Following recent sales off verm x ( discuss)

I don't think there was any implication in the PDF that it had been properly published, I happen to think I am not nit picking just ensuring accuracy and that we are talking about the same thing :).

I don't know which is why my posts said I 'suspect' and I 'believe', I do not know that the author is one and the same. But having googled her name, scotland and university and two things come up
http://www.naturalmatters.net/article-view.asp?article=2007 (which states she is studying equine science

and her place of work (where she started in 2007 having gained an equine science degree apparently). I also noted that the dates match 2005 is given in the pdf, the above linked is from 2007.

I should point out I don't go googling people for a pastime but was trying to find any other publications! :D
 
"University Trials show Verm-X to be more effective
than some chemicals – and kinder." implies publication.

The link you posted implies "separate pasture" - not happy about that - should have been on the same pasture - too many variables- again haven't read it all- got that far- saw the study flaw and stopped reading.

I googled her name and the date looking for the actual paper.

Skimming again it reads like advertizing- really think if the results were that amazing or the study was well done it would have been published in a journal- it hasn't been.

Reminds me of the bloody shampoo ads- human shampoo ads.
 
hehe, it doesn't mean they were good university trials,

I didn't actually read the second link for info either, got to thinking the same as you and disregarding it.

very much like shampoo ads, don't get me started on ingredients like 'nutrileum..' :p
 
ester said:
hehe, it doesn't mean they were good university trials,

I didn't actually read the second link for info either, got to thinking the same as you and disregarding it.

very much like shampoo ads, don't get me started on ingredients like 'nutrileum..' :p
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No, but they were clearly trying to imply they were good trials, like when the papers pick up on published research, except when the papers do it the source has been published in a scientific journal. This is an attempt to copy that and imply Verm X is backed by science now. It all reads like an attempt to backhandely advertize Verm X as an effective wormer when it isn't. Just like the shampoo adds and the face cream adds for that matter. Drives me nuts!

(Yes, sometimes I shout at my TV or the content coming from it :mad: - have sky plus now- never watch anything in real time- so I can fast fwd the adds- thay are not good for my health!)
 
That natural matters link is so full of bad science it is almost funny.

Barley, a white 12 hh Welsh Section A pony gelding, soon became intermittently lame and Ann was at a loss at to find the reason why.
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...
it became clear that Barley was under attack from unknown toxins that were causing symptoms associated with laminitis and cushings disease.
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Oh THERE'S the reason why! Just a wild stab in the dark, but is it possible that the intermittent lameness was laminitis caused by Cushings Disease? Or even more likely given the signalment...
10 year old white 12 hh Welsh Section A pony gelding
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...insulin resistance? Or both? And not the mysterious ***CHEMICAL*** wormers and the undefined "toxins" that they bring.

Of course I'm forgetting...
Bingo? Ann realised that the periods of lameness did coincide with their chemical worming programme.
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How could we possibly explain this? I wonder if the times of year that we most frequently worm at (Spring/Autumn) might also be the times of year that endocrinologically challenged horses might be most affected? Nope, ridiculous idea its the toxins from the chemical wormers.


While people like this may have good intentions, and think they have found a great chemical conspiracy, the reality is that the conspiracy does not exist, and the sad truth is that those good intentions lead only to horses dying of preventable disease.
 
Alsiola there is a building number of anecdotes on barefoot sites of horses going footie in the days after worming at any time of year, and I took on one which tied up the day after worming when he never had before. My feeling, from my one, is that many of these horses don't tolerate grass sugars well and may have a liver which is under some pressure, if you see what I mean, and cannot also cope with a wormer on top.

Does that make any sense?

ps I'm not a fan of verm x, I just got the horse onto a correct diet for him (which was grass free) and used chemical wormers from then on. Interestingly, his severe sweet itch also disappeared.
 
maisie06 said:
Why not use Flubenvet - much more effective and reliable, you can eat the eggs while they are being treated too.
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Agree wouldnt use it on my chickens. Had chickens for few years now and only once I spotted what looked like cotton thread one morning(clean bundles of worms about 2 inches in diameter) tried verm x and they then all had them the tray each day was horrendous, it doesnt work, perhaps its preventative but I dont know how that will work. Got myself some Flubenvet powder and gone...I have not wormed them for about 2 years now(chickens) and they are all doing fine.But I too prefer something that is proven medication.

