Foot issue

[Birker2020]

So, Lari has being doing great with his foot lately but all of a sudden became footy again. Luckily managed to share visit with vet yesterday.

She said definitely not laminitis, no foot shifting, no elevated pulse, no reaction to hoof testers. Very sensitive over salcus area again, he's got deep white line and split cracked hooves that are desperate for a trim, been 6.5 weeks since last one, trying to get hold of farrier. Will do a photo later if anyone is interested.

Thinks may be infection in salcus area. Farrier doesn't seem to trim the frog much for some reason. Hopefully when he visits this time I can be there as I'm currently not working. Of course in the background is the possibility bombshell realisation that we may be looking at a soft tissue injury to the foot but we won't know without MRI which is a route I won't be going down. Strangely enough another horse on the yard, this one a ridden with exactly the same thing, also been suggested MRI, think they've taken the wise decision to turn away for a year.

So I'm waiting on farrier to get back to me. In the meantime I'm squirting hydrogen peroxide into the salcus area and dressing his foot again. He's on one bute twice daily but also 15 paracetamol twice a day for now. Came in much sounder this morning at 6am.

But how on earth do you get a horse to eat paracetamol? I can hear him crunching them and the taste puts him off and he ends up leaving most of it. I've taken his snackaball out and literally made him eat his breakfast before putting the snackaball back in which helped a fair bit but he's still left 2 paracetamol. I don't blame him to be honest!! The tast is horrific.

He's on Mollichaff light, molasses free with a little bit of speedibeet mixed in to make it more palatable and a tiny amount of linseed lozenges for interest. Vet said he looks amazing and his weight is spot on.

If we can't get him sound it looks like I'm going to have to make a decision because the only other option is an mri and there is absolutely no point in this.

Any ideas for getting a horse to eat paracetamol? Off to shop in four different places today for packets of the stuff!

Also picking up more lambswool from a lady locally who saw my neighbourhood website request and has some from her Hallo Fresh order! It's great for cutting into squares for pads, vet thinks it's a great idea.

 

[Amy May In A Manger]

Can you crush the paracetamol up?

 

[TheMule]

Get dissolvable paracetamol and add them to your water when you soak the Speedibeet

 

[meleeka]

I had a large syringe, I think it was 50 or 60ml and mixed with water. It takes a good 10 minutes for them to dissolve in warm water. Then I added a bit of apple juice and syringed it in. I'd have had no hope of mine eating them willingly.

 

[Birker2020]

Get dissolvable paracetamol and add them to your water when you soak the Speedibeet

Where do you get this from? Or do you dissolve yourself as Meleeka has said they do?

The vet offered me powdered paracetamol but knowing how much they charge I declined.

I've got to try and convince the chemist to let me have some hydrogen peroxide. That will be the ext challenge

 

[ycbm]

Please B, test him for Cushings.

You can buy peroxide from Ebay at 30 vol. That means it's 30%. Water it down by 10.

Or you can buy 3% as contact lens disinfectant in chemists.
.

 

[94lunagem]

Can you crush the paracetamol up?

That’s the easiest way, then hide it in something palatable. Or make a core in an apple or carrot and fill it.

Please B, test him for Cushings.

This every day of the week, I really don’t understand why a simple blood test hasn’t been ruled out already (in recent terms).

 

[TheMule]

Where do you get this from? Or do you dissolve yourself as Meleeka has said they do?

The vet offered me powdered paracetamol but knowing how much they charge I declined.

I've got to try and convince the chemist to let me have some hydrogen peroxide. That will be the ext challenge

Available in any supermarket/ pharmacy. Much easier than trying to work with the normal tablets

 

[Highmileagereindeer]

Crush paracetamol and sprinkle on a jam sandwich.
When Old Dobbin needed paracetamol following dental work, my local corner shop was happy to sell me a dozen boxes at a time, as he said the two per customer rule only applied to supermarkets. No idea if Mr Ahmed was correct or not.....
Hard ground often means bruised soles or abscess brewing up. Will Lari stand with his foot in a bucket of warm water, to soften the hoof and allow healing?
Do you think he has done some ligament damage, when playing with field mates?

 

[Barton Bounty]

Where do you get this from? Or do you dissolve yourself as Meleeka has said they do?

