Following on from my relaxing the jaw post last week.

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Sarah1

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For those of you that read my post and/or answered I have another conundrum for you!
Following our awful schooling session last Thursday my YM rode Bailey on Saturday morning - he said he wasn't hanging on the rein nearly as much as when he 1st got on (about 3 weeks ago) but Bailey did appear to be more argumentative than usual - ie not as willing to move off leg and generally looking a bit grumpy at times! He also confirmed what I thought - that my hands are too soft and I'm not properly connected with the horse - he made me shorten the reins and close my fingers more.
Bailey did soften in my hands but if I wasn't constantly on his case he was backing off my leg.
I've only hacked since his schooling session last Saturday and he's been ok but a bit fidgety in the mouth with my new rein contact! Last night, however, he was absolutely terrible!
We only hacked but he was shaking his head up & down and when I did squeeze and ask him to soften he'd feel brilliant for about 30 seconds then he'd back off the leg or chuck his head back up in the air!
He also 'blocks' me with his neck - he doesn't feel supple just like a lump of concrete and no matter how much I try to flex he's just not having any of it.
So today I feel terrible because I feel like I was pulling him in the mouth and making him uncomfortable and like I've held the reins too hard - I probably haven't I'm just used to being much much softer but that prob wasn't right either!
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I tried the things that were suggested as much as I could out hacking rather than schooling but as you can tell we're not having much luck with any of them!
All this is very basic so it's really frustrating that I can't just get him to work correctly - I'm not new to riding but before getting Bailey (2 years ago) I'd been away from the saddle for a few years!
As I said before his back, teeth & tack are checked regularly and my YM (much more experienced than I) doesn't have these problems so I don't think he's in pain.
Someone has suggested I try a neck strap and try fixing one rein and using that as the outside rein and then playing with the 'inside' to see if that will help him soften & settle.
What do you guys think? Do you think I am the root of the problem?
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umm, i think he sounds tricky, tbh. you should only ever use one hand at a time to send signals, with a snaffle... the other should be still. this stops you fiddling. i've just watched a Pippa Funnell dvd where she recommends using a long neckstrap and holding it with both hands (as well as holding the reins!) as you ride, to help keep your hands still. might be worth a try, using an old stirrup leather as a neckstrap.
it sounds as if you need a lot more gentle trial and error. i would go by feel, tbh.. if the rein feels way too strong to you, it prob does to the horse too. sometimes you have to be a little firmer for a while, and it's hard to know without seeing, whether this horse is taking advantage of you wanting a gentler contact, but imho a lighter, gentler contact is always the way to go. a lot of horses resent a very firm contact.
your YM possibly uses a lot more seat and leg than you do... this can make a huge difference. just something else to think about, to stop you getting fixated on the front end!
 
This probably won't help, but my horse has a tendancy to really hang onto the left rein. I find the best way to stop him doing it is to keep my left rein really soft until he relaxs into it - then he will take the contact but I have to keep it quite soft so he doesn't take hold. If I hang on or pull at his mouth it just makes him worse. If I were you I would concentrate on getting him working off your leg and not worry too much about where his head is for the moment. Just get him going forwards and practise keeping your hands in the right place with a supporting contact (as opposed to pulling his mouth).

ETS. I wasn't insiunating you pulled on his mouth btw - just trying to explain myself! It looked bad once I'd posted it!
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Thanks - I think I do have a tendancy to fixate on the front end even though I know I shouldn't play - it should all come from the leg so he's going forward to the contact rather than brining him in. I think I do this as I know I'm too soft with my hands and I'm trying to over-compensate! I do only squeeze each rein in turn - never both at once.
You're right my YM does use more seat & leg than I do! I do try to push him forward and he will move off the leg but then he shoves his head out and it goes out the front door! I think that's why YM made me take firmer contact so that I can keep him between hand & leg.
I tried pushing him on last night in walk and all he'd do was trot then tow me forward and take hold with his jaw - I think he was being a bit bloody minded TBH, he can get a bit unwilling at this time of year - he seems to change when the light does!!!!!!!!!
I def. need to start riding with a schooling whip at all times even when hacking so that I can back my leg up with it if he gets ignorant (which he does have a tendancy to do - he'll not kick off klike other horses, rearing & bucking, he just pretends that you're not asking!).
How should I ride him more forward with my seat? I try to make sure my hips are open & go with his movement but I'm obviously not doing something right!
 
