For all you Gypsy haters...

Harper_Gal said:
Stencilface - agreed.

Pastie - I missed your question - no, I haven't been to Appleby. But I also haven't been to the National (and I refuse to out of principle). So I'm not entirely sure how that is relevant.

Farrierlove - I thought one bucket a day would have caused colic?
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Why on earth would it cause colic? It might occasionally but it's not on the list of "things that cause colic" it's just an irresponsible thing to do. :)
 
DragonSlayer said:
One was asking for clarification, or is that frowned upon here?

I get very little time for forums these days as my profile will show to when I joined....so one has to guess alot of the time. So what's 'OP'....please kindly tell me, or is it something that people know who spend much of their time on the computer?

What's it got to do with the debate? Alot actually, when you wish to know to whom 'she' is......
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OP is Original Poster. Apologies if you didn't know that, I thought you were just being snarky.
 
4faults said:
Yes DragonSlayer its my post that is going to inflame the situation. I think you missed the point of the post and if you didn't want to 'inflame' the situation you could have just not replied
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And your post was wrong. It was the title, not the content of the post, that was the problem.

Unless you work part time as admin??

So I did learn, I reposted with a similar title, and I jiggled some of the content to ensure it was more obvious as a debate than a rant.

The racism card was withdrawn last. I do believe it is racist to be blinkered to acceptable cruelty and focus on unacceptable cruelty based on the race, nationality or lifestyle of the person commiting the cruelty. However, the sentence was poorly worded and implied people who didn't want them both banned were racist. Which is not what was intended.
 
Farrierlover said:
Why on earth would it cause colic? It might occasionally but it's not on the list of "things that cause colic" it's just an irresponsible thing to do. :)
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Oh. My childhood fear of causing colic by dehydrating horses is unfounded :(

I had always believed that a long drink of cold water to dehydrated animals was dangerous and so drinking of cold water should be limited to horses after exercise or long periods without water.
 
tangoharvey said:
my last new forest pony used to love apple bobbing....he would put his head right in the waterand turn the bucket into a jacuzzi - noone ever made him but her loved it! LOL
Lets face it theres cruelty in all areas, my personal pet hate is spoilt children who jab thier ponies in the mouth when the little darlings havnt got them the rosette mummy promised they'd have! I enjoy reading these debates but do wish they wouldnt get so personal....!
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There are forms of cruelty where ever you look. I have met travellers who take good care of their horses and ones who don't.
Personally all the race yards I have been on treat their horses like royalty but yes they may have a shorter lifespan.

I agree with you TangoHarvey I can't stand those children who jab their ponies in their sensitive mouths when they don't win a rosette or people who smack there horses silly because it won't go near something it doesn't like the look of I.e a scary jump.
 
HG thank you for acknowledging my question, but you may never have been to the GN, but you dont need to. It is on television for everybody to see. Appleby is not, so to have such a strong opinion, you really have had to have been.
 
4faults - I've always believed that horses respond much better to gentle co-ercement than aggression.


Which makes me wonder then, would Appleby be the same fair if the swimming side was shown to be more gentle, with the handlers co-ercing rather than forcing animals into the water?

I'm also then curious as to how many on here would admit to "gently co-ercing" their steeds through puddles or into water jumps.

I'll admit I was jumping up and down in a puddle with my foal looking at me like I was bonkers yesterday. Was trying to show if I could survive getting wet, so could she. She worked out that I could stand in the puddle all day if I wanted to, she was going in for tea... Perhaps gentle co-ercement isn't always the answer?
 
HG. Just a few observations:
You say you wish to promote a debate. Having read both of your original posts and some of your counter-posts, I am not entirely sure what it is you wish to debate.

Is it a debate on racism? Or hypocrisy? Or travellers’ ways with horses vs. the racing industry? Or whether an animal is or can be forced to do something against its will?

