following on from my rescue dog lunging at someone thread

B

blood_magik

Well-Known Member
Joined
26 January 2011
Messages
6,343
Location
Scotland
Visit site
We went back to dog's trust and started some clicker training with him, with the idea that when the doorbell goes, he goes to a certain spot.

Today, he lunged at another person in the house. Same as last time; no obvious warning signs - he lunged at the person and grabbed onto his jacket.
I had a different person in the house last night and he was fine with him.
I now need to decide if this is something that can be dealt with or if it's a deal breaker and he has to go back.

I've phoned dogs trust again and am waiting on the trainer getting back to me again.
Personally, I think that there should only be one chance with something like this. He had his chance when he went for the painter 10 days ago.

Am I being too hard on him or would you be thinking about sending him back?
 
Poor you, is PTS an option or is it up to the rescue? I haven't read your previous thread so don't know the back story but if he's a rescue and has been through a lot it might be unfair to send him back where he'll have trouble finding another home and it could be stressful for him. Just a thought.

ETA you're not being hard on yourself at all.
 
I wouldn't be allowing him free range and access to people and be giving him the benefit of the doubt so soon after the original incident. It could take weeks and months to fix and he might never be fully happy or social around people. This may be something you manage as oppose to cure, it's up to yoy whether you're prepared to do that. Personally I wouldn't have a problem managing a dog that isn't in love with the whole wide world, but I have the lifestyle and the facilities.

Dogs don't understand the concept of 'being given a chance'. People keep coming into his space, he gives them a warning, either they go away or he gets put in a place of safety. Maybe the person he did not react to smelled, acted differently. Who knows.
Not knocking you but I think you set him up to fail by trusting it was dealt with after a couple of clicker sessions. It's going to take time and gradual exposure.
 
Last edited:
I think what CC said is right.

It'll take time to resolve. I'd consider crating when other people are there until he reaches a point where the clicker training is well and truly embedded and he knows what's going on. If you aren't able to do this, perhaps he will need to go back; someone else may well be able to offer this.

Don't be too hard on yourself as if you haven't dealt with this before it will be a new experience for you and for him. It might be that you're not right for each other, but equally you might be more than capable of managing him for the time it will take. Good luck either way - I'm sure you'll get support from the rescue as well.
 
I'm with the others, I am fairly intolerant of bad behaviour but my dog cannot be trusted at all around children. As soon as anyone turns up with a child she gets shut away, there is no debate about it. Is that not possible? If he is OK on walks and so on and out and about it might just be a home issue.
At the end of the day it is up to you though.
 
I'm waiting for them to call me so I can talk things through.
He usually goes in the living room or kitchen but won't settle - he barks constantly and scratches at the door.

He will try to go for some dogs out on walks and I have to try to hold him back - I have scratch marks up my legs from where he's trie to get away. he doesn't get off the lead.

I don't want a dog that can't be trusted around guests. That's a deal-breaker for me.
PTS isn't an option - if I can't keep him, he has to go back to Dog's trust.
 
CaveCanem said:
I wouldn't be allowing him free range and access to people and be giving him the benefit of the doubt so soon after the original incident. It could take weeks and months to fix and he might never be fully happy or social around people. This may be something you manage as oppose to cure, it's up to yoy whether you're prepared to do that. Personally I wouldn't have a problem managing a dog that isn't in love with the whole wide world, but I have the lifestyle and the facilities.

Dogs don't understand the concept of 'being given a chance'. People keep coming into his space, he gives them a warning, either they go away or he gets put in a place of safety. Maybe the person he did not react to smelled, acted differently. Who knows.
Not knocking you but I think you set him up to fail by trusting it was dealt with after a couple of clicker sessions. It's going to take time and gradual exposure.
Click to expand...

Agree with CC. By letting him have access to people so readily you are setting him up to fail.

Its something that you have to be truly dedicated to helping him with and it will take time but you have to be committed and if thats not something that you feel that you can do then i would take him back to the rescue centre and tell them the reasons why.

Good luck. x
 
blood_magik said:
I'm waiting for them to call me so I can talk things through.
He usually goes in the living room or kitchen but won't settle - he barks constantly and scratches at the door.

I don't want a dog that can't be trusted around guests. That's a deal-breaker for me.
PTS isn't an option - if I can't keep him, he has to go back to Dog's trust.
Click to expand...

There is your answer then, because I don't think I could ever trust him around people, or not for a very long time. Is he crate trained? Possibly he feels by shutting him away, and possibly you are worried when you do it, he is unable to help his pack. If he could be in a crate in the same room he might not worry so. Can he be left alone normally?
 
