Foot lameness rehab?

Equitune, at the risk of generalising, the barefoot cases that are not so successful are usually those where the owner takes the shoes off and carries on as normal.

To have a realistic chance of success, especially where there are pathological issues, a structured programme has to be followed to the letter. I think this is where Rockley Farm succeeds, because the horses are being rehabilitated in a controlled environment, whereas owners often lack the patience to see the transition phase through. In these cases it can benefit the horse to be removed from the owner to a programme that doesn't place unrealistic demands on the horse before it is ready.

Consequently I think what cptrayes is offering stands a high chance of success.
 
Some barefoot rehab is not successful because the damage is too great to repair. Pete Ramey told a story against himself in his early days of barefoot rehab when he was buying lame horses from the local abbatoir. He tried for months to get the horse sound, and then eventually gave up and it was PTS. On the PM he discovered, to his great shame, that the bone in the foot was severely damaged. That is why he now always insists on X rays before taking on a barefoot rehab horse, as would an UK practitioner.

But still, there are some stories on the various barefoot sites that reduce you to tears. Horses snatched from the brink of PTS, going out hunting again, enjoying a sound pain free life.
There was one in H & Hound in a report from the Exmoor, but I don't think the reporter noticed that the horse didn't have any shoes.
 
I so wish I could have sent you my Swan who sadly I had PTS a year ago. He was terribly flat footed ex racehorse more on one front foot than the other. I had him ex rayed, had bar shoes and pads, remedial shoeing, special plastic shoe, trimmed every four weeks. Finally after this didn't work, I had a barefoot trimmer come and look at him, she said he was the worst she had ever seen and couldn't do anything for him. She did offer for him to stay with them (me paying) so that she could work with him. Unfortunately, I couldn't afford the hundreds it would cost and didn't want him to suffer, so made the decision to have him put to sleep. Think its fantastic work and just wish I had had the funds. Good Luck in your search
 
@ CharlieChalk

Is your horse Bobby? Charlie's owner posted separately and mine is Frankie the big bay TB so that leaves Bobby as the other new rehab there. I'm going to visit in a couple of weeks.

For anyone who doesn't have a suitable candidate for Cptrayes but is genuinely interested it strikes me there are horses who have just gone to Rockley to be rehabbed whose owners post on here so you have a perfect opportunity to follow their progress from the start. Mine is the sort that people said could never go barefoot and my vet was very sceptical though he did agree to refer him.
PM me if you want to hear more so as not to hijack the post.
 
It depends which organisation you train with.

I trained in the US with the AANHCP - the original natural hoofcare organisation. The training is intensive (done by Jaime Jackson the pioneer of modern barefoot on a one to one basis) starting with a two week in depth boot camp... mixing both theory work in the classroom and practical work with cadavar hooves and live horses. We had technical exams every day - if you didn't pass you couldn't go onto the next level of study. This is followed by a series of in the field mentorships covering ten days in total trimming at least three horses each day. One successful completion of that there is a field exam and a theory exam - both extremely stringent. And following that is a period of two years where you do repeated mentorships and training days to ensure you are trimming to the required standards of the AANHCP - if you don't come up to the required standard you get kicked out of the organisation. In relation to the UK the AANHCP is working with LANTRA to develop training guidelines and standards which will result in a set of National Occupational Standards.

The other organisations offer their own training courses. Applied Equine Podiatry have various lengths of courses, including some online, but to be fully qualified you have to to their Diplomas which I believe can be done in a minimum of six months. The Equine Podiatry association is the UK based off shoot of the AEP - they run a two year part time course, followed by one year of CPD. The UKNHCP also run a part time one year training course, followed by five months preparing case studies and a final exam.

So whilst it is possible for anyone to set themselves up as a trimmer having read a book or done an online course there are also many trimmers who have undertaken excellent training from the best in the business.
 
Greedyguts have you missed my question?

