker, I got the fun/jsut not the happy
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, not like a dog, I think u obs have to have experience and knowledge and there is not a never ending supply of that compared to the amount of horses and dogs in the world sadly.
 
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quote............. some horses are seriously messed up. by humans!!! they need guidance. control;, respect both ways etc.......... a bit like children. if you want to have a horse work it hard and appropriately, dont over feed etc. if you want to stroke its coat get an oldie, a rabbit or a guinea pig.

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I don't know anyone's experience on here, nor do I know what kinds of difficult horses you have all had to deal with, but anyone who thinks that every horse can be sorted out by cutting its feed, working it and not spoiling it, is rather naive. Overfeeding, underworking, etc. are very common causes of problems and not usually something experienced riders cannot overcome, so I would not describe such horses as truly dangerous in the first place.

By 'dangerous horse' I mean a horse that has had every veterinary investigation under the sun to check for problems but seems fine, is fed, turned out and ridden appropriately, has had more than one professional try to rehabilitate it using different techniques, but is still dangerous to handle and ride. Millie got one professional off by spooking sideways to ricochet the rider on the wall, the rider hit her head and was dazed, then proceeded to buck and rear until the rider fell off, M then stomped on her on purpose and walked back to her stable - that is a dangerous horse no matter what you feed it, how long you ride it or how little you cuddle it. She would fence walk from the moment she was turned out, rear and try to strike you when you went to bring her in, then proceed to box walk the moment she came in, so ever retirement was not an option...
 
QR

No such thing as a messed up horse, just an awful lot of idiots who are able to buy horses.

Horses do not comprehend evil, they do not have morals. We have bred them for centuries to be tame, placid and accept a rider on their back.

Anything that deviates from the above has bumped into an idiot with too much money and not enough brains.

I will ride any "dangerous horse" because the majority just need a kind hand. I have rescued a couple, schooled on a few more and seen what being on loan to an idiot can do to a previously impecably behaved horse.

Horses are not cars. You cannot replace the parts a previous owner [****] up. You can't knock out the dents. You have to deal with horses who show symptoms of severe aggression and fear when triggered.

And some horses never recover.

For them, there is no other option but the bullet. Some horses can settle with one home and never be sold, but if you had an accident tomorrow, who would look after them? If you died, who would buy them?

IMO most horses can be cured by restoring their trust in mankind. Some horses, for no known reason, cannot be cured.
And they won't ever be until we learn to talk horse, or they learn to talk human.
 
No horse is born dangerous. However they are all individuals, and in the same way some people are nervous, and others are cocky, so are horses. Therefore no 2 horses will behave in the same way in a situation. It is our job to work with our horses to find the best training method for their personality. There is a 1 method suits all policy that is often used both by professionals, and amatures alike. IMO this is not a method used out of cruelty, but due to a lack of understanding for the horse. In a professional yard this is to create a quick turn around in horses, they are often not prepared to spend the time getting to know the horse. For amatures this is often due to a professional telling them how to do it, the problem comes when the professional doesn't know the horse, they reel off the 1 method suits all way of doing it. The amature then follows this to the letter, but stops listening to their horses in the process. The line of communication breaks down between the horse and owner, and the end result is a 'problem' horse. I have had several "problem"/"dangerous" horses given to me. These horses arrive frightened, and with a very low self esteem. The behaviours then exhibited vary from striking out or kicking at you, to not being caught, to biting and rearing up. A frightened horse is a dangerous horse to be around. I have found I have to be a calm, constant figure. If I am always around, never wavering, just being there, they will begin to feel confident with me. I don't ask then questions I am just there. Once they are confident in me, then their real personality can start to emerge. From this I can devise a suitable retraining programme, based on their needs. At all times the horse looks to me as a leader, and one must be confident in what they are doing, the slightest hesitation will pass to the horse. From this point the horse needs to begin to gain confidence in himself. If this is not achieved the horse will be sold, but the original problem will probably re emerge. The horse must learn to be lead by his human, but have the independance to cope when things change. Until this point has been reached the horse will still be a "problem". These horses are never suitable for a novice or rider lacking confidence, but can with time turn into the most trustworthy and loyal horses you can find.
 
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No horse is born dangerous. However they are all individuals, and in the same way some people are nervous, and others are cocky, so are horses.

The horse must learn to be lead by his human, but have the independance to cope when things change. Until this point has been reached the horse will still be a "problem". These horses are never suitable for a novice or rider lacking confidence, but can with time turn into the most trustworthy and loyal horses you can find.

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But its foolish to believe they all will. What about the horses that won't or can't learn? What should you do when you are on the third or fourth professional and their methods aren't getting you anywhere, and you're running out of money?
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Some horses just need time and an experienced person. Some horses need A P McCoy and sadly they are never going to get him. Most of us who can only ride horses whose controls work reasonably well, also need to know when to give up a lost cause, which some horses really are for various (sometimes mystery) reasons.
 
I drew the line at continual, successive upright rearing combined with broncing and napping, when being ridden, led out to the field and being rugged. After having had all saddle, back and teeth done. I'm very experienced and I could ride this horse who was fine 95% of the time. But I don't have the time to waste on a horse like this which could seriously injure me, nor do I have the patience to have what I can and cannot do when I ride dictated to me by a horse. I didn't like this horse's temperament - very exciteable very quickly and when excited, got nasty with no regard to his own or human safety.

OTOH when you hear of mild buckers, slightly naughty nappers and the like being labelled dangerous, its very frustrating. Or people who buy a new horse, expect it to behave impeccably straight away and reject it after a week.
 
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