All are worthy subjects for debate, but if you really want people to join in, listen to and consider your views, may I suggest the following?

1) You don’t title the thread in such a hostile way - it won’t make people take you seriously if you insult them to start with nor will beginning in such an aggressive manner
2) If you put forward a reasoned argument for your side of the debate without then resorting to words like ‘racism’, which is not a word to be used lightly and is not a term applicable in this case, you will again get a better response
3) If you use a word like ‘forced’ be sure you don’t mean ‘untrained’ - the two are not interchangeable
4) Don’t try to patronize others about their ability to use long words or otherwise, when what you are actually meaning to do is insult them for questioning their understanding of your idea of a debate. Sarcasm doesn’t work well either.

My understanding of a good debate is when all sides put forward their points of view in a rational, informed and reasonable manner.
If you are successful, then others will listen to what you have said, consider it and possibly alter their own views.
Then, when you wish to start another debate, others are much more likely to read your views with respect and an open mind. But you have to be prepared to do the same for them.
 
DragonSlayer said:
HAHAHA! No problem!

Thanks for letting me know!

I truly don't get on the comp much for pleasure these days and it will be ages before I come back again....I will remember what OP means for the future!
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I apologise I thought the same as well, text never comes across how you mean it. Please don't let it put you off
 
pastie2 said:
HG thank you for acknowledging my question, but you may never have been to the GN, but you dont need to. It is on television for everybody to see. Appleby is not, so to have such a strong opinion, you really have had to have been.
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If we change the word "television" to "media" and they both probably suffer the same. Both meets are described by the people describing them as how people wish to see them.

Watch racing on the TV, and they will kindly edit out the injured and dying horses and not mention them as anything other than "Fallers". The media I have been looking at of Appleby are the select clips they want us to see, same as racing.

I live with someone who has done Appleby every year for years though and I honestly don't know where you and her seem to part company, but her stories are of a vastly different experience to those described on the forum.
 
Harper_Gal said:
I'm not silly and I'm not little, ta very much! But well observed on my gender!

You were. Firstly using the name Bundle. Which is that of a banned user. Think you know me, use my name. Don't use a name no one else does. Makes you look a tad... silly... Eh? But you were Bundle, I apologise if the use of your old name made my post sound personal, however, it most certainly did not make me look silly - what is wrong with calling you Bundle?

And you were being personal, drawing on my personal experience as the only thing I had to debate from. I'm not that closested and ignorant that I am incapble of research!No amount of research can make up for personal experience, it can help without doubt but personal experience gives you a much better platform to debate from

I have worked on a racing yard. I exercised point to pointers one winter. I would spend a few hours in the morning trotting up and down country lanes, it was absolutely jolly good fun! OK so this does give more credence to your argument, I was at a loss why you were so loathe to answer Rosie but your next paragraph explains it

But Rosie said she didn't want to know, so I answered her honestly. Yes, I'm being a bit petty on that one, but Rosie isn't exactly pleasant inside the hunting forum.
At least you admit you were being petty debate is open to all is it not?



And the post was not pulled because of my use of the word racist. I changed that at my own discretion. According to the Moderator, the use of the word in the title was the only breach.Urmmm I do not believe I questioned that tbh
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Anyway back to the point, the horses at Appleby are most certainly not trained to swim, the fact that they are beaten into the water, coupled with the fact that a young colt actually drowned last year would indicate otherwise, I don't believe I have ever seen a racehorse beaten into the starting gate. at least not in recent years.

There ARE good and bad in every equestrian sport but I believe that the dislike for Appleby goes deeper than the perceived abuse of horses, it is also the fact that law abiding citizens suffer whilst the travellers are en route to and whilst they are attending Appleby. As I said before, if you had been a victim you would not be so quick to defend the travellers (I do not think they actually deserve the name gypsy) who perpetrate the thefts and vandalism. Appleby may once have been a good tradition, but the majority (not ALL) of the people attending these days have no respect for either their horses, other people or indeed the law.
 