"I'd be very interested to know what things would make you think a barefoot approach should not be tried in a horse that would otherwise be put to sleep? Serious question, not a jibe, particularly since I may have one arriving here tomorrow instead of keeping his appointment with the vet. (Crippling and uncontrollable pain, obviously, but aside from that?)"

As an addition to what you have been told above, training by the Strasser method, where cuts are made into live parts of the hoof, will not meet the new Occupational Standards. All the others listed will, though clearly, as with farriers, there are barefoot hoofcare people who will know what they are doing better than others. And those who understand that the trim is the least important bit will do the best.

If the horse I am expecting to take on arrives then his progress can be followed daily on my blog. I don't accept anonymous comments on my blog so if you want to read it, PM me with your email address and I will let you know where it is.

There is a terrific resistance (which can be seen on this forum from time to time and found in any bunch of vets or farriers) to believing that navicular horses can be cured. A friend of mine has pointed out that this is probably because if we admit it then we have to admit that we have been doing the wrong thing for decades, and that many horses have been put to sleep for no good reason. I am hoping that we are on the cusp of accepting that having killed horses for no good reason in the past is itself no reason to carry on doing it - especially not in the face of what is becoming overwhelming evidence that there is a cure.

I have no idea if the horse I am hoping to take can be cured. He is insulin resistant as well as having "navicular syndrome" (now an outmoded diagnosis). But dietary control is a huge part of successful barefoot at high performance levels where my horses work, so I'm going to give him my best shot if his owner will let me.
 
I wish you every success in your experiment. I don't agree that vets and farriers do not want to accept your theory that navicular horses can be cured because to do so would be to admit they were wrong. Every farrier and vet who I have ever spoke to has a genuine desire to do what is best for a horse and the ones I have spoken to have been all willing to learn and explore new ideas.

Whilst I cannot disagree with your saying that in your experience every horse that has been barefoot rehabilitated has been cured, I can say that this is not true for every horse with navicular. I can fully accept that barefoot rehab does not involve just taking the shoes off but my difficulty with the whole barefoot debate has been that there are people who believe that if barefoot does not work for a navicular horse then it is becaus the owner has failed to do the rehab correctly.

It has been my experience that some barefoot enthusiasts do not accept that barefoot will not work for some horses. I don't see why this is so. I don't have a problem accepting that barefoot works remarkably well for some horses and does give them a better future than they could have expected.

Barefoot did not work for my horse, it just made him very sore. I feel horribly guilty about letting him go through it. I managed his diet and enviroment by the way and he had boa boots on whenever he worked. He needed corrective shoeing and he is now 100 times better than he was and is out hunting again.

I am aware that you only wanted responses from people who are willing to sell you their horse to experiment on but I feel it is important to let people know who may be considering this that barefoot isn't a cure for all horses with navicuar and can do damage.

I would not be willing to let a horse of mine go to someone who has such fixed ideas on shoeing and barefoot. Sorry
 
A1fie,

Before you can say that your horse could not cope barefoot, you need to answer some questions I have asked you before on another thread and you have not responded to. Navicular would not have made his soles footsore. Metabolic issues would, and would also cause the weak feet that might have allowed him to develop navicular in the first place.

How did you manage his diet? Was he on any commercial horse feeds? Was he on commercial "balancers" or "hoof supplements"? Did you have his hay/haylage analysed for sugar and mineral content? Did you have each of your grazing areas analysed for mineral deficiencies? Did you test him for insulin resistance? Did you control every mouthful of grass he ate? Unfortunately, the worst cases need that level of control. Yours might have done and unless you were able to do it, it is too early to say that barefoot "did not work".

What we can all agree of course is that not everyone can provide what any particular horse needs to make it work (assuming it is not beyond help, which clearly yours wasn't because he is sound in remedial shoes) . And if they can't then there is no problem with having them shod if that does work, as it does for you. I am pleased for you.

