Following on from Lev's thread

[EventingMum]

We have two terriers age 8 and 2 who get on well together. Son and DiL live beside us and have one who is 6. We have always had the dogs together, originally we had another older dog when son's dog was a puppy and all got on. The current three dogs were fine together until recently with son's dog spending much of the day with ours and when either of us went away the dogs would stay with however was home in either house. Last summer things started to go wrong and our older dog and son's started fighting - full-on, drawing blood and very hard to separate, both Mr EM and I sustained bites in the process of separating them and our dog had to have his ear operated on as a result.

This has probably happened three times in total, we've kept them separate after the first time but once we accidentally bumped into each other and once son's dog jumped into our garden and attacked our dog. Neither dog is aggressive with other dogs and our 2 year old dog gets on well with both individually. All three were neutered as puppies.

I understand that the son's dog probably wants to be top dog and our dog isn't happy with this and is trying to retain his position. My gut feeling and that of my vet is that they will never get along and we will have to permanently keep them separate however our son happened to be talking to a canine behaviorist in the course of his work and she reckoned something could be done. My question is how likely is this to be successful? I would never feel happy leaving them unsupervised again and don't want to spend a fortune if it's unlikely to work or risks either dog being injured or the young dog's relationship with both of the others. In a lifetime of having multiple dogs within my family this is my first experience of this sort of behavior.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Personally, I don't think there is much you can do with dogs aged 8 and 6, after three fights where one or the other or both of them has felt as if they have achieved something. What happens before and after conflict is very important, but usually ends up with one or the other dog thinking that he has 'won' and gives him no incentive not to do it again.
I personally would never leave these dogs unsupervised and always be on watch/don't give them the benefit of the doubt. I have two large, mature, entire, males, who do not mix, my older dog was 7 and had lived on his own from the age of about 2, when the 5 year old came to live with us, it would be unreasonable to expect them to mix well and be bosom buddies.
It's not ideal and is time consuming, but I have the facilities to cope and I'm not prepared to be stuck in the middle of them and be landed with hideous vet bills and one or the other or all of us getting badly hurt, if they decide to go at it.

 

[EventingMum]

Thank you, my gut feeling is also that this is not a reversible situation. When they fought it didn't appear if either dog was gaining the upper hand and they were separated as soon as we could do so but who knows how they perceived the situation? I would certainly never feel happy leaving them together which is a great pity as they used to get on so well. I also don't want to put them at risk while someone tries to remedy the situation or have the younger dog getting involved.

In happier times:

 

[{97702}]

It’s interesting because I had two bitches who had a number of fights over the years - full on, drawing blood, requiring veterinary treatment. The rest of the time they got on absolutely fine together, lived together with no problems and quite honestly were great friends! One was Amy (the lurcher mentioned in my other thread) and one was Flick my little white greyhound - they were similar ages and I adopted them a few months apart, fights took place over a number of years between approx 5 and 9 years old

My two greyhound boys also had a fight a few months ago - again a very serious one, lots of blood/wounds/vet visit - they get on fine now! They are 4 and 5 years old.

So I don’t think you can ever generalise and say ‘never’, it really depends on the breed.

Having said that, George terrier is a mardy little sod who is very aggressive and I can’t see him ever tolerating another terrier in the house! If he started fighting with one of the others (which luckily won’t happen due to the size difference, the hounds laugh at him) then I’d always aim to keep him apart ?

 

[Cinnamontoast]

Is it since the 3rd dog arrived?

 

[EventingMum]

Is it since the 3rd dog arrived?

It is but the puppy was here about a year before the fights started and prior to him arriving we had another neutered male who was pts so there have always been three dogs here, in fact at one point there were four when my father's dog was also here.

 

[[139672]]

There was an episode about this on Dogs Behaving Badly. A bulldog I think and a Westie. If you could find that episode on a catch-up somewhere it may help? I cannot remember now what he did to help.

 

[skinnydipper]

I have no experience of this with either dogs or bitches so no advice to offer from that perspective.

I was wondering though if you had been able to identify a trigger on any of these occasions?

If one of them feels insecure he could be resource guarding and that can include space, people, etc.

Just a thought.

 

[EventingMum]

I have no experience of this with either dogs or bitches so no advice to offer from that perspective.

I was wondering though if you had been able to identify a trigger on any of these occasions?

If one of them feels insecure he could be resource guarding and that can include space, people, etc.

Just a thought.

Sadly the first incident came out of the blue and we were unaware of any trigger, the other times it just happens as soon as they see each other, there's literally a split second of an aggressive stance and then they're at each other in a full-scale fight.

 

[skinnydipper]

Sadly the first incident came out of the blue and we were unaware of any trigger, the other times it just happens as soon as they see each other, there's literally a split second of an aggressive stance and then they're at each other in a full-scale fight.

I am sure you are doing the right thing by keeping them separate.

Being constantly vigilant and managing the situation won't be easy, we are human and mistakes can happen.

Dogs usually have something driving their behaviour, the hard part can be working out what it is

I hope you can find a way to return to peace and harmony.

Please keep us informed of the behaviourist's input and results.

 

[EventingMum]

I am sure you are doing the right thing by keeping them separate.