The vet offered me powdered paracetamol but knowing how much they charge I declined.

I've got to try and convince the chemist to let me have some hydrogen peroxide. That will be the ext challenge

You can buy effervescent paracetamol over the counter id use that

 

[Britestar]

Get round tables not capsules.

Drop these into the beet and leave for 10/15 minutes. They start to break up themselves, then you mix the rest of the food in.

 

[Birker2020]

This every day of the week, I really don’t understand why a simple blood test hasn’t been ruled out already (in recent terms).

I've been down this route before when he was tested for EMS which was very negative. This was on the insistence of people on the forum.

As for the symptoms of cushings:

He doesn't drink much water.
He loses his coat really quickly when he moults. Never hangs on to it.
He doesn't have abnormal data deposits.
He doesn't sweat anymore than any other horse. certainly not sweat patches unless transported and then he always gets a patch on his neck.
He isn't excessively tired.
He doesn't have a curly coat, not even remotely curly.
Since being home he's not lost weight.
He's not aggressive or depressed.

Can i just ask that on the absence of all the symptoms why you think he has cushings because I've asked two different vets now, the one when he had his teeth floated recently and the one that I had yesterday who did all the xrays, nerve block and scans around January time?

If the vet comes out again I'll ask her to run bloods but I am 100% certain as is everyone else that he doesn't have cushings.

 

[Birker2020]

Crush paracetamol and sprinkle on a jam sandwich.
When Old Dobbin needed paracetamol following dental work, my local corner shop was happy to sell me a dozen boxes at a time, as he said the two per customer rule only applied to supermarkets. No idea if Mr Ahmed was correct or not.....
Hard ground often means bruised soles or abscess brewing up. Will Lari stand with his foot in a bucket of warm water, to soften the hoof and allow healing?
Do you think he has done some ligament damage, when playing with field mates?

The farrier did say he'd got two deep seated bruises on his near fore and another one on his off fore. That was 6.5 weeks ago.

He could well have done his DDFT where it inserts into the coffin bone. But I'd expect it to be constant rather than crop up once every 10- 14 days.

The salcus area is very sore. Has been for a long time now.

 

[meleeka]

I've been down this route before when he was tested for EMS which was very negative. This was on the insistence of people on the forum.

As for the symptoms of cushings:

He doesn't drink much water.
He loses his coat really quickly when he moults. Never hangs on to it.
He doesn't have abnormal data deposits.
He doesn't sweat anymore than any other horse. certainly not sweat patches unless transported and then he always gets a patch on his neck.
He isn't excessively tired.
He doesn't have a curly coat, not even remotely curly.
Since being home he's not lost weight.
He's not aggressive or depressed.

So why do you think he has cushings because I've asked two different vets now, the one when he had his teeth floated recently and the one that I had yesterday who did all the xrays, nerve block and scans around January time?

If the vet comes out again I'll ask her to run bloods but I am 100% certain as is everyone else that he doesn't have cushings.

How old is he? A cautionary tale if I may? My big mare had an abscess that wouldn't burst, then it did, but another popped up. At no stage was she hopping lame. Once the abscesses resolved, she just wasn't quite sound. The lameness was on and off for a few weeks, but she was a lot better with a boot on. I had her tested and it came back borderline. The vet didn't want to treat at those levels and the lameness was still intermittent. We then xrayed and found that her pedal bone was dangerously close to coming through her sole. It was fortunate that her sole was so thick and hard or it might have done. She was PTS the same day. She had no symptoms of cushings and no classic symptoms of laminitis either. I do wish now that I'd tested her sooner and insisted on a trial of prascend and also that I'd pushed for x-rays when my vet was just treating a tricky abscess.

It's probably not cushings and probably nothing more than a bruise, but it might just be, so worth the cost just for peace of mind if nothing else.

 

[Surbie]

You can get liquid paracetamol too - I dont know how pricey it is, just that a horse on my yard is on it after many failed attempts with tablets & crushing them to syringe in.

If he has a deep white line and cracked feet, plus being overdue for the farrier that will all be contributing to being sore. And I would argue that the white line is showing you laminitic changes because it doesn't stretch/go deep for nothing.

I do hope it is just bruising, you've been through the mill with both Bailey and Lari, but at his age I'd be Cushings testing too, irrespective of lack of symptoms. My lad is having the test soon too.