Harper_Gal said:
4faults - I've always believed that horses respond much better to gentle co-ercement than aggression.


Which makes me wonder then, would Appleby be the same fair if the swimming side was shown to be more gentle, with the handlers co-ercing rather than forcing animals into the water?

I'm also then curious as to how many on here would admit to "gently co-ercing" their steeds through puddles or into water jumps.

I'll admit I was jumping up and down in a puddle with my foal looking at me like I was bonkers yesterday. Was trying to show if I could survive getting wet, so could she. She worked out that I could stand in the puddle all day if I wanted to, she was going in for tea... Perhaps gentle co-ercement isn't always the answer?
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Haha this genuinely made me laugh as I have a vivid memory of doing it with my old horse, who looked at me like I was insane and calmly took a drink and walked off!
 
Harper_Gal said:
If we change the word "television" to "media" and they both probably suffer the same. Both meets are described by the people describing them as how people wish to see them.

Watch racing on the TV, and they will kindly edit out the injured and dying horses and not mention them as anything other than "Fallers". The media I have been looking at of Appleby are the select clips they want us to see, same as racing.

I live with someone who has done Appleby every year for years though and I honestly don't know where you and her seem to part company, but her stories are of a vastly different experience to those described on the forum.
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I dont DO Appleby, I happen to live there. Being a local I feel that I can easily part company.
 
SirenaXVI said:
Anyway back to the point, the horses at Appleby are most certainly not trained to swim, the fact that they are beaten into the water, coupled with the fact that a young colt actually drowned last year would indicate otherwise, I don't believe I have ever seen a racehorse beaten into the starting gate. at least not in recent years.

There ARE good and bad in every equestrian sport but I believe that the dislike for Appleby goes deeper than the perceived abuse of horses, it is also the fact that law abiding citizens suffer whilst the travellers are en route to and whilst they are attending Appleby. As I said before, if you had been a victim you would not be so quick to defend the travellers (I do not think they actually deserve the name gypsy) who perpetrate the thefts and vandalism. Appleby may once have been a good tradition, but the majority (not ALL) of the people attending these days have no respect for either their horses, other people or indeed the law.
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That last bit wasn't aimed at you, hence why you were confused. Sorry.

I do have bad experiences with travellers, mind. They travelled through our village, camped on the common and wrecked it, burnt down the rugby club, moved to the village next door and took over the children's playground leaving it unuseable until the council sorted it out. It was a wee bit scary with them around.

Were they headed for Appleby? Certainly sounds like a lot of Appleby experiences, does it not? No, they were going to Epsom Derby.

So by your own logic there should be a percieved dislike of horse racing based on the treatment of our village by Epsom Derby supporting travellers.

At is was, down my way the words "Epsom Derby" had a very similar affect on people as "Appleby Horse Fair". But were I to post "Urrrgh, Epsom Derby, gypsies moving through, they've burned down the rugby club and left the playground and common in a right state" iI would probably get lynched in a similar fashion as I have today because the Derby is different.

Which is perhaps the roundabout point to this thread. Racing and Appleby may not seem comparable, but they both have dark sides and they both have not so dark sides. Some people view both as cruelty, some view neither as cruelty. But to put one down because of the association with theft, violence and intimadation is hipocritical.
 
It is understandable that this is a matter up for debate, but given the original source (OP) who started this thread it is hard to even want to add an opinion or veiwpoint.

My first impression of the OP (if you look back at some of their other threads/posts) is someone who is very rude, blunt and sometimes very obnoxious. To add to this they also twist many things you may say.

When I gave 'my opinion' and wrote about my very personal and real experience on a different thread, of the effects on my family's health after having had our horse stolen years ago, her remarks were not only incendiary but were extremely hurtful and ill-placed. HG said along the lines that she couldn't be bothered to read any more as I was wallowing in self pity (!) and said something like if a horse/pony were stolen it would just be bought and get to a good home (those were just some of her remarks!). As if the owner then shouldn't be worried!!! Hmmm - I wonder why on earth Horsewatch was set up in that case.

