footiness! Help!

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CBFan

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Before I start this isn't a barefoot / shoeing debate.

My 17.1hh and still growing Cleveland bay is barefoot and was, late on Saturday morning turned out on much longer, lusher grass than he is used to. he was bought off the grass for about 4 hours each day and lunged on the sunday morning. Sunday evening seemed fine but by monday morning was noicably sore over stony ground and stood on the rough concrete yard. I imediately stabled him with a small amount of soaked hay where he chose to stand on his deep bed rather than his rubber mats. He had no bounding digital pulse and no heat in his feet so I am confident I caught him early. I kept him in from monday morning until yesterday evening when he had made a 100% improvement (and was literally climbing the walls to come out!) he had an hour out last night and a couple this morning and seems fine. I plan to continue with this, increasing a little every few days but only to a maximum of 10 hours a day...and I'm trying to organise a less lush paddock and possibly a grazing muzzle and long term, a yard more suited to our needs. Am I right in thinking he is ok to go out for an hour or so a day as long as he is and remains comfortable? I understand it is a matter of quantity and tollrance when it comes to sugars where the 'know it alls' on the yard say he should be stabled for the next month and never be allowed grass again!! I am (as usual in these situatuions) in a massive catch 22 situation with him as he has shivers (undiagnosed by a vet as yet but classic signs) so it's best to keep him moving as much as possible.... help! Advice?!

I am so gratefull he doesn't have shoes on as I believe this meant I caught this very early before it progressed to full blown lami...
 
He's got no shoes on so he can tell you if he his happy, so just listen to him and turn him out as much as he can tolerate. Is there a nice stony bit of track or ground you can test him on every day? I find it helps to have a test patch, to check how they are doing from one day to the next.

You will probably find it much easier to manage him if he can be turned out at night instead of during the day. The grass sugars are much lower at night. If it has to be daytime try and make it the morning and not the afternoon for the same reason.

If the impossible happens and you get warm weather straight after all this rain, be very careful for a few days.

You are far from alone, there seems to be quite a propensity among Cleveland Bays not to be able to tolerate too much grass and be happy barefoot.
 
when my pony came in 'footy', he was bedded on deep shavings, soaked hay and handful of safe and sound. he too has always been barefoot. he was quiet for 2 days and then magically was climbing the stable door. he got trotted up and was comfortable and was just put back out into a bare paddock with soaked hay 3 times a day for 4 weeks with the last week being put out on the main field an hour to start with and gradually increased. as we weren't sure what had triggered a very random attack of soreness(turned out to be start of cushings), introducing him back meant i could keep an eye on any soreness occurring from increasing grass access.

hes now back to normal 24/7 living out routine however i am overly cautious with new grass coming through and when we had frosty mornings with sun in the winter. he has a grazing muzzle on through the day so he doesn't have gorging access to grass when sugar is highest or he gets brought in till 3ish to have some soaked hay instead.
 
Thanks Cptrayes - you have just reinforced exactly what I was thinking luckily our yard is stony so it's the perfect test for him :) sadly all the 'know it alls' just tell me to put shoes on him as 'he wont feel the stones then!'... never mind he could end up with his pedal bone dropping through his sole lol!

I was going to turnout at night, however it is a slightly longer period of time and obviously little or no flexibility as to how long he is out for so I thought, at least to begin with, I'd see how many daytime hours he can cope with as a rule of thumb. How significantly do the sugar levels differ night to day? I always understood it was better to turnout at night but not sure how much!

The first 24 hours he was very quiet... since then his bed has been trashed and he has been quite agitated - wanting out... think it's safe to say he's feeling better :)
 
Ah the demon grass strikes again! Poor lad, its feast or famine isn't it! LOL

I'd join phoenixhorse.myfastforum..its the new forum ran by Sarah Braithwaite and there is a wealth of knowledge on there. I've got so much help from them regarding Teddy and gained so much more understanding about the minerals I feed and why!

Good luck, hope he's feeling better today and well done you for noticing so quickly. As you know, some people suggested I shoe Teddy (and I did consider it) but the difference in him now is simply outstanding!
 
cblover said:
Ah the demon grass strikes again! Poor lad, its feast or famine isn't it! LOL

I'd join phoenixhorse.myfastforum..its the new forum ran by Sarah Braithwaite and there is a wealth of knowledge on there. I've got so much help from them regarding Teddy and gained so much more understanding about the minerals I feed and why!