Ps my own dog is on lockdown at the moment, under very strict control and I was advised that it could take about six months and to be very consistent. It is a pain, but he's worth it. PM me if you need any help or moral support if you decide to stick with your boy.

Crate training might really help him and make him more secure, even with people in the room.
 
me, my parents, dog and carpet man in the living room with doors to hall open.
dog had met carpet man before parents arrived.
dog is standing next to my dad and to the right of carpet man, who was standing in the doorway. there was a gap of about a metre between him and the dog.
carpet man takes a step back into the hall and the dog lunges at him. He got the hem of the guy's jacket.
 
Personally, I think you are asking a lot of this dog in a short space of time. Rescue dogs can have issues and need owners with the patience and time to help resolve them - you should have been aware of this when you made the decision. The dog sound insecure/uncertain as any dog would be in a new environment.

You need to make allowances and provisions to help him - if you aren't willing to give him the time and put in the training then hand him back to allow him to find a new home that will!

If you want hassle free company get yourself a Guinea pig!
 
Jingleballs said:
Personally, I think you are asking a lot of this dog in a short space of time. Rescue dogs can have issues and need owners with the patience and time to help resolve them - you should have been aware of this when you made the decision. The dog sound insecure/uncertain as any dog would be in a new environment.

You need to make allowances and provisions to help him - if you aren't willing to give him the time and put in the training then hand him back to allow him to find a new home that will!

If you want hassle free company get yourself a Guinea pig!
Click to expand...

Gosh, judgemental much?! Is it really so unreasonable to expect a dog not to try to tear a strip off a guest??

OP I have no pearls of wisdom, but just wanted to say that you shouldn't feel bad if this dog and his issues don't fit into your life. You weren't responsible for 'breaking' him, and needn't responsible for fixing him if you're not set up for it.
 
Jingleballs said:
Personally, I think you are asking a lot of this dog in a short space of time. Rescue dogs can have issues and need owners with the patience and time to help resolve them - you should have been aware of this when you made the decision. The dog sound insecure/uncertain as any dog would be in a new environment.

You need to make allowances and provisions to help him - if you aren't willing to give him the time and put in the training then hand him back to allow him to find a new home that will!

If you want hassle free company get yourself a Guinea pig!
Click to expand...


this attitude is one of the reasons that people do not want to rehome a dog....who wants to be stuck with a dog they are not happy with or feel safe to be left with strangers and then be judged as a poor or bad owner for admitting they are having trouble.there are plenty of dogs in rescue who do not have serious issues and attack guests without warning. thousands of dogs are pts yearly without these sort of issue's.

I would send this boy back to the dogs trust who will not pts and hopefully will be more honest in assesssing his issues for his next home and try again for a dog that doesn't need a extra training and professional work.Yes dog ownership os hard and involves a lot of work but having a dog that lunges at visitors other dogs and is not crate trained is not a ball in the park for most owners.

if rescues are known for coming with this range of issues why would any novice owner want one....perhaps I am overly harsh in my thinking but I do think that with all the dogs being pts the criteria and acceptance of issues in dogs for adoption is a bit unrealistic.
 
OP, I really am not getting at you but I would like you to see it from the dogs point of view.

I do apologise if I am repeating myself but doorways and entrance points are often flashpoints for dogs, as mentioned on some other threads.

Also, again, not getting at you but if you knew he was iffy with a tradesman in the house, why would you bring him into close contact with another one so soon.

He was not 'in his bed' as per the clicker training you mention above, he was mingling with you, your Mum, and dad, who he now sees as 'his people', near a doorway, and a stranger comes in (meeting a person once does not a best buddy make, it's not as simple as that for some dogs) and the situation sounds like he was a bit hemmed in by people.
Did he make eye contact with the dog? How was his body language? Tiny, seemingly meaningless things can mean a lot to a dog.

Again, I am repeating myself, but there are some dogs who are not going to be happy with random tradesmen coming in and out of the house - my dog would not be, nor would I expect him to be completely neutral to random men coming into his territory.

Is there any collie in him? No offence to collie/sheepdog owners but insecurity/fear-driven 'sneaky' biting of someone who is already retreating or who has their backs turned can happen with collies. These are not bites intented to do serious harm and happen especially near doorways and when the dog feels hemmed in or cornered.

