For people whose youngsters don't like having feet picked up

[Leitrim]

My yearling doesn't like having her front feet picked up but is great with the back feet.
As it turned out she had an abscess developing in one of the fronts which explained why she didn't like that one being touched or why she didn't like the good one being picked up (because she then had to put a lot of weight on the painful one).
But following treatment for the abscess she remained very wary about having her front feet picked up and there was no way I could, on my own, force her to hold either of them up without creating the danger of her stumbling onto a knee, me spraining a wrist or - worse still in my opinion - creating a stressed situation which would stick in her mind forever whenever her front feet need to be handled.
I found this video on YouTube and was so impressed by the slow, calm, patient and kind way in which the trainer dealt with the rescue yearling she was handling that I hoped it might be inspiring and reassuring for other new owners too.
In particular I like the way she explains what small signals are there to be recognised in order to understand the yearling's reaction at many stages. I hope you like it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRoJy-RFdKY&list=UUy72xZ9u1o1HtVXwiHFfutg

 

[Fides]

Following so I can watch later

 

[Pearlsasinger]

We have a youngster who unfortunately had an injured front foot and became very wary of picking her feet up. Clicker training is helping her to work through this.

 

[H0RS3]

These things simply take time, eventually she'll come to realise that no one is going to hurt her!

Best of luck

 

[Fides]

Just seen the video - so she has taught him with treats that when you go to pick up the leg, he is to paw... One of the key things with training is only to reward the desired behaviour - why would you reward pawing?

I break it up into chunks - first I get the horse used to having their legs touched, at the top and then working down. I only touch the front of the leg and reward when the leg isnt lifted. By doing this you have a calming tool when you move on to touching the hoof. When I touch the good initially I want the horse to stay stood and not lift it. On particularly fearful horses (I had a mare that would kick and aim for your head) I touch using my foot - this seems much more tolerated than squatting down and using the hand. Once the horse is used to the front of the leg being touched I move to the back, if the try and lift the leg I move my hand to the front to encourage it to be put down. Only when the horse is calmly having his leg touched behind to I move my hand to the heel and touch the feathers/heel bulb. At this point I will ask for a lift, very minimal initially, but eventually an actual raising of the leg. At no point do I ever let go of the leg, I always lower the leg to the ground rather than 'dropping' it. If the horse is uncomfortable I will go with the movement and lower to the ground. If at any point the horse is uncomfortable I go back a step.

The reason I do it this way is there is nothing worse than a horse that snatches its foot up as soon as you touch it. I teach my horses to keep their foot on the ground unless asked. It makes brushing the legs, and putting bandages and boots on much easier.

 

[Dry Rot]

Haven't looked at the video yet as I need to go out. Just posting that we use a super market carrier bag on the end of a log light stick and generally desensitise over a few weeks. We never force the issue, just bring the bag closer and touching if they will tolerate it, finally rubbing all over. If necessary, they'll be given a bowl of soaked sugar beet or intermittent slices of carrots. Two 2yo's behaved pretty nearly impeccably with the farrier for their first trim earlier. They can kick the plastic bag all they want but the action is totally unproductive (they are basically kicking thin air!) and they eventually give up. "Unrewarded behaviour will be abandoned, rewarded behaviour will be repeated". One very nervous yearling (who ran into a post and blamed us) is a transformed character.

 

[Leitrim]

I am sorry if I gave the impression that I was endorsing the clicker / treat technique. That wasn't my intention and I wouldn't be qualified to comment on it either as I've not learnt the technique.
Personally, I didn't use any treats while accustoming the yearling to picking up her feet - for no better reason than that I wanted her attention / concentration for a few minutes. She loves food so much that she would have been focussed on getting into my pockets rather than on standing square and balancing herself. Each time she 'did it right' I made a grand fuss of her. When she didn't I stood back and gave her a few seconds to relax again. When each session was over she got some carrot sticks because she had tried so willingly.
I put the link to the video on the forum because I thought that other people (like me) were likely to feel that they were failures because they were having difficulty with the 'pick it up and hang on until it submits' approach that you frequently hear. The video demonstrated a steady, non-judgemental and focussed way of doing it: OK, resign yourself to spending 5 or 10 minutes on this each day, stay calm and quiet, value every tiny bit of progress and make the horse feel good about its effort and you WILL achieve it eventually.
But the good thing about me having suggested something with the flaw that Fides points out is that both she and Dry Rot have given us additional strategies to employ, so thank you to both of you.

 

[Fides]

But regardless of the use of treats, in that video the horse does not learn any desirable behaviour. All that happens is an undesirable behaviour is reinforced. Whoever took the video seriously needs to look at what they are trying to achieve and what the result is in this video. If I sent my horse to that 'trainer' if be pretty angry about the horse being taught to wave its hoof around when you go to pick it up.

As I said in my earlier post, it is much less stressful to the horse to teach them to leave their foot down first, then get them used to it being handled, before trying to pick it up. The video shows that the horse is being rushed before it is ready and doesn't understand what is being asked of it. It is clearly agitated - rewarding a horse when agitated is not a good thing, you are reinforcing that there is something to be worried about. The process needs to be broken down into smaller steps - the first one being the horse actually being comfortable with having his legs handled.

