Following on from flashes and being on the bit

[Dizzydancer]

My horse is in a flash with a NS lozenge snaffle, its not overly tight as he doesnt cross his jaw but he gets his tongue over the bit. he only came out of racing 1year ago, and started reschooling about 2months ago. At first he used to 'smile' alot but now he is more aware of whats being asked that has settled until he starts something new. My instructor and myself think its his stress relief. He does work in a good consistent outline when asked and this he's becoming much better in self carraige aswell. When schooled he is using his backend and tracking up very well.

Am i doing it wrong?
He goes nicely and in time i hope to try loosening the flash off as much as possible aiming to remove it except for fast work when i think i may need extra control. Someone mentioned putting a tongue gaurd on his bit but im not convinced as i think he may have had that in racing so he might panic he is going racing again.

 

[j1ffy]

If it helps him and it's adjusted in such a way that he can mouth the bit (which it sounds like it is), I don't see a problem with it. My boy actually got worse with the flash on but goes much better in a drop (again, adjusted loosely) - horses for courses!!

 

[Wagtail]

My horse is in a flash with a NS lozenge snaffle, its not overly tight as he doesnt cross his jaw but he gets his tongue over the bit. he only came out of racing 1year ago, and started reschooling about 2months ago. At first he used to 'smile' alot but now he is more aware of whats being asked that has settled until he starts something new. My instructor and myself think its his stress relief. He does work in a good consistent outline when asked and this he's becoming much better in self carraige aswell. When schooled he is using his backend and tracking up very well.

Am i doing it wrong?
He goes nicely and in time i hope to try loosening the flash off as much as possible aiming to remove it except for fast work when i think i may need extra control. Someone mentioned putting a tongue gaurd on his bit but im not convinced as i think he may have had that in racing so he might panic he is going racing again.

I'm afraid that I think you and your trainer are wrong on this one. Although losenge bits suit many horses, a few of them feel an unbearable pressure from them on the centre of their tongue. To try to get away from this pressure, they will use evasions such as getting their tongue over the bit or sticking it out to the side. Strapping the mouth closed forces them to endure the discomfort as they have no way of relieving it. I know you are not doing this intentially, but from your horses point of view his bridle has become a mild torture device. Sorry. I do not mean offence but there really is no other way of putting it. Please do your horse a favour and experiment with a few bits until you find one which suits him and which he does not put his tongue over. He is trying to tell you. Please listen to him.

 

[Bug2007]

I expect his issues are from having a guard on in the past.

I think you are doing the right thing by doing it all gradually.

My Ex racer was in a flash tight to start with as she was terrible, she has had it loosened gradually and now will school and hack even fast work without it on at all.

She still has it on when we go out to a comp as it provides that extra control at a party.

 

[Dizzydancer]

thanks for the replies.
Jiffy...thanks he certainly seems the happiest he has been in this bit and flash.
Wagtail i have experimented with all sorts of bits, i dont want anything stronger than a snaffle as he is soft in the mouth, and this is the only bit he doesnt try to knock me out with. i understand where you are coming from and i am not happy about it but i do think after 7years of racing, i need to try and get him out of the habit by using the flash, as without he is not in my control by having tongue over bit. If you can reccomend a snaffle for a TB that will encourage him to mouth the bit but prevent him putting his tongue over, if i havnt tried it before i will certainly give it a go. However i also think its not torture for him as he happily accepts his bit and bridle and being sensitive thing he is, if it was that terrible he would let me know in a much more physical way!! As he did when his back was sore!
Bug i agree with you i think after 7years of racing im sure he had many gadgets whacked on to prevent this! We have our first party at the end of the month, that should be fun after i am away for aweek before it!!

 

[Bug2007]

Good luck at your first party, i'm sure you'll be absolutly fine. You'll learn his every move and like and dislike.

If you find he starts to pull on you, if you where a neck strap of breast plate, give a tuck on that while loosening the reins. Find that quite effective on those who have been raced or are in racing.