HG believes she has an answer for everything. One 'life experience' she cannot comment on correctly however, because she has not been through the terrible ordeal, is horsetheft.

Being a polite type, I apologise to others in advance that my reply is 'off topic' for this thread, but it is relevant!
 
Harper_Gal said:
Pastie - she normally would not have to travel to Appleby, so is not far off local either!

Debbie - perhaps you could expand on your post to explain how, despite not having any evidence and never having reclaimed your horse, you post was all about how gypsies were to blame?
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Exactly where have I even insinuated that gypsies were to blame? You are something else. But you have proved my point how you twist everything - well done!!!

For the record, we of course do not know who took our horse (if we did perhaps we would have been lucky enough to find him and restore our lives back to normal) but there were a few types of people who could have taken him (and the three other big TB horses stolen with him), but never once did we feel it was people from the travelling community.

Please show where I have said it was gypsies.
 
Harper_Gal said:
That last bit wasn't aimed at you, hence why you were confused. Sorry.

I do have bad experiences with travellers, mind. They travelled through our village, camped on the common and wrecked it, burnt down the rugby club, moved to the village next door and took over the children's playground leaving it unuseable until the council sorted it out. It was a wee bit scary with them around.

Were they headed for Appleby? Certainly sounds like a lot of Appleby experiences, does it not? No, they were going to Epsom Derby.

So by your own logic there should be a percieved dislike of horse racing based on the treatment of our village by Epsom Derby supporting travellers.

At is was, down my way the words "Epsom Derby" had a very similar affect on people as "Appleby Horse Fair". But were I to post "Urrrgh, Epsom Derby, gypsies moving through, they've burned down the rugby club and left the playground and common in a right state" iI would probably get lynched in a similar fashion as I have today because the Derby is different.

Which is perhaps the roundabout point to this thread. Racing and Appleby may not seem comparable, but they both have dark sides and they both have not so dark sides. Some people view both as cruelty, some view neither as cruelty. But to put one down because of the association with theft, violence and intimadation is hipocritical.
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No I don't think that there WOULD be a dislike of horse racing in general because of how travellers en route to Epsom behaved. Firstly the management of Epsom Racetrack can not be held responsible for the acts of a minority of their attendees. It could be argued that the management of Appleby could not be held responsible either, but, unlike Epsom it is the majority of their attendees who behave badly en route. Not being hypocritical just stating fact.
 
Sirena - thank you for your kind words. I am sorry to hear about your 3 dogs too. The not knowing is the worst - it's endless.
 
DebbieCG said:
Exactly where have I even insinuated that gypsies were to blame? You are something else. But you have proved my point how you twist everything - well done!!!

For the record, we of course do not know who took our horse (if we did perhaps we would have been lucky enough to find him and restore our lives back to normal) but there were a few types of people who could have taken him (and the three other big TB horses stolen with him), but never once did we feel it was people from the travelling community.

Please show where I have said it was gypsies.
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Now you are being an excellent manipulator. I wouldn't have posted in the stolen forum section unless it was about gypsies or wind plaits, which are apparently caused by gypsies.

So unless you directly blamed gypsies or posted in a thread about them, which would implicate your post as being aimed at gypsies, then I wasn't the person replying to you.

Pastie - it gives no incite at all. I just happen to not see a point in making yourself sick over missing animals and I happen to not see a point in sugar coating my point. I don't think you can read me as being rude for being honest (tactless, I'll admit to, it's a forte!)

Sirena - From where we sat it felt like a darn site more than a small minority camping out for the races.
However, to your point that I cannot link the travellers behaviour with the organisers - surely that is hippocritical? If travellers mess up an event organised by settled folk, it's no one's fault, but if they mess up one of their own events, it's awful.