He is has bitten the hems of two people's garments. They were both visiting tradesmen. Both in or near the living room, which you said yourself was somewhere he sees as a 'safe place'. Both times, the dog was loose. Thinking logically about it, what would you do, next time?
 
What is the relationship like between you and this dog and your parents and this dog? Do you trust him in the respect of knowing he would not go for you? From what you have said this dog is nervous and is also over-protective of his 'pack' and maybe certain people trigger this behaviour. However, that type of behaviour is not acceptable and the question is do you feel capable of dealing with it? There is no harm in saying you're not. As I have said before, this dog looks a lot like mine so I would suspect similar breeds in there and he seems to exhibit similar traits. Although mine dies not lunge at people, she is nervous and will warn them by being very noisy. Children she has always been fine with but grown men she fears more than women. Dogs get 'shouted' at a lot and she can appear very nasty. She is nearly 3, I got her aged 9 mths and she had all these behaviours instilled. Yours is 7 so he is likely to be a bit more hard work. The first thing I did with mine is take her to training classes which was a great help as improved her confidence and social skills and gave me more confidence to deal with her.

Now she is tonnes better but still has quirks. She is not dog aggressive but can appear so on lead. Off lead she is fine - as are so many dogs who exhibit 'aggressive' behaviour on lead.

As said, the decision whether to keep him is up to you and don't let people make you feel bad if you feel he's not for you. Being with you a short time and with all these strangers in his house may just be too much for him to deal with. Don't be hard on yourself, having a dog is supposed to be an enjoyable experience. Although I think this is 'fixable', maybe you're not the one to fix it.
 
Jingleballs said:
If you want hassle free company get yourself a Guinea pig!
Click to expand...
Harsh and sarcastic comments like this are not helpful.

There is, however, a lot of good advice on this thread from more tactful, knowledgeable people.

OP, most 'ordinary' dog lovers would be sending a rescue back if it nipped two people, so don't feel that you have failed him, if you do end up returning him. All credit instead for trying to help him in the first place.
 
Sorry, been out walking the dog. will try to answer everyone's questions.

Paperwork from rescue only says mixed breed but vet thinks possibly collie x or Doberman x.
Man's back was turned when dog went at him.

I do not think he would go for me or my parents although he responds to my dad better than he does to me. He has never growled at me or acted aggressively.
I've found that he sometimes doesn't listen to me - ie, I've told him to go to his bed or get down and he hasn't done as he's been told. could be he doesn't respect me yet or just isn't bothered.

We've only been clicker training since Saturday as that was when the trainer from dogs trust could fit us in.
In the past when I've taken him to the door with me, he's been desperate to see whoever is outside and I've struggled to hold onto him.

Rescue hasn't called me back so I'll be phoning them again first thing tomorrow.
If that had been a child he would probably have knocked them over and hurt them.

Maybe I should give him back? It's not very fair for him, the poor boy but maybe it would be for the best?
 
It sounds he only does it under specific circumstances then from what you say and, if you now know what triggers him then I think you can work with him.

The whole listening thing though - that's the old 'selective hearing'! I believe a lot of dogs have this down to a tee. Sounds like you maybe need to be a bit more authoritative with him at this time so he does see you as his 'leader' as it were. When you tell him to do something he needs to understand he is expected to do it!

Have another chat with the rescue, see what they think. I guess it all depends on whether you're attached to him and want to work with him or not. No ti's not great to give the dog back as, in an ideal world all these things would work out perfectly but in the real world that isn't always the case. Dogs have been handed back to rescues for much less!
 
Ok, if I were you, I would restrict his movement, crate train him so you can put him there for downtime, when someone comes to the door or when you have visitors. You can still enjoy him and to be honest I don't like getting mugged by dogs when I go to other people's houses anyway!!

I personally don't think this is an insurmountable problem, you just have to tweak your mindset and your management and be consistent and not put him in a position where he feels vulnerable or defensive. He could still make a cracking dog.

He is probably 'not listening' to you because he does not understand what you are asking of him. It can take thousands of repetitions for a dog to properly understand a command and if you're not consistent it will take even longer.

Some dogs need very black and white instructions - for some dogs, being allowed on the sofa *sometimes* and not at other times is just too much confusion, then we shout at them for not knowing when is right and wrong - better to let the dog have his own bed and remove all that confusion.
If you tell a dog to 'get down' off the sofa - and the dog is already 'lying down' - then he is doing nothing wrong! Use the command 'off' for 'get off' and 'down' for 'lie on the floor'. They don't understand the nuances of the English language.
Similarly, lots of 'bed' and feed him or praise him there when he gets there so he knows it's a positive association. In your heart of hearts, do you think does he really know or understand and link every command you are giving him? Or could you spend a bit more time each day just reinforcing it and bonding with him.