 

[Lolo]

Reg 'smiles' too- bares his front teeth when he's worried or being introduced to new work. His teeth are fine and he enjoys his work and we too believe it's his comfort blanket. He also goes in a flash at comps, although at home he now goes without as an attempt to wean him off it although he goes massively better with. We think it's because he finds in comforting? We just let him have his things- he's in a happy mouth, loose ring, french link type snaffle with no martingale unless hes jumping (never used, just in case) and a loose cavesson noseband- tried a drop and he hated it, tried a grakle and he hated it. Hopefully, he'll not have a flash by the end of this year for competing but he works properly forwards and over his back with and without.

He's in no physical pain, he's a chilled and healthy horse- he just has his things and we let him (he lives out 24/7 as well because he gets a bit cluastrophobic, and he sweats like billy-o in the lorry, despite having a chilled appearance?).

(also an ex-racer, out for nearly 4 years and has been reschooled for 18 months)

ETA- it's taken him ages to learn to settle and relax at comps but he's really good now and hopefully his scores are reflecting that. Enjoy because the journey is amazing- Reg has gone from a weak little TB to a huge great lad with massive shoulders and an amazing attitude. Now he's doing 1m ODEs and is oozing confidence when last year he was having meltdowns whenever things went wrong. Worth sticking out the stress- they are such sensitive souls.

 

[Wagtail]

If you can reccomend a snaffle for a TB that will encourage him to mouth the bit but prevent him putting his tongue over, if i havnt tried it before i will certainly give it a go.

This one is good as it is curved to avoid tongue pressure and also to avoid the single joint hitting the roof of the mouth. There is nothing about it that would PREVENT a horse from putting his tongue over the bit, but it certainly does not cause any tongue pressure so you would at least know that it isn't discomfort making your horse do it. http://www.tacksales.co.uk/product.php?productid=22196?MMCF_Google_Base_Feed

 

[Tnavas]

Generally they don't get a tongue layer on the bit but instead have their tongues tied - horrific but often the case.

You could try either this bit - An unjointed with a Cambridge mouth

or this one - designed to prevent the horse from putting his tongue over the bit. Use it with a plain cavesson and you should be fine.

 

[Dizzydancer]

Lolo that sounds very similar to my boy! Even with having just a year at grass he has blossomed into a huge machine!! We are getting better! I am looking forward to it and yes do have the neck strap on breastplate for that exact reason!!
Thanks wagtail i tried this bit originally he hated it, i do still have it so could give it ago again to see if now he works he is better. He does seem to like the roller though as he 'plays' with it. He is terrible in fixed mouths and not great in a normall jointed either.
Evelyn thanks, unfortunately the first into an option, i tried on very similar/the same but he doesnt like fixed bars just leans and then has a major strop when nothing happens (not worth me coming off to stress him through it). I havnt tried the bottom one though so will definately look into that.

 

[mystiandsunny]

Bit-wise, I found for my TB it wasn't the shape/construction of the snaffle that made a difference, but the material it was made from. Sweet-iron bits taste yummy and encourage mouthing and saliva production. Perhaps worth a try? Mine was only £15 and we've never looked back.

 

[siennamum]

OP You have a kind bit, and a flash done up loosely. I really think you are worrying too much if you are concerned by comments by armchair experts on here that this combination may be in any way harmful or cruel..

You sould really sensible and sensitive to your horse, you also sound like you are making real progress. Because lots of people on here have theoretical experience rather than actual experience, issues like bitting can get taken over by people who talk rubbish.

Horses (as chestnut cob has said) haven't read those books and will use evasions, not because they are in agony, but because they would like to work in a less strenous way. My youngster currently is going through a bearing down with gob open phase, because self carriage is hard work. I may put a loose flash on him, to ensure he isn't successful in this tactic. It's no crime to use a gadget like a flash - as you are doing OP, to correct an evasion for a short term.

