For all the YO/YMs

Roasted Chestnuts

Roasted Chestnuts

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In regards to the tragic thread about the horse left to starve to death on grass livery, who would also not check on a grass livery horse if the owner wasnt able to?

How would that sit with you not to take a look at the horse, even just in the field? all mine can be approached and de-rugged/re-rugged at liberty in the field, just for your own peace of mind.

How would you feel if the above mentioned happened on youryard under your nose? Would you wash your hands of it and lcaim that you werent paid for services therefore werent doing them??

I do understand its businesses you are running and services have to be paid for, I worked on a livery yard for over ten years, managing it at one point, so i do understand the costs etc involved. I also fully understand the concepts of livery but for the good health of an innocent animal what arent people prepared to do now.

Just curious :)
 
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No animal, regardless of who owns it, would not be cared for in my hands.

Any issues with the owner have to be dealt with in isolation and not at the expense of the animal.
 
I'm not a YO but have a horse on livery at home and have to say that I look after him as if he were my own (feels like it, owner comes once a month and doesn't want updates). Couldn't imagine intentionally letting the horse starve even if I hadn't been paid for food, it's not the horses fault.

I had a massive fall out with old livery and even though it annoyed me to get up at 5:30 every morning and 8pm every night and have to deal with being squashed and abused by a horse in the end of the day it still needed basic care (feeding !!!). I paid out of my pocket for it half the time and I couldn't stand the thing. Was such a huge relief when it finally went (turned up one day and found the field empty after telling her to leave several times).

Totally unacceptable to knowingly let horses suffer. If we really have heard the whole story (and not just one side...) than I think the YO should have her reputation ruined and she shouldn't even own a livery yard.. She obviously can't be trusted.
 
I wouldn't leave a horse to suffer. I would act in the horses best interest, I would bill the neglectful livery for my time and if they refused to pay I'd serve notice
 
I honestly don't think I'd be a livery yard owner except for full liveries only when I would be fully responsible for their care. I've had a 'friend' here for a couple of months as an emergancy and yes I did spend far longer each day checking them and dealing with them than she did - all for nothing (not even the grass livery that she didn't pay me before disappearing!)
Her idea of checking was standing at the gate to my yard and looking at them (about 400m away) - yes you could check they were all there and alive/ stood up. But that's it.
I'd be a very poor DIY yard owner I think, or have no clients as I'd just give them notice whenever their care wasn't up to my standards !!!!!
 
I agree with ihatework. I would like to think that at our yard (though I'm not a YO) that one of us, any of us, would notice if a horse is poorly and losing weight, particularly in such a sorry state as the horse mentioned in the previous thread
 
No I couldnt stand by & see an animal suffer..keep mine at home but family member bit neglecful at times so I regularly bring in /feed take water out. Couldn't live with myself & hate the sound of him neighing in the field. Had it out wiv family member a no.of times & some improvements but at end of day I think its my choice to do stuff wiv him & I couldn't live with myself otherwise.
 
Black Beastie said:
In regards to the tragic thread about the horse left to starve to death on grass livery, who would also not check on a grass livery horse if the owner wasnt able to?

How would that sit with you not to take a look at the horse, even just in the field? all mine can be approached and de-rugged/re-rugged at liberty in the field, just for your own peace of mind.

How would you feel if the above mentioned happened on youryard under your nose? Would you wash your hands of it and lcaim that you werent paid for services therefore werent doing them??

I do understand its businesses you are running and services have to be paid for, I worked on a livery yard for over ten years, managing it at one point, so i do understand the costs etc involved. I also fully understand the concepts of livery but for the good health of an innocent animal what arent people prepared to do now.

Just curious :)
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Whilst HHOers tend to regard all YOs and YMs as something less than the **** on their Dubarry's, the tone and content of your OP seems to be suggesting that all of us would allow horses on our properties to suffer, which imo is not only a grave overgeneralisation but also offensive in the extreme.
 
It seems part of the territory that owners will not always be around to act, or are not experienced enough, or on site enough, to notice signs of illness or stress.
I bring everything in,every day, just so they can be observed and checked over, regardless. If I am unable to do this,I delegate.
If I need to take action, I do, and inform the owner afterwards - I certainly don't delay because I need to talk to the owner first.
 
