Following on from flashes and being on the bit

Evelyn said:
I too think you comment very rude an uneccesary - I have 45+yrs of experience, I train students and am also an examiner.
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When someone posts to get sensible advice and they are told they use using a torture device on their horse (let's keep a sense of perspective here folks!). Then I think that advice is rubbish - yes!

I think the advice is on a par with advising in strong terms things like: You should not feed many high street brands of supplement or feed as they cause terrible damage to a horses digestion, or you should not compete your horse unless you have a 5* vetting beforehand.

Those kinds of advice are rubbish.

I think you have always given advice Evelyn which seems sound and sensible. Apart from when you advise that if you encounter resistance or evasion when training you should ease off. You MAY ease off, you may evaluate why you are getting the resistance and you may decide it's because the horse is trying to avoid having to work hard. In which case easing off is the worst thing you can do and you should persist to ensure the evasion doesn't become a habit because it was successful.
 
dizzydancer said:
As for working him too hard and thats why he is evading it, i do not work him too hard i only ask for short amounts of working through from behind into an outline and then he has a nice stretch. We do most of our sessions at walk, building up the amount of trot we do each time and now adding in canter. he has been in work properly for 10weeks now and only began canter this week.
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No need to get stroppy, people were trying to help! No one said you were working him too hard. I said that horses evade because sometimes it is hard work to go correctly. I sometimes do yoga - that is hard work, it can really hurt especially if you are using muscles in a different way. I wasn't suggesting you are mistreating your horse or working him too hard, simply that he might be finding some of it quite hard work... ie, that maybe he finds it a bit difficult. My point is that when you are trying to teach something new or to change a way of going, it is bound to be hard work because the horse is doing something different. If you are doing it correctly then it will get easier with practise, then the next new thing you teach could be hard work. And again, different horses find different things difficult. My horse, eg, finds leg yield fairly easy, shoulder in quite difficult (so we are building up from "attempts" at shoulder fore to asking for more angle), yet seems to find renvers easier. Whilst he finds SI hard work, he has to do it, even baby steps, because doing it correctly will make it less hard for him.
 
sorry it wasnt meant to come across as stroppy. i am aware people are trying to help, and also that this new work is hard for him. I thought saying what we did would allow people to see i am not pushing him too much and therefore thats not the cause of the way he is going.
 
siennamum said:
I think you have always given advice Evelyn which seems sound and sensible. Apart from when you advise that if you encounter resistance or evasion when training you should ease off. You MAY ease off, you may evaluate why you are getting the resistance and you may decide it's because the horse is trying to avoid having to work hard. In which case easing off is the worst thing you can do and you should persist to ensure the evasion doesn't become a habit because it was successful.
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Maybe Evelyn meant that you shouldn't ask for too much, then you won't encounter resistance/evasion.
When training, surely you set up any animal to succeed. So, for example, if you think you can get 10 strides of collected work - you go for achieving 9 that you know you can definately get and praise for. What people tend to fall into the trap of is thinking they can get 10 strides, and pushing for 11 - as humans we believe it will get us results quicker - but in reality it sets us up for disappointment, resistance, evasion then punishment etc.

I hope i've explained that well?

Trina x
 
siennamum said:
When someone posts to get sensible advice and they are told they use using a torture device on their horse (let's keep a sense of perspective here folks!). Then I think that advice is rubbish - yes!

I think the advice is on a par with advising in strong terms things like: You should not feed many high street brands of supplement or feed as they cause terrible damage to a horses digestion, or you should not compete your horse unless you have a 5* vetting beforehand.

Those kinds of advice are rubbish.

I think you have always given advice Evelyn which seems sound and sensible. Apart from when you advise that if you encounter resistance or evasion when training you should ease off. You MAY ease off, you may evaluate why you are getting the resistance and you may decide it's because the horse is trying to avoid having to work hard. In which case easing off is the worst thing you can do and you should persist to ensure the evasion doesn't become a habit because it was successful.
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Bloomin eck! I agree with you again!