Old plod gets real stuff and I am fortunate enough to have time etc to poo pick every day(was twice a week) I only have one horse now so its easy. He gets wormed twice a year and I alternate the medications around.(I dont buy big brands if it contains the same drug and is cheaper too).
 
cptrayes said:
Alsiola there is a building number of anecdotes on barefoot sites of horses going footie in the days after worming at any time of year, and I took on one which tied up the day after worming when he never had before. My feeling, from my one, is that many of these horses don't tolerate grass sugars well and may have a liver which is under some pressure, if you see what I mean, and cannot also cope with a wormer on top.

Does that make any sense?

ps I'm not a fan of verm x, I just got the horse onto a correct diet for him (which was grass free) and used chemical wormers from then on. Interestingly, his severe sweet itch also disappeared.
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I know that you know my opinions on anecdotal evidence, but even accepting that possibility is no reason to expose any horse to the very real health risks of using an ineffective wormer.

If it isn't being done already then it is worth reporting any adverse drug events to both the manufacturer and to the VMD at the address below so that if there is a real effect then it can be studied.
http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/Compendium/Overview/-46721.html

Personally I would doubt too much involvement of the liver in any possible effect, mainly due to the large reserve capacity of the equine liver. Potentially it could cause an extremely mild colitis with the effect of some endotoxin absorption, with mild laminitis developing as a result in horses already close to the edge (due to grass intolerance or whatever other reason). All speculation on my part here though.
 
Will have to have a read later but I was trying to find out information on Verm X and the word "ASSIST" with worming is what it states in all the adverts I looked at. It doesnt seem to categorically state that it will kill worms and after my chicken experience(use Flubenvet) and now the dead tapeworms yesterday with Strongid P I know what I will be using. The real stuff.

Will read PDf later though so might change my mind.
 
Whilst we are on the subject could I add another question into this discussion? :o
If Verm-X is 'just a preventative' as some people think it may be. Once you have wormed with a chemical wormer and ensured you have everything covered can you just use Verm-X after this to stop anything from returning???
(Whist keeping an on those worm counts of course :) )
 
you could, thing is you won't know if you would continue to get low counts anyway or if the verm-x is helping at all! ie hard to tell if you are wasting your money!
 
cptrayes said:
Alsiola there is a building number of anecdotes on barefoot sites of horses going footie in the days after worming at any time of year, and I took on one which tied up the day after worming when he never had before. My feeling, from my one, is that many of these horses don't tolerate grass sugars well and may have a liver which is under some pressure, if you see what I mean, and cannot also cope with a wormer on top.

Does that make any sense?

ps I'm not a fan of verm x, I just got the horse onto a correct diet for him (which was grass free) and used chemical wormers from then on. Interestingly, his severe sweet itch also disappeared.
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hmm, so assuming that is a real effect - and not just anecdotal nonsense / background - I suspect it would depend more on the formulation of the wormer than the anthelmintic itself.

It would certainly be better, were that the case, to look into different formulations for sugar-intolerant horses, than dabble with verm x type nonsense.
 
Sorry everyone - ANOTHER link for you to look at - http://youtu.be/Rg7sdYsIqSA

This is interesting as it talks about a chemical company doing a flawed trial as a bit of a PR stunt as well. If you have time to watch it through it is the Verm-ex vet at the Animal Health Distributors Conference.

Thoughts very welcome! ;)
 
WelshieMare said:
Sorry everyone - ANOTHER link for you to look at - http://youtu.be/Rg7sdYsIqSA

This is interesting as it talks about a chemical company doing a flawed trial as a bit of a PR stunt as well. If you have time to watch it through it is the Verm-ex vet at the Animal Health Distributors Conference.

Thoughts very welcome! ;)
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There are 6000 studies on herbal medicine, yet he fails to mention a single one that shows his product works. The only study he specifically mentions is one that shows no efficacy (rightly or wrongly). Yes there are herbs that are proven to work, and pharmaceuticals derived from plants that are proven to work. No-one has any problem with these, because they have been proven to work. His product has not been proven to work.

He rants about problems with pharmaceuticals, and there is no doubt that some of these problems are real, and that some studies about pharmaceuticals are flawed. This is nothing but a distraction from the central issue of whether his product works.

Somehow he sees "drugs are designed to do one thing, and they do it" as a negative point.
 
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