 

[Dizzydancer]

Thanks guys!
Mysti...my bit at mo is a sweet iron version.
Sienna...you speak alot of sense. I will probably end up sticking with my routine as it is suiting him and i am hoping it will only be in short term!

 

[chestnut cob]

Horses (as chestnut cob has said) haven't read those books and will use evasions, not because they are in agony, but because they would like to work in a less strenous way.

I think your last point is an important one... though it might look like it in photos and books, not all horses *love* to work and an awful lot, particularly our leisure horses, don't find it easy. I cycle and run - I don't always particularly enjoy it and it can be pretty hard, but I know it's good for me so I continue to do it. You can't explain that to a horse and sometimes, IMHO, evasions are not because the horse is sore but simply because something is hard work.

You do have to experiment to find a bit and noseband combination that suits your horse but I don't think there's anything wrong with what you are using. Personally, my horse HATED the NS lozenge bit (he reared, took off and spent the entire ride throwing his head around every time I took up a contact...I put him back in his plain old SS eggbut FL and all was well ) but some horses go really well in them. I really do think that claiming the bridle has become a "mild torture device" is somewhat dramatic (post near start of page) - I know how sensitive a horse's mouth is but it sounds like you are riding tactfully and you don't have a harsh bit in. In your case OP, you have a horse who has raced so he is having to learn to use his body in a totally different way. IMHO you are bound to get evasions because it is hard for him.

Fancy (and expensive!!!) bits are all well and good but have you tried him in just a plain stainless steel French link, or similar? I've tried Mylers (various), NS, all sorts. Mine goes best in a cheap FL from Robinsons!

 

[Wagtail]

OP You have a kind bit, and a flash done up loosely. I really think you are worrying too much if you are concerned by comments by armchair experts on here that this combination may be in any way harmful or cruel..

You sould really sensible and sensitive to your horse, you also sound like you are making real progress. Because lots of people on here have theoretical experience rather than actual experience, issues like bitting can get taken over by people who talk rubbish.

Horses (as chestnut cob has said) haven't read those books and will use evasions, not because they are in agony, but because they would like to work in a less strenous way. My youngster currently is going through a bearing down with gob open phase, because self carriage is hard work. I may put a loose flash on him, to ensure he isn't successful in this tactic. It's no crime to use a gadget like a flash - as you are doing OP, to correct an evasion for a short term.

Rubbish! What makes you think these people have no experience? What a ignorant and insulting comment . I for one, am speaking from 30 years of experience in training horses. Yes, I have also researched, but my suggestions are born out by real experience.

Yes, the French Link is a nice mild bit, but try to suggest that it is suitable for every horse just because it is mild, really is poor advice. Unless of course, you think all horses are exactly the same?

 

[Aces_High]

Just had to add that I think it's hilarious that people think racehorses are used to wearing gadgets!!! Loose ring or eggbutt snaffle, the occassional cross noseband or Australian noseband, the odd ring bit. Pass a local person on their hack and they have more gadgets than the local tack shop has to offer!! Racehorses have their tongues tied to prevent them swallowing their tongues. If they have fleshy tongues or their tongues move when they gallop, they can be drawn back and interfer and block the airways. It's very easy with a pair of tights and it's taken off once the horse has returned from it's race/work.

 

[siennamum]

Yes, the French Link is a nice mild bit, but try to suggest that it is suitable for every horse just because it is mild, really is poor advice. Unless of course, you think all horses are exactly the same?

Who said that? I must have missed the post.

 

[chestnut cob]

Yes, the French Link is a nice mild bit, but try to suggest that it is suitable for every horse just because it is mild, really is poor advice. Unless of course, you think all horses are exactly the same?

No one suggested it would be suitable for all horses... in the other similar post about this I actually said all horses are different and that you have to try all sorts of noseband/bit combinations to find what suits your horse. It would make life easier if all horses liked/suited the same bit/noseband but the fact that they don't is the reason why I have a box full of bits and nosebands!

 

[Wagtail]

Who said that? I must have missed the post.