Good luck, hope he's feeling better today and well done you for noticing so quickly. As you know, some people suggested I shoe Teddy (and I did consider it) but the difference in him now is simply outstanding!
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I am a lurker on there ;) and yes, I know all the troubles you had with Teddy, which is what prompted me to get a forrage analysis done on my hay and a feeding plan written. I would get a grass one done but the grass in our usual field isn't long enough to get a sample and current field is only a temporary one... that last year's hay was cut off so in theory the hay analysis should give me some indication of what the grass is like (I know it isn't as simple as that though.) Sadly our hay supply is running low so when it's gone, Im going to be up the creek without a paddle. So frustrating!!!

Thank you again. He is much happier today - I left him at lunchtime kicking his ball round his stable so I hope that means he wont have kicked his bed to bits in the 6 hours since I came back to work!
 
cptrayes said:
You are far from alone, there seems to be quite a propensity among Cleveland Bays not to be able to tolerate too much grass and be happy barefoot.
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you seem to be doing everything right CB fan, it is just nightmare sometimes :D

CB's are seemingly not very tolerant, Spanish and those with spanish blood certainly can have problems. The Spanish and Arab I can understand as they come from climates with sparse vegetation onto our lush grazing. What breeds are there which are generally more tolerant of grass?
 
cptrayes said:
You are far from alone, there seems to be quite a propensity among Cleveland Bays not to be able to tolerate too much grass and be happy barefoot.
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Tis true, our CB girl is much more sensitive than my tough irish one!

We found minerals made a massive difference to her though it took a couple of months for the results to really show themselves, so hopefully they will help you too. We keep her on a v v grazed down paddock (I know stressed grass is worse but when you have to deal with a horse without a full switch it is a better choice!) and feed soaked hay, would this be an option for you? Previously we weren't able to do that do so she was muzzled, not ideal as she wasn't very happy with it on, but it did prevent her over indulging (we had the shires one which was v good and didn't rub or budge and did allow a reasnoble level of nibbling). We also don't turn out on frosty mornings, they go out at lunchtime and again with soaked hay.

I would let him be your guide as to what he can manage, each horse is so unique it would be impossible to guess. Fantastic that you caught it so quick, so listening to him would remain your best bet. I know how hard it is with all the know it alls suggesting shoes on (they all convinently forget that our girl is 100% more sound without the bloomin things!).

Fingers crossed for a good year for hay and a bad one for grass (A girl can wish!)!!
 
Unfortunately not allowed to feed hay in the field so thats a no go... Friend and I are going to see about fencing off and grazing down a section of the field for him... the frustration is that he needs the volume of fibre to keep his belly looking full.. (he looks very tucked up otherwise) ... he just doesn't need the sugar :(

Thanks for the reassurance... it's great (in a kinda bad way) to learn that I'm not alone :)

He's still fine this morning :)
 
One of my Clevies is laminitic.. His sister was very tolerant and my babies seem fine so far but are watched carefully.. I've known of a good few personally with feet issues..

Good luck everybody with yours :)
 
I really am glad I'm not alone... for such big galumpfing horses they aint half delicate!! lol!

I feel like turning him out on the local common - it would be perfect for him - nice rough grass, plenty to pick at but very little in it! Plus he'd get the added enjoyment of terrorising walkers and picnic-ers! lol!... god knows where he'd end up though!
 
Yeah.. I'd love rough or mountain grazing.. I threatened them with Dartmoor!

A lot of grazing is totally unsuitable for horses.. I'm surprised they survive sometimes.. There's a fair bit of Iberian blood in them, and a fair bit of Cleveland blood in Iberians.. And if you go back far enough the clevelands are mostly TB.. No wonder some can have such crappy feet for the rest of their bodies :/
 
CBFan said:
Unfortunately not allowed to feed hay in the field so thats a no go... Friend and I are going to see about fencing off and grazing down a section of the field for him... the frustration is that he needs the volume of fibre to keep his belly looking full.. (he looks very tucked up otherwise) ... he just doesn't need the sugar :(
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Goodness, that is a pain.
I would def see if you can get a section eaten down otherwise you're really having to work against it. If yours troughs away as soon as his feet touch the grass can you give him a bit of breakfast before he goes out so at least he doesn't hit the grass starving? Fast fibre is smashing for ours. I was adding straw chaff to it, but then found out it was high in starch so have canned that lol!