I am also pleased for the horse who was due to be put to sleep tomorrow that he will, instead, be delivered to me on Sunday so that we can give him a chance to come right with a proper barefoot rehab. I don't know if he'll make it, but shooting him with his shoes still on and dietary issues uncontrolled certainly isn't the right way to go.
 
I am sorry for not answering your questions on another thread, I genuinely did not see them.

Last year he was being fed a handful of nuts a day with some alfalfa. He was on hay not haylage. I can accept that diet plays a part but I don't believe that his diet made the difference between him being sound and lame. He was not on any balancers or hoof supplements, other than keratex hoof hardener when his shoes came off. He was on alphabute, cosequin, msn and cider vinegar.

I do not believe that barefoot didn't work for him because of any of the supplementals that you mention. I believe that it did not work because his feet needed support in the form of remidial shoes.

I have tried practically everytype of shoeing - even the very odd edward clogs, and I was so keen to try him without. I read a lot about it and was absolutely convinced it would work but he still landed toe first and not heel and shuffled about.

It was only when xrays were taken that my vet and farrier could clearly see what was happening and they found a combination of pads, rails and special shoes that work for him and enable him to land feet first.

I do believe that bad shoeing in the past and too much work too young exacerbated his problems but he also suffers from bad conformation which didn't help. He was going to be shot at the age of 7 and would have been a suitable candidate for you.

I don't agree with your statement that 'not everyone can provide what any particular horse needs to make (barefoot) work' because I don't think that even with all the considerations you suggest such as diet and enviroment, that barefoot will work for every horse and if it doesn't, it is somehow the owners failure.

You can say that I mightn't have given my horse enough time but there was only so long I could justify seeing my horse unconfortable without any sign of improvement before I said enough. Sure if I'd left him without shoes for a few years he would have probably adapted but I'm not that stubborn.

Good luck with your horse when he comes. If barefoot doesn't work with him, will you try remedial shoeing?
 
" I can accept that diet plays a part but I don't believe that his diet made the difference between him being sound and lame. "

It does in some of my horses and thousands of others, why wouldn't it in yours? As you describe it, your issue with barefoot was not the lameness from navicular, but footsoreness. That is either a lack of conditioning on the right surfaces, or a metabolic issue which dietary changes might have addressed.

"I don't agree with your statement that 'not everyone can provide what any particular horse needs to make (barefoot) work' because I don't think that even with all the considerations you suggest such as diet and enviroment, that barefoot will work for every horse and if it doesn't, it is somehow the owners failure. "

I'm not saying it will work for every horse. But for most of the failures it's the owner that can't provide what the horse needs that's the problem. The trouble is that it isn't easy for owners to do what some of the difficult cases needs, and in that case they need to shoe and there is nothing wrong with that. My statement about how some owners finding it difficult to provide what a their horse needs is clearly correct - how could it not be? For example, I am able to spend great lengths of time walking my rehab in hand and I have the perfect conformable but abrasive surface on which to do it. I'm lucky, not everyone can provide that.

It is YOUR assumption that I meant that ALL horses could therefore do barefoot. I am saying no such thing. It is YOUR assumption that I am saying that owners "fail" their horses if they cannot provide everything it needs and have shoes. I am saying no such thing, shoes are the right solution for many horse/owner partnerships.

"You can say that I mightn't have given my horse enough time but there was only so long I could justify seeing my horse unconfortable without any sign of improvement before I said enough. Sure if I'd left him without shoes for a few years he would have probably adapted but I'm not that stubborn. "

No horse should be left in pain, never mind for that long. A proper barefoot rehab only exposes the horse to surfaces that he is comfortable on at the stage of recovery that he has reached.

"Good luck with your horse when he comes. If barefoot doesn't work with him, will you try remedial shoeing?"