And for personal experience - I have never had an animal stolen, but I've had my car broken into more than once. I get the odd nightmare where I've left something valuable in the car, but I'd never get sick.
I did, however, suffer well for the affects of losing a horse to colic. Looking back I wish someone had told me to man up, because it was costly.
Grief is natural. Wallowing in it to the point you become ill and then just blaming everyone else but yourself for that illness isn't healthy for anyone.
 
Well just to put my point of view to the debate....

I am often stunned and horrified at the blatent racism directed towards travellers.

If you had been attacked by a young black man (quite common in parts of London for example) and based on that experience and media reports you called the entire black community derogatory names, then you would be considered racist. However it is still socially acceptable and common to call travellers by such names.

Yes they stick together as a community but so do many other groups. There are good and bad in all of us. They choose a different way of life to others - so what?!

There is cruelty in all sectors of society (dare I mention hunting, or the religious ways of killing meat, or even intensive farming) but we are tolerant of some people and then hypocritically not others.


Live and let live.
 
Harper_Gal said:
Now you are being an excellent manipulator. I wouldn't have posted in the stolen forum section unless it was about gypsies or wind plaits, which are apparently caused by gypsies.

So unless you directly blamed gypsies or posted in a thread about them, which would implicate your post as being aimed at gypsies, then I wasn't the person replying to you.

Pastie - it gives no incite at all. I just happen to not see a point in making yourself sick over missing animals and I happen to not see a point in sugar coating my point. I don't think you can read me as being rude for being honest (tactless, I'll admit to, it's a forte!)

Sirena - From where we sat it felt like a darn site more than a small minority camping out for the races.
However, to your point that I cannot link the travellers behaviour with the organisers - surely that is hippocritical? If travellers mess up an event organised by settled folk, it's no one's fault, but if they mess up one of their own events, it's awful.

And for personal experience - I have never had an animal stolen, but I've had my car broken into more than once. I get the odd nightmare where I've left something valuable in the car, but I'd never get sick.
I did, however, suffer well for the affects of losing a horse to colic. Looking back I wish someone had told me to man up, because it was costly.
Grief is natural. Wallowing in it to the point you become ill and then just blaming everyone else but yourself for that illness isn't healthy for anyone.
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Why are you being deliberatly contentious? You compare a car being stolen to that of a much loved pet illustrates your your lack of empathy & your low opinion of the importance of pets.
 
oh HG I am glad that you can understand the complete devastation of losing something to theft, that is someting else that you have first hand experience of. Did you grieve for the piece of metal that was pinched? Poor you I thought that you had no heart. How right I was!
 
"Now you are being an excellent manipulator. I wouldn't have posted in the stolen forum section unless it was about gypsies or wind plaits, which are apparently caused by gypsies.

So unless you directly blamed gypsies or posted in a thread about them, which would implicate your post as being aimed at gypsies, then I wasn't the person replying to you."


How on earth do derive your 'assumptions'? Your manipulation is clear for everyone to see in your previous posts and threads.

It was a wind plait/tangle thread that I first came across your rudeness and ill formed judgement. But I was trying to help the person who had concerns at the time (saying it was probably nothing to worry about). However, your replies were provocation.

You have still not answered my simple question - where have I implied it was gypsies who took my horse? You have once again given a twisted answer as quoted above and have also avoided answering in any type of reasonable way.
 
i don't think its forcing horses into the water that most tarnish gypsies with its the silky racing up motorways, fights because not enough pubs are open, stolen horses stolen along way or leaving crime rates that go up and general aggressiveness of some of them.

Media will always peg everyone with same brush regardless and you can look at it two ways i know a few gypsies who are law abiding and love there horses who disagree with a number of other gypsy who treat there horses like rubbish doesn't mean there all bad however when put together they all play up for the crowd a bit like football hooligans!
 
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