 

[Birker2020]

How old is he? A cautionary tale if I may? My big mare had an abscess that wouldn't burst, then it did, but another popped up. At no stage was she hopping lame. Once the abscesses resolved, she just wasn't quite sound. The lameness was on and off for a few weeks, but she was a lot better with a boot on. I had her tested and it came back borderline. The vet didn't want to treat at those levels and the lameness was still intermittent. We then xrayed and found that her pedal bone was dangerously close to coming through her sole. It was fortunate that her sole was so thick and hard or it might have done. She was PTS the same day. She had no symptoms of cushings and no classic symptoms of laminitis either. I do wish now that I'd tested her sooner and insisted on a trial of prascend and also that I'd pushed for x-rays when my vet was just treating a tricky abscess.

It's probably not cushings and probably nothing more than a bruise, but it might just be, so worth the cost just for peace of mind if nothing else.

Sorry to hear that. His foot was xrayed recently and nothing of any significance found. Certainly no rotation x

 

[Birker2020]

I'll take a photo later.

 

[94lunagem]

I've been down this route before when he was tested for EMS which was very negative.

How long ago? Things change… and can change quickly sometimes.

I would be testing for peace of mind simply because of age and being footy, regardless of lack of other symptoms.

You say if you can’t get him sound you’ll have to make a decision, so if you’ve got to that stage and for the sake of a blood test I just don’t get why you wouldn’t.

 

[Northern Hare]

You can get paracetamol online that you can buy in larger quantities than in the shop. For a short while, I had to give my horse something like 20 tablets twice a day as he couldn't have bute.

I used a mini liquidiser to grind the tablets into a powder, and then used some high accuracy digital scales to weigh out the powder into plastic pill bottles i bought online. I was careful to label the bottles and keep them safe.

I then added the powder and some honey / molasses to his feeds. I tried all sorts of other ways to get him to eat it, but that was the only one that consistently worked.

 

[Equi]

Buy paracetamol capsules instead of tablets. Simply open the capsules and sprinkle.

 

[ycbm]

Can i just ask that on the absence of all the symptoms why you think he has cushings because I've asked two different vets now, the one when he had his teeth floated recently and the one that I had yesterday who did all the xrays, nerve block and scans around January time?

Because repeated thrush and abscess problems are a clear sign of Cushings even in the absence of any other symptoms. Most vets for some reason seem completely unaware of this and are very reluctant, who knows why, to test when the test is harmless.

I was dealing with a 9 year old who had great feet but simply couldn't seem able to manage stones barefoot. I recommended the owner to test for Cushings. Her vet refused. She insisted. The test was done and the vet had to apologise when a very clear positive resulted.
.

 

[ester]

He's got more symptoms than frank ever had.

 

[TheresaW]

He’s got more than Dolly had. She was never footy, no curly coat or anything.

 

[AdorableAlice]

I've been down this route before when he was tested for EMS which was very negative. This was on the insistence of people on the forum.

As for the symptoms of cushings:

He doesn't drink much water.
He loses his coat really quickly when he moults. Never hangs on to it.
He doesn't have abnormal data deposits.
He doesn't sweat anymore than any other horse. certainly not sweat patches unless transported and then he always gets a patch on his neck.
He isn't excessively tired.
He doesn't have a curly coat, not even remotely curly.
Since being home he's not lost weight.
He's not aggressive or depressed.

Can i just ask that on the absence of all the symptoms why you think he has cushings because I've asked two different vets now, the one when he had his teeth floated recently and the one that I had yesterday who did all the xrays, nerve block and scans around January time?

If the vet comes out again I'll ask her to run bloods but I am 100% certain as is everyone else that he doesn't have cushings.

The picture below is a cushingoid horse who also fits the description you have detailed above. They don't have to present obvious symptoms, mine certainly did not but at age 18 he became footy at pasture when the ground or weather conditions changed, he was unshod and retired. My highly respected and experienced farrier wasn't finding anything of particular interest, but my vet didn't want to do anything until we had tested and sure enough we had a very positive result in dire need of treatment. The day the horse was tested he still looked and acted like the multi champion show hunter and high level dressage horse he was in his working life.

Looking at horses does not tell you they have or do not have the disease. This picture would not give concern other than an obvious loss of the top he had as a competition horse. He was 27 when this picture was taken.