I hardly think so. He has already been crippled by remedial shoeing, which has made his thin soles even thinner. I don't share your faith in remedial shoeing, which is a bandage to mask a problem and not a solution to the problem itself. That bandage often works, and I hope for your sake that yours continues to. But if it should start to fail, please do consider a professional barefoot rehab before you have your horse put to sleep.
 
[ QUOTE ]
" I can accept that diet plays a part but I don't believe that his diet made the difference between him being sound and lame. "

It does in some of my horses and thousands of others, why wouldn't it in yours? As you describe it, your issue with barefoot was not the lameness from navicular, but footsoreness. That is either a lack of conditioning on the right surfaces, or a metabolic issue which dietary changes might have addressed.

"I don't agree with your statement that 'not everyone can provide what any particular horse needs to make (barefoot) work' because I don't think that even with all the considerations you suggest such as diet and enviroment, that barefoot will work for every horse and if it doesn't, it is somehow the owners failure. "

I'm not saying it will work for every horse. But for most of the failures it's the owner that can't provide what the horse needs that's the problem. The trouble is that it isn't easy for owners to do what some of the difficult cases needs, and in that case they need to shoe and there is nothing wrong with that. My statement about how some owners finding it difficult to provide what a their horse needs is clearly correct - how could it not be? For example, I am able to spend great lengths of time walking my rehab in hand and I have the perfect conformable but abrasive surface on which to do it. I'm lucky, not everyone can provide that.


[/ QUOTE ]
this makes interesting reading.. i have a question regarding the diet aspect that you mention. what changes would you make to a horses diet to assist his rehab?

so for example my TB, complete with typical TB feet (better than in previous years but still a bit flat and thin soled) is fed on commercial feeds; Alfa-A, Baileys No4, Speedibeet and Barley rings added in the winter. in order to keep his condition but aid his feet, what would you suggest?
 
cptrayes can I ask you something please?
I had my ponies shoes taken off mid January, he is fine on a smooth tarmac surface, but as soon as he treads on a small stone, its like ouch!!
He wears old macs for hacking which are fab; My question is, If I walk him in hand each day should he improve, and how long should I do it for. Should I make him go over stones? I don't like to see him uncomfortable.
He is fed Lucie Stalks, Kwickbeet and Total Eclipse, he's out at night on good grazing( but not much of it), in during the day with ad lib hay.
Also, do you think Alfalfa can cause footiness?
Thanks
 
I would suggest that you do the research that most of us who have rehabbed horses have done. Start with buying yourself the book Feet First from Amazon and follow the pointers that will give you to further research that you can do if you are seriously interested in hoof and horse health.

I'm not a professional nutritionist or horse person, so I can't give you advice on feeding your horse, sorry. But I will say look on the white bag labels on your food and ignore the marketing hype on the bags. You will find that at least two of the feeds you are giving your horse have sugar added to them. Molasses, or wheat/corn syrup - neither good for barefooters.
 
Coolrunnings I think you might be better off talking to people on UKNHCP.myfastforum.com where you will find people who have been through the same thing. In general though, no, you shouldn't make your pony do anything he is clearly uncomfortable with but you should do plenty of what he IS comfortable doing, so keep him on the smooth tarmac and off the stones.
 
I have tried to have a discussion with you about this subject before but you got defensive and felt victimised. I should not have joined this discussion because you won't accept any other view but your own.

Horses are individuals. One solution does not fit all. Your inability to accept any other view but your own makes having a discussion pointless.

Your comment that if owners aren't prepared to put the time in or lucky enough to have the facilities to manage their horses feet properly, then they would be better with shoes is patronising.

You are not a vet. You are not a farrier. You are zealous about your beliefs and close minded about shoeing. I would not let a horse anywhere near you. Sorry.
 