Rowreach said:
Whilst HHOers tend to regard all YOs and YMs as something less than the **** on their Dubarry's, the tone and content of your OP seems to be suggesting that all of us would allow horses on our properties to suffer, which imo is not only a grave overgeneralisation but also offensive in the extreme.
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I cannot help how you view my post. As far as i am aware I am only asking questions, this has happened and a YO has allowed it to. I was a YM at one point, I was responsible for the welfare of 15 horses and ponies, so i certainly dont think they are the $h!t on my shoe, I tend to have a higher opinion of myself than that ;)

Im asking how those who are, especially in this climate with everythig costing a fortune, YO/YMs and how they feel about it. Maybe you should go and have a think about this before accusing folk of attacking. Im perfectly prepared to go off on one if required but then to leave that for when Im outraged :D
 
No, it would never happen on my yard. I wouldn't allow it. I only do full and part livery so take care of all the horses' needs. But even if I did grass livery or DIY I would be checking that all horses were adequately cared for and would have it as part of their contracts the minimum standard of care that I would expect.
 
I've not been a ym or yo but if I thought that a horse whether under my care or not was being neglected I would do something about it. Why this particular yo couldn't check the horse,take off rugs etc see that the horse is losing weight and act accordingly I don't know,either contact the owner or feed the horse!
 
rainer said:
I've not been a ym or yo but if I thought that a horse whether under my care or not was being neglected I would do something about it. Why this particular yo couldn't check the horse,take off rugs etc see that the horse is losing weight and act accordingly I don't know,either contact the owner or feed the horse!
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Whilst I am the softest touch in the world when it comes to animals, I also have a huge amount of sympathy with yard owners that get rail roaded into doing things they have no wish to do. In my opinion the yo in this case should have said full stop NO to a horse being on grass livery without contact from a "keeper" - I think it is unfair to expect a yard for for probably less than £12 a week provide grass, 2 off daily checks etc - and if you did have you ever tried to run a yard doing this.

I have little sympathy with both parties to be honest, my sympathy lies with the poor horse,

I am bust up, I have been since October - I have 3 horses at my local yard - I get daily updates from a friend, husband also goes twice a week to see them and I get to the yard when I can.

The 4th is miles away - i get to see him once a month - infact were off now to pay his bills, BUT i get an text update twice a week if everything is ok, immediate phone call if any concern, and get at least a photo or a video clip of him every other week.

I am just dissapointed that a horse lost its life because no one cared enough to make sure she was okay - and that is what sits ill with me.
 
We used to run grass and had one DIY owner look at the horse once in over six months.
When she did come up we were glad when she left and could change him out of the heavyweight she'd popped on in a sunny autumn day the poor fluffy native lad!

All horses were checked (visual) twice daily by us and once by girl over lunch. As we did most of their rugs these were checked each end of the day (under not just looked at) and often a Couple of tines in day if sun popped out.
Ones doing their own rugs weren't checked under by us but owners would be up both ends of the day to do so.

Winter forage we did and meant a visual check was easy, quick to see if one wasn't quite right following trailer etc.
Called vet before owner on a couple of occasions and owner to confirm their opinion on whether straight out or next morning on other occasions.

If someone was on diy and up daily I wouldn't check under rugs or more than a quick visual but if owner was 500miles away I'd be keeping a closer eye!
 
I think I would have checked them every couple of weeks or got a friend to check them on a regular basis especially in winter with the snow/rain/mud etc. Although if it was agreed that the yo would check them and she let the horse get that bad I think she let the horse down,the owners down and she let herself down too. I mean if they were out on grass livery with rugs+hay fine but surely u could bring them in once a week and do a check even if u aren't getting paid for it to put your own mind at rest. I worry constantly about our pony and he is fine :)
 
So I take it that everyone that is saying a yo should JUST DO it, will often pop into work to do something there not being paid to do on a Sat and a Sunday too ?

The whole horse world amazes me - why do we constantly expect others to provide stuff for our useage, yo and ym's to provide hay, stabling etc at a pittance and then to provide full care for an animal that they are not being paid to do?

This whole post is wrong on so many levels, yes the YO needs a kick up the butt to have allowed it to happen, but so does the owner - they are both as bad as each other, and being 500 miles away is no excuse.