IMHO a good horseman is able to tell when resistance is because the horse lacks confidence or is genuinely confused or is being plain naughty. I would go back a step with the first instance and insist in the second.
 
trina1982 said:
Maybe Evelyn meant that you shouldn't ask for too much, then you won't encounter resistance/evasion.
When training, surely you set up any animal to succeed. So, for example, if you think you can get 10 strides of collected work - you go for achieving 9 that you know you can definately get and praise for. What people tend to fall into the trap of is thinking they can get 10 strides, and pushing for 11 - as humans we believe it will get us results quicker - but in reality it sets us up for disappointment, resistance, evasion then punishment etc.

I hope i've explained that well?

Trina x
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I do agree, and generally try to manage situations and my expectations so that we are successful and everything is lovely and harmonious. Nevertheless horses will try and evade at some point. Maybe it's me, but I find young horses will maintain self carriage for 3/4 of a circle and often find that last 1/4 hard. You could allow them to stretch or just not push, or you could continue to quietly insist. It's not punishing.
They might try going hollow or as mine does, open his mouth and collapse on the forehand. Mine is far too clever to be allowed to work properly for just 3/4 of the time, but let off when he evades.

Acording to the perfect world it seems there is no resistance, no evasion, young horses will never go on the forehand, or hollow. Is this realistic? I don't think so. I don't just think it's down to the rider or training regime either. I think it's because they learn and experiment, and sometimes feel lazy, and sometimes feel fresh.
 
My horse is very difficult to bit. I've tried lozenges, mullen mouths, French links, Revolvers, jointed snaffles, curved jointed snaffles, (un)Happy Mouths, etc, etc. I use a Myler MB04 comfort snaffle & he goes very kindly in it. It has minimal tongue pressure & is slightly ported, but not enough to come into contact with the roof of the mouth. It is quite thin & the "hooks" hold it in place so that it doesn't move much in the mouth. The signals it gives seem to be very clear. I've concluded that he doesn't like things that are too thick, stick in his tongue or bash the roof of his mouth. You can hire them for about £11/month.
There seems to be an idea that a thick bit is a kind bit - well that depends on your horse's mouth. If it looks too thick it probably is. Don't shoot me down in flames, this is just a one horse owner's experience & opinion. I've had horses for 40 years, but 1 at a time!
 
siennamum said:
I do agree, and generally try to manage situations and my expectations so that we are successful and everything is lovely and harmonious. Nevertheless horses will try and evade at some point. Maybe it's me, but I find young horses will maintain self carriage for 3/4 of a circle and often find that last 1/4 hard. You could allow them to stretch or just not push, or you could continue to quietly insist. It's not punishing.
They might try going hollow or as mine does, open his mouth and collapse on the forehand. Mine is far too clever to be allowed to work properly for just 3/4 of the time, but let off when he evades.

Acording to the perfect world it seems there is no resistance, no evasion, young horses will never go on the forehand, or hollow. Is this realistic? I don't think so. I don't just think it's down to the rider or training regime either. I think it's because they learn and experiment, and sometimes feel lazy, and sometimes feel fresh.
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So, as a question what does doing the last 1/4 of a circle with an open mouth and collapsed on the forehand achieve? (Genuine question, not trying to be sarcastic). To my mind it would be ingraining that behaviour through repetition? But what does it actually do, and what do you do to correct, how/what is the horse learning? And why is the horse struggling in the last 1/4?
From the example i used above, i would have said stopping on the circle prior to the 3/4 mark (or downward transition) to rebalance, regather thoughts and complete the last 1/4 in balance would be my idea of tackling that particular problem but i may be wrong?
Anyone have any experience of this because i hold my hands up - i don't. But i go on what methods make sense to me, and that does (may not do when i eventually start a youngster but thats why i'm learning all i can now :)).

As for the last paragraph, i think you are totally correct. Horses are obviously not machines and i think we are on the same thought process when you talk about quietly insisting - it's not punishment or bullying, but more like a 'i'm here if you'd like to join me in this nice collected place'. That said, as long as you only ask in short bursts, then there is less of an argument to be had in the first place (not overfacing them).

I love these sorts of threads, so much information and learning to be had :)..