There are plenty of excellent examples of good clicker training, that just isn't one of them

Eta - thankyou for the thankyou by the way

Eta2 - I'm working with Feral Foal at the mo. I might see if I can video his accepting his hoof being picked up

 

[Leitrim]

Eta2 - I'm working with Feral Foal at the mo. I might see if I can video his accepting his hoof being picked up

I'd like to see it very much. many thanks.

 

[Fides]

I'd like to see it very much. many thanks.

He's actually really bad with his legs/feet. He's a lovely calm boy but has issues due to how he was caught. Basically all the calm ponies were caught by grabbing their ears and wrestling them into a headcollar. The ones that put up a fight had lunge lines thrown around their legs and their legs pulled out from under them - needless to say he now has ear issues and leg issues.

I have got him to the point where he is fine with his ears being handled, and now will let you stroke him all over (the first time I stroked him bum he double barrelled me, same the first time I tried to move my hand near his belly). He now will be caught and headcollared in the field and also leads like a gem. His legs are the last thing to work on - and I have a feeling are going to be the one that causes the biggest issue.

He's a good boy though and I'm sure we will get there with a lot of patience. I do not have the option of treat rewards for good behaviour as he doesn't know what treats (or hard feed) are. He works for wither scratches bless him

 

[Dry Rot]

OK, I watched the video. The first thing that occurred to me was that presentation of the reward did not coincide exactly with the required action, i.e. lifting the foot. That occurred after the foot was released. Also, the reward was presented at approximate waist height, so I was beginning to wonder if the horse had not inadvertently been taught to back up in anticipation of getting the reward? The logic behind the training seemed a bit muddled and the reasoning was way off. Do horses really get into these long chains of reasoning? As Fides has pointed out, the horse seemed in fact to being trained simply by repetition and the girl could have omitted giving a food reward with the similar success (but possibly without the horse going into reverse each time).

We tried reward based training for lifting feet here with one person holding the lead rope and a second lifting the foot. As a foot was lifted, a slice of carrot was popped into the horse's mouth. The plan was to get both actions happening simultaneously. Even though we did get the timing right, it didn't seem to work! Maybe we should have persisted but my philosophy is that if a piece of training doesn't work fairly quickly, best try something else.

Young horses bite each other's legs in play and they have a natural tendency to resist something holding on to a foot. I think they have to be taught, by repetition (desensitisation), that being touched isn't going to hurt them and just stroking with a soft object over and over again seems the best way to do that. At least, that's what seems to work for me and no way am I going to boldly grab hold of a horse's hind leg until it has been thoroughly desensitised.

 

[Leitrim]

To Fides re. post #10:
I don't envy you but from the way you analyse objectives and take them step by step I'll bet you having him asking for manicures by November.

 

[Leitrim]

As a foot was lifted, a slice of carrot was popped into the horse's mouth.

Sounds a bit like a one-arm bandit in reverse.

I'll go with the desensitisation approach as I don't have an over-abundance of boldness either.

 

[Dry Rot]

Sounds a bit like a one-arm bandit in reverse.

I'll go with the desensitisation approach as I don't have an over-abundance of boldness either.

Take it slowly and don't present them with more than they can cope with and it is amazing what they will accept. Not feet, but I sold a 2yo to a girl who insisted on a vetting. The vet finally said, "All I have to do now is examine her eyes. Is there anywhere dark we can take her?' There wasn't, so I suggested throwing a coat over her head. The vet doubted that the filly would put up with that but I knew she would as it is standard training here! I took my coat off and put it over the pony's head. The vet disappeared underneath and the vetting was completed! (The pony passed).

 

[Tnavas]

In the wild when horses fight they grab at each other's legs, so you are actually doing an aggressive thing when you pick up feet.

Options!
Hang on to the leg and don't let go, if she ends up on a knee, so be it. It's because you are acting hesitant that she is playing up.

Ways my farrier here in NZ dealt with my naughty yearling. Get a length of soft rope, fold in half and loop around the Pastern, lift the leg and hang on.

Be bold and firm, think positive that she will pick up. As you run your hand down say "Hold Up" and lean firmly against her to push her weight over to the other leg. Verbal praise is best as you don't have hands free to pass out treats.

Make sure that the footing is good so she can't slip.

 

[samlf]

I went through this with my now three year old, and a friends rescue pony that was unhandled.

Using the 'holding on and not letting go' method doesn't have to be aggressive or nasty, if done calmly and carefully!

You just have to break it up, running your hand down the leg and if the horse stands still then the pressure is removed, which is the reward. If the horse moves, the hand stays on the leg until it stops, then immediately removed. (this doesn't have to be a human hand, can be a glove on a stick, stick with a bag etc).

You just build it up from there, so the horse learns that if it accepts what you are doing (and you are calm, so it is a non-issue) then the pressure is removed before the horse feels they cannot cope.