If you are seeing the points you have detailed they are often well into the disease. We are all used to seeing the stereotypical fluffy pony pictures but each animal is an individual. It is pennies to test the horse and the chance of a positive return gets ever higher with advancing age. I've yet to meet an experienced equine vet that would advise against testing an aging horse presenting with reoccurring foot problems. The money you can spend on poultice, vet wrap, vet visit shared or not and farrier will soon exceed the cost of testing. If you get a positive there is a decision to be made on whether you want to buy the drugs of course. It certainly is costly if they need a high dose per day. As an owner I would sooner have a definite answer rather than guessing each and every time the horse went footy.

Going back to the list you have stated, my horse was lost recently at 31 years of age and the only symptom he showed throughout his life with cushings, was being slow to drop a winter coat which was never curly and that did not start to happen until he was 29 years of age. I kept him clipped all year round to ensure his comfort.

 

[FieldOrnaments]

I've been down this route before when he was tested for EMS which was very negative. This was on the insistence of people on the forum.

As for the symptoms of cushings:

He doesn't drink much water.
He loses his coat really quickly when he moults. Never hangs on to it.
He doesn't have abnormal data deposits.
He doesn't sweat anymore than any other horse. certainly not sweat patches unless transported and then he always gets a patch on his neck.
He isn't excessively tired.
He doesn't have a curly coat, not even remotely curly.
Since being home he's not lost weight.
He's not aggressive or depressed.

Can i just ask that on the absence of all the symptoms why you think he has cushings because I've asked two different vets now, the one when he had his teeth floated recently and the one that I had yesterday who did all the xrays, nerve block and scans around January time?

If the vet comes out again I'll ask her to run bloods but I am 100% certain as is everyone else that he doesn't have cushings.

They can have very atypical symptoms.

Divas only symptoms were occasional footiness, and puffy eyes - she was 13 when Dx and spot on weight wise too (440 ish, chunky 14.3h). Both we and our vets were very surprised when she came back positive on TRH stim.

Even if he's not it's always helpful to rule things out I feel and blood testing for ppid is not very expensive in the scheme of things.

 

[Red-1]

If his central sulcus is deep, I would be betting on that. I would get a hoof knife and rasp and open the deep area up, as well as tidy the foot. I'd do minimal right now, but have the farrier show you how when he/she is next there so you can confidently keep the feet in order between visits.

 

[Tiddlypom]

You’ve reported issues with Lari having thrush on and off for years, including earlier this year. What ongoing care for the thrush have you been giving him? Deeply seated thrush can make a horse very, very sore indeed, and being thrush prone is another symptom of Cushing’s. You have to keep on top of thrush every single day.

Both of my Cushing’s mares would have persistent thrush if I let up on their daily hoof care regime. They are fairly easy keepers apart from that. I know I need to never rest in my laurels and presume that the thrush is completely gone - if I did it would be back.

You could trim the frogs yourself with a hoof knife in between farrier visits if needed.

 

[Birker2020]

If his central sulcus is deep, I would be betting on that. I would get a hoof knife and rasp and open the deep area up, as well as tidy the foot. I'd do minimal right now, but have the farrier show you how when he/she is next there so you can confidently keep the feet in order between visits.

He's coming on Wednesday lunch time as he text me earlier.

These are what his feet look like. The pair were from earlier last week the first two were taken earlier this afternoon. They are very dished so all his weight is on the walls.

Photo 4 and the circles are to show the horn that is breaking away from the sole. You can get your finger under and break it off not that I have done that.

In view of the fact it's been 6.5 weeks since last trimmed do you think a five week cycle would benefit?

 

[ycbm]

He's got laid over bars that should have been removed. Treading on those is like treading on a stone and enough to cause bruising. The bit at the toe is false sole and should also have been removed. And the walls are far too long. You need a better trimmer.

 

[DizzyDoughnut]

One of mine gets sore and lame if his bars get even slightly to long. I've bought myself a pair of nippers so I can keep on top of them, I'm sure if his bars looked like Laris he'd be very lame. I've also bought myself a rasp so I can keep on top of any chips. I'm still to nervous to actually try and do a full trim incase I end up causing an issue but it's really handy to just do little corrections when needed between farrier visits.