I know what you mean! I've been firmer with my hands because YM told me I'm not properly connected with him but I don't think it's suiting either of us!
He is willing (most of the time) to go forward and I think that's why I'm obsessing about his head cos I know it's all going out of the front door!
I'll just try to get the happy medium with my hands and like you say not worry about his head - I just don't like the awful picture it creates.
Also he does know how to work correctly he just is finding it difficult and so won't co-operate.
I think I let him get away with more than YM does cos he knows how to be thinking ahead etc. and I'm v novice in comparison and as a result he tries to take the p**s with me!
I think the realisation is dawning on me that these problems stem from me! I'll have to stop thinking about what he's doing as much and just worrying about what I'm doing!
 
Hiya. I didn't see last post so may not be quite on target here, but do be careful you're not over-doing your new firm contact - you shouldn't feel you have a pull the whole time - you'll just switch him off & he'll find a new way to resist you. Always work on making the leg stronger than the hand as a general rule, but then if he gets 'gobby', sharply correct him (upward tug of one rein generally works), but then go back to you normal contact - much more effective (& kinder) that constant over-firmness. He should be flexing for you, you may need to try spurs if you're confident/comfortable with them, to get after him a bit if he's blocking you - you've got to find a way to unblock his neck.

Problem with the approach of remaining firm the whole time, where do you go from there if the horse isn't responding? You should have a consistent contact with the mouth, but correct the horse when required & then go back to 'normal' contact - the horse should be happy to work with you & you should assume obliging until he's not, if you know what I mean. He should be 'seeking' the contact (test is to gradually slip the reins & see if he follows) but not relying on it.

I'd be careful about doing too much out hacking as you may be really over-doing it & now he's had enough. Personally, I'd do a couple of 5 min sessions out hacking & leave it at that. Of course if he doesn't respond out hacking, you should continue until he does, then leave it.
 
i think you need to relax a lot more about it, tbh. umm, concentrate on riding him forward in a good rhythm into a soft constant contact in both hands. if you do that, consistently, on both reins, through transitions and changes of direction, the horse should come into an outline without you needing to fiddle. don't think of pushing with your seat, think of allowing the horse to move you. it's very hard to put into words...you need a trainer patient enough to teach you feel, really, which is possible, i promise!
 
Hi! I think you've hit the nail on the head - in hindsight I think he got 'gobby' because I was being too firm (one extreme to other I think!). I'll try tonight keeping the contact light (although not as light as I was before) and elastic and keeping my legs on.
On Lucinda Greens clinic last night she said your legs should be like cling film tubes and I think that paints a good picture so I'll aim for that!
I do need to find a way of unblocking his neck but I'm struggling to find out what that is - any suggestions would be great!
He doesn't really seek the contact - if I let the reins slip they just going washing-line-like! Does that mean I'm not using my legs enough?!
YM says he may find it difficult to stretch as he is v v compact (picture for you to see what I mean) so could that be another reason why he isn't seeking the contact?
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Thanks for the advice - it makes a lot of sense!
 