You said "OP You have a kind bit, and a flash done up loosely. I really think you are worrying too much if you are concerned by comments by armchair experts on here that this combination may be in any way harmful or cruel..
"
This implies that the OP should ignore comments from people suggesting she tries different bits. This implies that because the French link is mild people can assume that it is not causing the horse any problems. This is misleading advice. Some horses DO find a French link uncomfortable. Just because a bit is mild does not make it suitable for all horses.

 

[Wagtail]

No one suggested it would be suitable for all horses... in the other similar post about this I actually said all horses are different and that you have to try all sorts of noseband/bit combinations to find what suits your horse. It would make life easier if all horses liked/suited the same bit/noseband but the fact that they don't is the reason why I have a box full of bits and nosebands!

Sorry for the confusion. I was referring to SMs post.

 

[siennamum]

You said "OP You have a kind bit, and a flash done up loosely. I really think you are worrying too much if you are concerned by comments by armchair experts on here that this combination may be in any way harmful or cruel..
"
This implies that the OP should ignore comments from people suggesting she tries different bits. This implies that because the French link is mild people can assume that it is not causing the horse any problems. This is misleading advice. Some horses DO find a French link uncomfortable. Just because a bit is mild does not make it suitable for all horses.

I really think you have too much time on your hands.

 

[Amaranta]

OP You have a kind bit, and a flash done up loosely. I really think you are worrying too much if you are concerned by comments by armchair experts on here that this combination may be in any way harmful or cruel..

You sould really sensible and sensitive to your horse, you also sound like you are making real progress. Because lots of people on here have theoretical experience rather than actual experience, issues like bitting can get taken over by people who talk rubbish.

Horses (as chestnut cob has said) haven't read those books and will use evasions, not because they are in agony, but because they would like to work in a less strenous way. My youngster currently is going through a bearing down with gob open phase, because self carriage is hard work. I may put a loose flash on him, to ensure he isn't successful in this tactic. It's no crime to use a gadget like a flash - as you are doing OP, to correct an evasion for a short term.

Absolutely and totally agree with this.

I used a loosely fitted flash on a newly backed mare who was a worrier and also a bit of a princess, I used it in conjunction with a NS Starter bit, as she settled into her work I loosened the flash and now she works without one. I don't use a flash on all my young horses but in this case it was the right thing to do and the mare is now working happily.

It never fails to surprise me that someone who has never seen your horse can state categorically that both you and your trainer are wrong!

 

[Wagtail]

I really think you have too much time on your hands.

Some people always have to get personal when they run out of arguments. I thought we were discussing flash nosebands but feel free to start a thread about how much time Wagtail has on her hands if you like.

 

[Winklepoker]

I started my tb in a rubber straight bar with cheeks and upgraded when I felt the need. Has worked for me so far.

 

[Tnavas]

OP You have a kind bit, and a flash done up loosely.

I really think you are worrying too much if you are concerned by comments by armchair experts on here that this combination may be in any way harmful or cruel.

A rather rude and patronising comment to make

You sould really sensible and sensitive to your horse, you also sound like you are making real progress.

Because lots of people on here have theoretical experience rather than actual experience, issues like bitting can get taken over by people who talk rubbish.

Yet another unecessary comment to make

Horses (as chestnut cob has said) haven't read those books and will use evasions, not because they are in agony, but because they would like to work in a less strenous way.

My youngster currently is going through a bearing down with gob open phase,because self carriage is hard work.

Then back off him a bit and make his work easier otherwise the current behaviour will become ingrained. Correct work does not include tension and resistance

I may put a loose flash on him, to ensure he isn't successful in this tactic. It's no crime to use a gadget like a flash - as you are doing OP, to correct an evasion for a short term.

I too think you comment very rude an uneccesary - I have 45+yrs of experience, I train students and am also an examiner.

 

[Wagtail]

I too think you comment very rude an uneccesary - I have 45+yrs of experience, I train students and am also an examiner.