Trina x
 
trina1982 said:
So, as a question what does doing the last 1/4 of a circle with an open mouth and collapsed on the forehand achieve? (Genuine question, not trying to be sarcastic). To my mind it would be ingraining that behaviour through repetition? But what does it actually do, and what do you do to correct, how/what is the horse learning? And why is the horse struggling in the last 1/4?
From the example i used above, i would have said stopping on the circle prior to the 3/4 mark (or downward transition) to rebalance, regather thoughts and complete the last 1/4 in balance would be my idea of tackling that particular problem but i may be wrong?
Anyone have any experience of this because i hold my hands up - i don't. But i go on what methods make sense to me, and that does (may not do when i eventually start a youngster but thats why i'm learning all i can now :)).

As for the last paragraph, i think you are totally correct. Horses are obviously not machines and i think we are on the same thought process when you talk about quietly insisting - it's not punishment or bullying, but more like a 'i'm here if you'd like to join me in this nice collected place'. That said, as long as you only ask in short bursts, then there is less of an argument to be had in the first place (not overfacing them).

I love these sorts of threads, so much information and learning to be had :)..

Trina x
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I'm hopping in on the middle of this just because I deal with similar things with my young OTTB mare.

For me, I really work on a ride-by-ride basis rather than having any set rule for how to proceed (and I suspect most of us do the same). In the above scenario, much would depend on my sense of the horse's frame of mind, mood, movement, etc.

There are times when she is testing me and attempting evasion because she doesn't feel like working hard - at those times, I will most definitely push through. She's not stupid - if I respond with the above at those times, she generally pulls it together and gives me what I want - after one or two instances of sloppy work. I then reward her by easing off and letting her relax.

Other times, she's getting frustrated and fussy and it's then I back off and work on something I know she gets fully because there's not way she's going to focus when she's in that place mentally. It's up to me to determine what course to take at those times and I may be mistaken, but I think that's probably what sienna is saying.

As for the OP, I've gone through any number of bits looking for the one that best suits my girl. While she has not been actively unhappy in any of them, she's never been fully relaxed either until my most recent, a sweet iron, single link snaffle with copper inlays. They all have their preferences, don't they?
 
Got caught up on the side discussion and forgot to post what I originally thought on reading the OP.

I can totally see the tongue thing as a stress reliever. My mare is incredibly oral and doing something with her mouth is a major tension easer for her. She has a lot of toys in her stall and she needs a bit she can enjoy (hence the copper and sweet iron). When we're riding and she is unsure or nervous, she has to turn her head and mouth the toe of my riding boot.

Your horse sounds like he's moving comfortably but you and your trainer are the ones best placed to decide that.
 
thanks for that baymareb my boy does that eating my boots thing! They now have a wierd dent in where he chews them!! Thanks for that they do all have there differences and he does seem to have a taste for this salox he has got, it is meant to be quite nice. A copper one may be another option, but yes i do feel he is moving well just stresed out still! he is also a big mouther for everything tassles toys etc.
 
siennamum said:
When someone posts to get sensible advice and they are told they use using a torture device on their horse (let's keep a sense of perspective here folks!). Then I think that advice is rubbish - yes!

I think the advice is on a par with advising in strong terms things like: You should not feed many high street brands of supplement or feed as they cause terrible damage to a horses digestion, or you should not compete your horse unless you have a 5* vetting beforehand.

Those kinds of advice are rubbish.
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:D I see what you did there, SM. For those that don't know what she's on about (because would be bullies need an audience :rolleyes:), she is taking some things I have said on old threads, and added her own twist in a childish attempt to upset me. :rolleyes: SM, this is only an internet forum. I would put you on ignore if you weren't so entertaining. Can't wait to see your next attempt. :D
 
trina1982 said:
Maybe Evelyn meant that you shouldn't ask for too much, then you won't encounter resistance/evasion.
When training, surely you set up any animal to succeed. So, for example, if you think you can get 10 strides of collected work - you go for achieving 9 that you know you can definately get and praise for. What people tend to fall into the trap of is thinking they can get 10 strides, and pushing for 11 - as humans we believe it will get us results quicker - but in reality it sets us up for disappointment, resistance, evasion then punishment etc.

I hope i've explained that well?

Trina x
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Yes - you have explained what I meant well. I avoid tension and resistance if I can - I probebly take more time to get to my destination than others do - I build on schooling slowly so that the horse is well established at the lower levels of work before introducing more. Was always taught to change the subject if I met with resistance as the resistance is learnt as easily as the correct work.

If a horse cannot maintain self carriage then go back a step and strengthen the horse more.
 
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