Being constantly vigilant and managing the situation won't be easy, we are human and mistakes can happen.

Dogs usually have something driving their behaviour, the hard part can be working out what it is

I hope you can find a way to return to peace and harmony.

Please keep us informed of the behaviourist's input and results.

I will, if we go down that route. I'm fairly undecided as I don't think we'd ever trust them together and am worried we risk another fight in trying to achieve something that may be impossible. Fortunately, although convenient to have them together it is possible to have them in their respective homes and to let them out at separate times.

 

[Ranyhyn]

I'm the proud owner of two terriers.

They have through the (12)years fought badly on a few occassions, as they are now older I am getting less and less confident leaving them together so I have two crates so they can be separated if required and I never leave them with access to my GSD lest they pick fights they're not so evenly matched on.

 

[skinnydipper]

I will, if we go down that route. I'm fairly undecided as I don't think we'd ever trust them together and am worried we risk another fight in trying to achieve something that may be impossible. Fortunately, although convenient to have them together it is possible to have them in their respective homes and to let them out at separate times.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

I try to think along the lines of what does the dog gain from a behaviour and I am not sure that the fighting has anything to do with wanting to be top of the totem pole.

Top dogs are born not made, if you know what I mean.

This is probably not helpful to you but in my life with dogs, I've only ever had one "top dog" - at the time I had 5 bitches and 3 dogs. He had a quiet authority that the other dogs respected and never challenged. There was never any aggression. He had nothing to prove. He joined me when I had other dogs and more dogs followed and all deferred to him throughout his life. Before he came and after he died no-one else was interested in the position.

 

[Stiff Knees]

We've never owned a top dog, all 3 got on beautifully when Spot was still with us, and when she passed last year the other two just slipped into a perfectly harmonious twosome. Jake at 12, Peril at 2. I have no idea who was, or is now, dominant, they just seem to "get on". Spot was definitely the Matriarch but in a very gentle, guiding way, she came to us when Jake was 4 and she was 7 and there was never a cross word. We've looked after friends dogs and again, never a cross word. All sleeping in a big untidy huddle in the sofa I realise we've been incredibly lucky!! I think the reason for this is that Jake does not realise, and would be devastated to learn, that he is, in fact, a dog not a human (Shh don't tell him). ??

 

[skinnydipper]

We've never owned a top dog, all 3 got on beautifully when Spot was still with us, and when she passed last year the other two just slipped into a perfectly harmonious twosome. Jake at 12, Peril at 2. I have no idea who was, or is now, dominant, they just seem to "get on". Spot was definitely the Matriarch but in a very gentle, guiding way, she came to us when Jake was 4 and she was 7 and there was never a cross word. We've looked after friends dogs and again, never a cross word. All sleeping in a big untidy huddle in the sofa I realise we've been incredibly lucky!! I think the reason for this is that Jake does not realise, and would be devastated to learn, that he is, in fact, a dog not a human (Shh don't tell him). ??

SK, you explained it so much better than I ever could.

None of mine have been "dominant" (I dislike that word) and I have never felt the need to dominate, as is often suggested we should.

Like you I have been lucky and this too has always been a happy, harmonious home.

Top dog wasn't a bully, there was just something about him that the others recognised.

I feel sorry for those that have a problem and hope that peace and calm may once more be restored.

 

[{97702}]

I find the idea of not having a top dog really odd ? I’ve always lived in a houseful of dogs and there has always been a matriarch bitch who has been ‘top dog’ - in the same way that a wolf pack operates? There will also be a male ‘top dog’ and a hierarchy exists like it would do with a herd of horses.

At the moment I have 2 bitches and 3 dogs who don’t really like or dislike each other but generally co-exist quite happily, but there is a clear hierarchy despite that

 

[skinnydipper]

I don't want to destroy OP's thread so I have deleted this post and will start a new thread.

 

[EventingMum]

In response to the latest posts we were never really aware of one being top dog prior to the fighting starting, they all just seemed to get on and often all lay together as seen in the photo I posted. I suppose the problem could be that my son's dog didn't live here full time although he usually spent at least part of each day here and often stayed overnight, he did live here full time for the first year of his life. So perhaps there is a territorial element to it all?

 

[Stiff Knees]

Perhaps my dogs relationship with one another is odd Lev, but I genuinely believe that they like one another. They don't just tolerate one another or co-exist. There has never been a pack mentality and seeing the trouble this can cause I'm glad this is the case, as the saying goes, If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

[{97702}]

But that’s the thing SK, hardly any of the issues I’ve ever experienced have been due to this hierarchy? It has been there and existed, but it has never caused problems or disharmony - it’s just there ?

in 50 years of living with dogs I’ve had two cases of younger bitches challenging older ones in the ‘pack’ - I hardly think that’s excessive if you consider how many dogs I’ve lived with in that time (we used to have 15 or so as an average when I lived at home)

Amy’s fights with Flick, and Ace’s fight with Marty, were absolutely nothing to do with hierarchy at all

 

[Stiff Knees]

Sorry Lev, I misunderstood.

 

[Moobli]

I would say my small pack of dogs over the years have had a hierarchy but it has been fluid and not one dog was "in charge" in all situations. Certain situations seemed to shift the balance of power.