Coolrunnings, my gelding was a little like that, that he was sore when walking on stones. Turned out he had too little padding/hoof between his sole, and pedal bone, so with every stone he stood on, he was getting hurt. He had to have pads put onto his shoes, so that it was like a cushioning layer, and then he got fed biotin. Eventually, when he had build up enough hoof himself, he got his pads taken off, so now he doesn't need the pads, and is fine on stones etc.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I have tried to have a discussion with you about this subject before but you got defensive and felt victimised. I should not have joined this discussion because you won't accept any other view but your own.

Horses are individuals. One solution does not fit all. Your inability to accept any other view but your own makes having a discussion pointless.

Your comment that if owners aren't prepared to put the time in or lucky enough to have the facilities to manage their horses feet properly, then they would be better with shoes is patronising.

You are not a vet. You are not a farrier. You are zealous about your beliefs and close minded about shoeing. I would not let a horse anywhere near you. Sorry.

[/ QUOTE ]


Which bit of what I write don't you agree with A1fie? The bit where I say some horses are better off in shoes? The bit where I say better a sound shod horse than a lame barefoot one? The bit where I say some horses are terribly difficult to manage barefoot and I don't blame owners one bit for shoeing? The bit where I say not all horses can or should do it?

I said owners CANNOT find the time, not that they don't want to. I don't work 5 days a week or bring up childre, if I did I couldn't do what I do and neither could my horses. And what is patronising about recognising my incredible luck in living where I do, and having the time and facilities that I have, for goodness sake? Or sympathising with people who aren't as lucky as me?

It seems to me that YOU are feeling guilty about your horse and projecting that onto me, claiming that I have a "one size fits all" approach. Nothing could be further from the truth.

If you would rather shoot a horse lame in shoes than let it near me, then that says everything really, doesn't it?
 
cptrayes

I can see you are looking to buy but would you consider a loan?

"I have to own it because I do not rehab horses as a profession and have no insurance cover should anything happen to it while it is on my premises."

Would a loan agreement not cover this?

I have an ISH mare with a complicated medical and behavioural past. I've owned her 18 months in which time she has been diagnosed with navicular but shown none of the behavioural issues old vet records stated.
 
Thanks Shellonabeach, but I have a horse arriving on Sunday. He's missed his appointment with Dr Death today!

I think to be honest if you want to keep ownership of your mare you are going to need to pay for a professional rehab. I can't imagine there would be many more daft twits out there like me prepared to do one at my own expense and then hand it back.
 
"I think to be honest if you want to keep ownership of your mare you are going to need to pay for a professional rehab. I can't imagine there would be many more daft twits out there like me prepared to do one at my own expense and then hand it back. "

TBH I find this a little offensive. I bought my mare for meat money to stop her going to auction to give her a chance where others didn't. In the 18 months I have had her I have shelled out a lot of time money and made a "dangerous" unhappy mare into a lovely person and will continue to do so. Never in a million years would I have expected someone else to be out of pocket rehabbing my mare - and maybe if you had PM'd me instead of knocking me down on an open forum I could have explained this.

As it happens I have been exploring the idea of sending her to Rockley Farm and it is not the cost, but the distance, which is my issue!

Equally I would not be a daft enough twit to give away a very well bred, graded and registered mare who will be spending the rest of her days with me be it as a dressage princess, happy hacker or field ornament.

I'm glad however you have found a horse who needs a bit of good luck - best wishes go to him
 
I was being rude to myself, it was not intended as a criticism of you.

If you wanted a private response then you should have PMd me. I had no intention of causing you offence and I am sorry that you have found it where none was meant.
 
I was told last year that my 4 year old had nevicula i was gutted but we are working with him my farrier and my vet are great they are both helping me with him he has an extra bone on the outside of the nervicula bone on both feet he is in bar shoes as his bones are on a slant and causeing him pain so we are keeping a bit of foot on the inside and he is doing very well he is a loss of use case but he will not be pts he is with me for life i have been told that i may get back on hin nexted year as he is having 2years off to grow up a bit more i have had xrays 4 sets and there is no change but he is happy running in the field and playing with his friends and is haveing loads of love off him mum
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top