In my previous life i spent months out of the country, i never came back to an ill, thin, fat horse - why because I made sure I paid well enough for the animal to be looked after, not just made some hazy arrangement and hoped that a fine animal would scrape through the winter on a wing and a prayer.

And rugs - don't start me on rugs - I loathe people that "straighten rugs", this quick pull it so it look right mentality - would you like an uncomfortable coat being snatched down on your back, with the labels rubbing into you or cutting into the back of your neck or armpits - no cause you wouldnt so take the rug off properly, and let the poor animals get some air on their backs and check to see it the "straigtening" is causing a rub or a chaffing.
 
An interesting thead with lots of views as usual.

One of the reasons I have gone down the route of having young rescued ponies in my field is that I did not t hink I could cope with letting the stables and field to someone who then did not care for their horses in the way I have always done! Polo'smum you have confirmed this for me!

There are plenty of private owners who think a check is a glance in the field, yet we know that you can only tell if something is not right by catching up your horse/pony and handling and checking them properly. For me t his is a pleasure and hilite of the day, a cuddle with 2 hairy beasts, but I know they are sound, eating, drinking and have a covering over their ribs.
 
Gingerwitch - I think YO's are stuck in an incredible difficult position (hence why I wouldn't be one) I wouldn't work if I wasn't being paid - but my papers on my desk don't mind if they get ignored!!

I honestly don't know what they should do if owners don't behave like they should. They can't force people to pay them for the work that's needed, they can't really ignore the poor ponies and they can't take them round to the house of the owner and turn them out in the front garden.

I suspect the real answer would be much more common use of the abandonment notice so YO's can quickly assume ownership and sell horses on their land that aren't being cared for.
 
I'm at a small private yard and we are looking for another grass livery.

YM is very clear that the horse should be checked daily or owner be prepared to pay for this to be done and you'd be surprised how many people don't want to pay or check themselves.

I have my retired one on grass livery and pay extra for him to be checked twice daily, rugs changed if the weather does, hay put out when needed and fed once a day.
 
Obviously not in this tragic case, but there are some owners who will take advantage - if you will do it they will let you. However, for horses on my property I try to safeguard their welfare at the outset, so that the rent includes winter fodder, hoof trims and worm plan - in other words the basics. I wouldn't let a horse wander round with a rug which is causing problems but I would remove the rug and ensure the horse had access to plenty of grass or forage.
I have often wondered whether in law the land owner has some sort of responsibility under the animal welfare Act, even if it is only to call in a welfare society. Does anyone know?
 
JillA said:
Obviously not in this tragic case, but there are some owners who will take advantage - if you will do it they will let you. However, for horses on my property I try to safeguard their welfare at the outset, so that the rent includes winter fodder, hoof trims and worm plan - in other words the basics. I wouldn't let a horse wander round with a rug which is causing problems but I would remove the rug and ensure the horse had access to plenty of grass or forage.
I have often wondered whether in law the land owner has some sort of responsibility under the animal welfare Act, even if it is only to call in a welfare society. Does anyone know?
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Yes, the land owner is also legally responsible for the animals on his land, I've copied this link that I posted on the other thread:-

Q. I own a yard where we have horses for backing, breaking and training. A new client sent us her horse on full training livery and signed our standard agreement, but she has recently become elusive over payment and isn’t returning calls or visiting. We’re becoming concerned that the horse has been “abandoned”, so how do we stand legally?

A. Sadly, people do “abandon” their horses with yards when they face financial trouble and the situation you describe is becoming more and more common; I get many calls from yard owners who have horses in their care but have not been paid for weeks, or in some cases, months. My advice is to check what your agreement says about non-payment, particularly whether it contains an express right to sell the horse in settlement of outstanding bills. If it doesn’t there’s no general legal right to sell another person’s horse, although there is a statutory obligation to look after its welfare and, in consequence, incur costs.