However - if you don't like him, take him back.
 
OP, I would honestly try to crate train him before you send him back, then there is no more 'accidents' he will always have his safe haven too.

My 2 staffs have their crate, they love it, if they feel threatened by anything they retreat to their crate, they have never been aggressive, but are very bouncy so if I have young or elderly coming into the house I ask them to go to their bed and they both walk over to their crate and lay down.

Never used a crate before, but it is worth its weight in gold, wouldn't be without one.

Decision is of course yours, Best of luck
 
Dog has moved from kennels to a house with a lot of people coming and going, that has to be quite a big change for him and I think it would be quite quick to expect him to know all boundaries/what you expect of him when you tell him to get down/go to bed etc, I'd think that takes plenty of time and consistency.

I can't understand at all why when he has already lunged for one tradesman why he was loose in the same room as another one rather than being in another room/crated/house line, that just seems completely illogical and rather risky to me- when you have only been clicker training for 2 days so obviously that isn't going to work just yet. He is just repeating behaviour he has used before surely? and you quite poss don't know him well enough to spot the signs that he is not happy.

If you don't think he is right for you then take him back, but I think it a little unfair to brand him a bad dog.
 
i've had my dog since 1st october, (2yo rehomed from preloved!) and although he doesn't have the same issue with people, instead he sometimes growls at other dogs and has got in one fight- although more of a confused wrestle as he did not cause any damage (he is a gsd x, other was a collie). it is because he is under socialised and he is insecure. with dogs he knows he is relaxed and has no problem.
it seems to me (and i am of course by no means an expert at all!) that he is anxious. it is very early days. i sometimes forget with Harvey how little time he has been here. but within a week of having him, despite the issue we are still working on, i was in love! it sounds like you are getting too stressed and have not yet bonded with your dog. if you try to relax and enjoy him, when there are no other people around to lunge at, he will be more relaxed and confident when you have visitors. visitors need to give plenty of space and be a positive experience. instead he may feel bombarded with a full room of you, parents and carpet man.
selective deafness is common i think! i have found a squeaky toy in my pockets works wonders to get his attention back, although occasionally a pheasant flying wins! mostly when he does the wrong thing i realize he is getting mixed messages from me and has only been learning from me for less than 3 months.
 
I think I need to sit down with a trainer and have a brutally honest conversation about his future. I think if I could find someone willing to come and work with us one-on-one it would make a big difference.
He is a sweet dog but the nipping thing is unacceptable.

Commands-wise, I've had to figure out what works and what doesn't - so far the only one he hasn't understood is 'down'.

I think he'll have to be crated because shutting him in the kitchen seems to upset him regardless of if there's someone else in the house or not.

Eta - I never said he was a bad dog. I just said that I don't really want a dog that can't be trusted around guests.
 
Last edited:
If you don't like him scratching the door, could you replace with a dog gate? You will still have to put up with the barking but at least the door won't be getting damaged. We have a very reactive patterdale who was a rescue. We wouldn't dream of letting him free range when someone comes to the door. He would def rush at them and would probably snap. If they were staying or going out for a walk with us I would introduce on a lead, and ask them not to touch him or even look at him. In minutes he is fine and can be trusted otherwise he stays in the kitchen out the way. He might howl but we simply ignore him. I think it's a mindset to get used to. My two dogs I got when I was at uni were amazing, they used to go to the pub, round peoples houses every night and were totally 100% with everyone and anyone. My terrier just won't be, but we know him and know how to protect him from himself and other people.
 
Last edited:
If he doesn't understand down, you could teach it from scratch as 'drop' or 'floor' or something. Meaning 'lie down on the floor' not 'get off the sofa' (off) or 'stop jumping up at me' (no/ah ah/stop).

Yes, the nipping thing is unacceptable but I think giving him free access and then expecting him to be completely neutral to visiting tradesmen when you haven't had him too long, he is seven years old and you don't know his background is a bit of an ask as well x
 
Last edited:
thank you everyone for your advice.

I need to talk to my parents to make sure they're on board with whatever I decide. Lubo sometimes stays with them so they'll need to continue with training if that's the route I decide to go down.

I think my next step will be talking to the rescue tomorrow and then finding a trainer who can come to the house to assess him.

ETA: thanks for the link - was going to look back through my previous thread for it
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top