I need to learn feel NOW!!!!!!!
I know what you're saying - I'll try to relax my ass and just let him push me out of the saddle in trot etc.
What you've said has helped and you're right I do need to stop letting it stress me and relax!
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In my lay-mans terms I described Bailey feeling like he was working properly to my non-horsey OH as when he's working over his back and I can feel it come up like he needs toilet I feel like I'm sliding more towards pommel - does that sound about right?!
The schooling sessions that Bailey is having with YM are going to progress to lessons for the both of us - perhaps that needs to happen sooner rather than later?!
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Thank you everyone! Keep the advice coming - I need all the help I can get!
I do feel a lot more positive after going through it with you all - I just hope Bailey doesn't hold my incompetance and frustration against me...!
 
umm... right. well, it took me months and months with an incredibly patient top trainer to get FEEL, and years of training before that with british trainers hadn't done it, because no-one had the patience, unfortunately.
when they start working properly through their back, i think it feels as if you're sitting on a mushroom... rounded but softly squidgy, hope that makes sense. yes, a little bit as if the horse is doing droppings, but softer.
concentrate on yourself, honestly. are you absolutely straight, upright, in balance, even in both legs. think of your legs as being cooked spaghetti, stuck loosely to the sides of the horse, but not nagging with every stride, just softly embracing his ribs.
concentrate on getting an absolutely even feel in both hands, as i said before, through transitions, changes of bend and direction, etc.
don't have too strong a contact, it is like riding with the handbrake on all the time and a lot of horses HATE it, not surprisingly.
just because your YM is a good rider, doesn't mean s/he is a good trainer, or a good trainer for YOU, unfortunately. some people need showing, some need verbal explanations (i'm one of those, can you tell?!), some need cajoling and reassurance, some need bullying and yelling at to get them to make the effort. it really is a case of finding someone who knows what they're doing, likes your horse (essential, that), and teaches the way you need.
i don't think your horse being compact has anything to do with his ability to stretch. it does make it easier for them to block at the poll, jaw and neck, though, i think.
if you can get him going nicely from legs to hands, not worrying about outline, just concentrating on how it feels, then he will want to stretch, honestly.
 
You're right! I do need to cencentrate more on me and just ride and stop analysing things.
I do sit very square in the saddle but believe my balance could be improved and I'm much stronger in right hand than left so I'm sure this will have an impact.
I'll just concentrate on getting him going forward and hopefully everything else will drop into place!
 
really concentrate on being as ambidextrous as possible... even to sweeping, hoovering, and everything else using both hands, one side then the other. i know what it's like being totally confused by all the advice and feeling as if you're not getting anywhere... very frustrating.
 
Do you do any carrot stretches with him to help loosen his neck muscles?

It's took my mare over 18 months of schooling to get to a point where she'll now go in a mostly correct outline and accept the bridle, and we've gone through almost every evasion going.

Is there another well schooled horse you can ride (or have a lesson on a mechanical horse - fantastic!) so that you can get a feel of how little or much contact should be used?
 
Really interesting, thank you!
I really hope I'm not causing him pain or discomfort! I feel terrible now that I've hurt him then blamed him for it all - what a bad Mum!
Think we'll go for a nice gentle hack tonight instead of the schooling session I had planned and he'll have a bit of pampering!
Bless him, he's such a sweet horse, I just want to do what's right for him!
 
The advice makes perfect sense - it's putting it into practice I struggle with!!!!!!!!
That's a good idea re the hoovering, sweeping etc. and doing it with my left hand - I think my hubby will be impressed with more cleaning/housey stuff too!!!!!!!
 
I don't do carrot stretches but if it'll help we'll certainly start doing them - I think Bailey will be quite enthusiastic about extra carrots too!!!!!!
There isn't really a well schooled horse I can ride at the yard - perhaps my hubby would like to buy me some lessons on 1 at a centre though!? I'll ask him!!!!!!
Thanks
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Have been having this very same problem myself and Henry1997 had a good point to make - I was focusing on the outline itself being the object of the session. Try making good transitions and balanced turns your aim. I think Kerilli has already said this really but a correct outline is a byproduct of the horse properly carrying itself. Therefore if you stop worrying about the shape and concentrate on getting him to listen by constantly changing pace and direction he'll probably come down of his own accord. This doesn't mean stop asking for him to flex but do it while you are achieving your real aims. Am going to try this myself so find out first hand whether this actually works!
 
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