This obligation arises under the Animal Welfare Act 2006, which, briefly, makes it a criminal offence to allow a horse for which you’re responsible to suffer. You don’t need to be the animal’s owner to be guilty of an offence. Put simply, even if your client hasn’t paid you have to care for the horse. Subject to this, you should write to your client making it clear that you won’t be performing the training part of the agreement because of her failure to pay. Refer to your standard agreement, which ought to make payment of bills a condition of training. You should also make it clear that while you’ll continue to care for the horse (feed, water, exercise, etc) she’ll be billed for all costs incurred. In all cases, you need to keep detailed records of costs. Try to visit the client’s last known address and / or call them at home or work to find out what’s going on. You need to avoid a confrontation, as there may be a legitimate reason for lack of contact or visits. You should find out the position before taking any formal legal steps that could include court proceedings, returning the horse to the client (this saves the cost of caring for it) or reaching a new agreement. Presently, you have no concrete evidence that the owner has abandoned her horse and this is why you should find out why she’s proving elusive. Ultimately, you could sue her for all unpaid bills and costs you incur but this takes time and money.

Questions answered by Martineau solicitors www.martineau-uk.com If you have a legal question you would like answered, e-mail it to editor@horsedeals.co.uk
 
Black Beastie said:
I am NOT suggesting that it is done for free, certainly payment would be expected BUT without the payment would people just leave it is my question :)
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I didn't say you were, I was just pointing out that alot of people don't actually want to pay and should ym/yo be expected to pick up the slack for all these people? The majority get away with it, there is enough grass, water and the horse doesn't injure itself but it sounds like where in this case (I don't know the details) they didn't.


I think that the ym should be clear at the outset and have a contract that says you check your horse regularly or pay for it. If the owner isn't prepared to do either then tell them to find somewhere else.

I know of a case on a diy yard (no services) where there was a horse that had the other liveries not been topping up water and giving the horse their leftover hay it would have been a cruelty case, even with this it was very thin. Who would have been responsible in this case where the yard was very clear that it was completely diy and there were no services beyond maintaining basics like buildings and fences.
 
touchstone said:
Yes, the land owner is also legally responsible for the animals on his land, I've copied this link that I posted on the other thread:-

Q. I own a yard where we have horses for backing, breaking and training. A new client sent us her horse on full training livery and signed our standard agreement, but she has recently become elusive over payment and isn’t returning calls or visiting. We’re becoming concerned that the horse has been “abandoned”, so how do we stand legally?


This obligation arises under the Animal Welfare Act 2006, which, briefly, makes it a criminal offence to allow a horse for which you’re responsible to suffer. [/email]
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But in this case the horse has been taken on on full livery and the yard have taken on full responsibility for the horse and have a contract to say they will provide this but the owner hasn't paid.

My query would be if you just rent use of facilities ( a field and/or stable) with no care offered or available does that make the landowner responsible?
 
I've said before on the other thread that I took in a stray pony which was galloping along the footpath - once it was on my grazing I was legally liable for its care, even though I didn't own or want it! Luckily no vet call outs were necessary, but I did have to remove a shoe that was twisted and feed/water the pony. I had it for a few weeks before the owner came forward.

The animal act is to prevent suffering, so if an owner fails to care for the horse it is the duty of the landowner to see to the horse's basic welfare needs and either contact welfare organisations or deliver the horse to the owner, so relinquishing their responsibility.

Obviously the responsibility for welfare on full livery is more, so the horse may still need to be exercised for example, but even renting grassland can leave a landowner liable to having to care for basic needs, a good reason for proper written contracts and an 'in case' contingency plan to be drawn up by anyone renting out land or stables in case they are left with abandoned animals.
 
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No problems JillA, :)

Unfortunately I discovered it the hard way and I'm now very wary about dealing with strays (there are some ponies nearby that regularly escape from their field.)
Once you've got them on your land, or are holding the end of the leadrope, you are stuck with the problem, and the bills if no owner is prepared to take care of it.
 
criso said:
But in this case the horse has been taken on on full livery and the yard have taken on full responsibility for the horse and have a contract to say they will provide this but the owner hasn't paid.

My query would be if you just rent use of facilities ( a field and/or stable) with no care offered or available does that make the landowner responsible?
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I thought the horse was on grass livery -which is why the problem occured?? not saying that its acceptable, but I thought it was a fine horse and owner was keeping it on grass livery... which costs less than 2 packs of fags
 
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Grass livery to me is when a YO should be checking. Renting a field would be different however in both cases the land owner has a egal responsibility to any animals on their land.

If the YO didn't want the responsibility of the horses when the owner was miles away (we've provided this for liveries previously when moving foc) then they give notice. They don't let an animal die on site... That's a reputation I wouldn't like to have.
 
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