The silly thing is our girl grows fantastic feet, rock hard and beautiful right out of shoes, they are just rather sensitive too!

Are you sure yours doesn't have any thrush (another thing our CB girl gets more than out Irish one!), even the very smallest bit definatly causes her to be alot more sensitive. A milton bath really helps get the tiny niggly bits, no stinging either which is fab as if anything stung while we were doing her feet she would straight up refuse to lift them!

My most desired thing would be a patch of moorland with lots of yummy hedges, no evil green lush grass to be seen!!
 
ThePony said:
Goodness, that is a pain.
I would def see if you can get a section eaten down otherwise you're really having to work against it. If yours troughs away as soon as his feet touch the grass can you give him a bit of breakfast before he goes out so at least he doesn't hit the grass starving? Fast fibre is smashing for ours. I was adding straw chaff to it, but then found out it was high in starch so have canned that lol!

The silly thing is our girl grows fantastic feet, rock hard and beautiful right out of shoes, they are just rather sensitive too!

Are you sure yours doesn't have any thrush (another thing our CB girl gets more than out Irish one!), even the very smallest bit definatly causes her to be alot more sensitive. A milton bath really helps get the tiny niggly bits, no stinging either which is fab as if anything stung while we were doing her feet she would straight up refuse to lift them!

My most desired thing would be a patch of moorland with lots of yummy hedges, no evil green lush grass to be seen!!
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He always has a breakie of speedibeet, micronised linseed, bran and his minerals (as balanced by forrage plus) before he goes out and this morning I gave him some hay, just to take the edge off the hunger too but nevertheless, head went down and didn't come up until I bought him in I don't think!! He does like his grass! lol!

His feet are outwardly BEAUTIFUL - really tough horn that every farrier who sees them, refuses to shoe!! and he is even achieving more concavity in his sole (still room for improvement but getting there, and more heel than he had before! He hasn't had any thrush in a long while but I do give them the occasional squirt of milton to make sure ;)

Our common just over the road from the yard is a really nice bit of scrubland with rough grass, gorse and plenty of hedges - perfect CB ground :)

Funnily enough my friends Andalusian had lami so I am all to aware of the Iberian breeds being prone...

It's quite funny that according to breed society standards the CB is meant to have 'feet of the best quality and blue in colour. Feet that are shallow or narrow are undesirable.' Something's going wrong somewhere don'tcha think??!... but don't get me started on weaknesses within the breed :(
 
Obv don't know what the mineral profile of your grazing is like, but were were recommended bran for ours (along with grass nuts) for the minerals to go into - unfortunatly neither suited! Took us a while to work it out though as we had a few changes at the same time. Bran has high (relatively) starch which disagreed with our girl. Speedibeet, even well rinsed, gave rise to sensitivity too. We are now on fast fibre as a base, with a meagre sprinkling of spillers fibre cubes if she turns her nose up at it. A small scoop of timothy hay chaff aswell.
We didn't need to change mineral levels added when we changed base feed which made it easier to try and find something that suits.
lol, we have feet like that too - so beautiful and strong, but obv inside they aren't as strong as they look as poor girl is prone to sensitivity at the drop of a hat. Still a huge improvement on shoes though where she was just plain lame! You'll get there in time, our girl is now moving the best she ever has, we are imensley proud of her but goodness it has taken time and worry to get there!!
 
Thats very interesting The Pony... I will bare that in mind and get back to forage plus if I continue to have issues. I have only done one month on this diet so far so I am aware that it is early days...

On a positive note, I lunged him last night and he was like a different horse! So forward - rocket propelled in fact! So I am pretty sure he is feeling better and for now I have the grass intake just right... would just like him to have a little more time out so that I don't have to go down there 3 times a day... am working on that too though! So much to think about.

I'm quite reassured by the fact that your girl was no better in shoes... I have one person in particular who is nagging me to have shoes put on but something is really telling me not to!
 
CBFan said:
I'm quite reassured by the fact that your girl was no better in shoes... I have one person in particular who is nagging me to have shoes put on but something is really telling me not to!
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Stick with your guns, he's only young and you may well find he gets easier to manage as he gets a bit older :) I've always found it more 'hit and miss' when they are still growing and filling out.
 
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