Evelyn, I definitely agree with you there (and also the comment about backing off her youngster a bit)

 

[Winklepoker]

Having worked in polo yards they use drop and cavesson nosebands together with a running gag and some had rawhide (dog chew type) nosebands too. Granted they werent in an outline but I can be pretty certain that they werent in any discomfort. It really is whatever works for the individual and THEIR horse, the poor OP was asking for advice not a squabbling group of know-it-alls!

 

[Tackytoe]

Well bloody said Winkle poker! ;-)

 

[trina1982]

My horse is in a flash with a NS lozenge snaffle, its not overly tight as he doesnt cross his jaw but he gets his tongue over the bit. he only came out of racing 1year ago, and started reschooling about 2months ago. At first he used to 'smile' alot but now he is more aware of whats being asked that has settled until he starts something new. My instructor and myself think its his stress relief. He does work in a good consistent outline when asked and this he's becoming much better in self carraige aswell. When schooled he is using his backend and tracking up very well.

Am i doing it wrong?
He goes nicely and in time i hope to try loosening the flash off as much as possible aiming to remove it except for fast work when i think i may need extra control. Someone mentioned putting a tongue gaurd on his bit but im not convinced as i think he may have had that in racing so he might panic he is going racing again.

Have you shown your horse from the ground how you want him to react to the bit? I only ask because I have started to become interested in Philippe Karls work, and one of the first things he does is show the horse how to react to the bit. From what i can gather (and very crudely interpreted by me to you) is that the bit is lifted into the corners of the mouth and the horse is encouraged to reach into the contact. When the correct contact and head/neck frame is established (in seconds-minutes) then the pressure is realeased and the horse allowed a little time to relax/digest this new information. Then it is repeated. There are also in hand flexions - all of which show the horse what reaction you want from a contact.
When i saw this type of bit introduction (for a consistently BTV horse being rehabbed) at a demo recently i was just left a bit, well, blown away by it really. The contact is a really crucial element and yet most of the time it is just assumed that the horse will know how to react to it - understandably their thoughts are often occupied with 'how do i evade it'.
This method though, as i understand it, is no quick fix but will lead to a horse that is 'on the bit' in the correct way (ie there is fluent communication between the hands and the mouth and the neck/head are set biomechanically correctly) and the horse is allowed to express himself in his mouth. Slow and steady wins the race as they say.

If you are doubting if what you are doing is right, then perhaps it isn't? Only you know your horse well enough. What I will say is that there are always other ways of doing things, and you need to do what you (and your horse)are comfortable with.

I can really recommend Twisted Truths of modern dressage by Philippe Karl. There is a section all about the in-hand work. (and any PK followers, if what i've said is a load of rubbish then please give the OP the correct information - i've yet to properly study his methods but i am certainly interested in them!)

Good luck OP
Trina x

 

[Dizzydancer]

thanks trina, that is the method i am working on with my instructor, both on the ground when i lunge him and when riding i ask for a nice frame then relaese. I may well get the book though as it may take further info.
To everyone who has been having a slight row i didnt find your info very helpful to be honest.
I lunged him today both in his flash and out of it just to see how he reacted, he wasnt working hard and in walk he is much improved but in trot and short bursts of canter we are doing he opens his mouth very wide without flash, and still attempts with the flash. I also looked at his tongue when he did it and he does put it very high up his mouth so i guess when he raced he would have been one who did have his tongue tied to prevent this.
He has also been tried in a french link snaffle but he wasnt comfortable in that at all with rearing/broncing until i got off and changed back.
As for working him too hard and thats why he is evading it, i do not work him too hard i only ask for short amounts of working through from behind into an outline and then he has a nice stretch. We do most of our sessions at walk, building up the amount of trot we do each time and now adding in canter. he has been in work properly for 10weeks now and only began canter this week.
He is in a NS Loose Ring Tranz angled salox gold, my only thoughts are it maybe too thick when looking at it today when he has his mouth closed it does seem like a lot of bit/tongue in his mouth. is there a similar bit that is thinner? I do not want to go bitless before i get that suggestion.