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appledoberman

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Does pedigree count for anything? Other than knowing what temprement, size etc is likely to be does having a pedigree really mean anything?

It doesnt mean you have a healthy animal after all does it, so many inherited diseases and deformities in these over bred pedigrees.

I mean would you be put off purchasing a pedigree puppy that wasnt KC registered? Or would you think, whats the difference? Unless they are providing proof of hip, eye etc tests for parents then in essence its the same thing isnt it minus a piece of paper? Seems to me KC registration just proves that your puppy is definitely the breed you are being told it is?

A good friend has a pedigree, registered German Shepherd, he has alot of skin problems and lives on drugs from the vet to keep it under control.

I have my scruffy mongrel who is never sick or sorry.

So the question. Would you avoid a pedigree that wasnt KC registered? Would you opt for a cross bred? Would you only go for a KC puppy?
 
I love my particular breed, so yes I wanted a "pedigree" but that wasn't really the aim, rather than the breed.

It is quite a healthy breed compared to some, but I did make sure the parents were health tested. His Dad is a Crufts champion and his owner well known in the circuit and breed, so gave me reassurance that the bitch was equally as nice even though she was from relatively unknown working bloodlines.

I think a lot of people just go for "pedigree" and "KC" registered and don't look any further. My friend certainly did with her Golden Retriever who also has a whole load of skin problems and food allergies. When I asked if the parents had been health tested and what their medical history was she had no clue what I was talking about!

Herein lies the problem I think!
 
Well up until I bought my older dog and my recent pup I was pretty much an average pet owner and I always want to know what is behind a German Shepherd puppy.
As you say, it is not the paper pedigree itself that is important, more the proof of health tests - which do not have to be recorded on a KC pedigree :(

All of our dogs have come from several generations of low hip scoring parents and none of our dogs have ever had hip dysplasia, I do not think that is a coincidence.

A pedigree enables me to look and see a name of a dog and go 'oh hell no, I don't think so'.

Like your friend, my older dog, who has his pink papers from Germany and on paper is very well bred, but has bad skin problems.
HOWEVER because I have that five gen pedigree and have done a bit of research on those names, I can look at two dogs in that pedigree, know that they are known for producing sensitive skin and will say 'never from that combination of bloodlines again' and advise others coming to me for advice on puppy buying not to go for a pedigree featuring those two dogs.

None of my dogs are registered with the UK KC, under the German scheme all health tests and working qualifications are recorded on the dog's pedigree, which I think is a much better system, you can look at it and know exactly what you are getting.

KC registration, as you say, proves that the dog is a pure bred dog.
I would prefer that the KC would also recognise the efforts some breeders go to to make sure that all their breeding stock is health tested.
You can health test and still breed from dogs with very high hip scores and the KC will still accept the registration for the pups, which I think is not good.

Don't pay through the nose just because a dog is 'pedigree' and 'registered' - pay a realistic price to the breeders who are doing things properly and making sure their breeding stock are healthy.

When puppy buyers take their time and are better educated and don't fall for the hard sell, they will not be blinded by 'KC' and 'registered' and look a bit deeper, hopefully.
 
Done properly a known pedigree ought to provide you with a dog with a very small likelihood of having any inherited problems. In an ideal world you can go, well, dogs from that line tend to produce high hip scores, let's not breed from them, this male's offspring tend to have X inheritable condition, let's not breed from them either, oh, but this female won X championship and has a family history of not having Y condition, let's breed from her, great. In theory it ought to provide you with a pretty predictable outcome.

Obviously this is not an ideal world :p and until health tests (and, if I had my way, working trials for working type dogs and temperament tests for toy type dogs) are mandatory for KC registration it really doesn't mean much at all, IMO.

Crossbreeding absolutely does not eliminate these issues.

If I was buying a pup tomorrow I would absolutely insist on KC registration but that would be secondary to every health test on the sun, researching the lines, examining the working ability of the parents etc.

FWIW both of mine are not KC reg, one was second hand, one a rescue. One is robustly healthy (unreg'd offspring of two KC reg parents, incidentally), one is physically sound but has a heritable condition that is often fatal in bitch puppies (along with allergic rhinitis, dunno if that's heritable :p). Both are excluded from a lot of working opportunities because they are unregistered which has been mightily annoying.
 
Our Lancashire Heeler puppy is KC reg and was dna tested for PPL which is the most common ailment in that breed.

My 2 Dobes are rescue and I have no idea of their pedigree and they could even be inbred for all I know which could apply to any breeder who dosnt reg their puppies or their parents although its apparent what breed they are.

The general public see puppies advertised as KC reg and think that is good enough they dont read up on the breed and see what they are likely to suffer from. They could then make an informed choice about going for a puppy with health tested parents.
 
baublecob said:
Obviously this is not an ideal world :p and until health tests (and, if I had my way, working trials for working type dogs and temperament tests for toy type dogs) are mandatory for KC registration it really doesn't mean much at all, IMO.

Crossbreeding absolutely does not eliminate these issues.
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Absolutely this: KC means zip. Health testing is all.
 
As above, KC reg doesn't particularly mean anything if the necessary health tests haven't been carried out. The only useful thing if you have reg names is you can put the name in the kc health test search to find out if a dog actually has results its owners are claiming. As regards pedigrees, I enjoy studying them and going back many generations, it does give an idea of how a dog is going to turn out. I will hopefully be having a litter from my bitch in the spring and people interested in pups have come to me because they want a particular line, obviously without a pedigree they wouldnt know the lines.
 
Because I like my breeds, I would research horrendously to find the right dog. Hips and eyes would need to test clear in the parents and generations back, and I would have to know the temprament of the parents, and the breeder :D .
KC regestration in itself counts for nothing, but all of mine have been regestered. And healthy (paws crossed).
 
We've always had crossbreeds from rescues as our family pets, along with 'proper' pedigree dogs that my parents bought when I was younger and at home.

The crossbreeds have always been healthy until a ripe old age although one had a temperament that I think was definitely a bit unhinged bless him.

I currently have a pedigree kc reg (and health checked!) lab, simply because he was looking for a new home when we lost our last dog. I didn't go out looking for a pedigree dog.
 
Can I just make a general point, it is the health TESTS on the PARENTS that are important, before they are even bred from, there's not that much you can conclusively test on a baby puppy before you sell it at eight weeks.
Vets do not have a crystal ball, for things like hips, eyes, elbows, haemo etc, they need to do actual tests/take x-rays, it takes more than a general check-over.
Sadly some breeders don't want to pay for this, preferring to reverse a female into a male and make maximum profit on the puppies - but those puppies will still be registered.
'Health checked' as it is printed in a classified ad can mean anything - or nothing.
 
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Just an idea perhaps someone could do a sticky about what you should do/ask before buying a pedigree dog.

We get asked this question once a twice a month and if it was stickied(is that a word) people who maybe wouldnt ask would get the chance of reading it first before buying.
 
Kennel Club registration is no guarantee of quality but for a puppy that could be KC registered, not being registered is a huge red flag.
OK some breeds are not accepted by the KC and some will be registered FCI or with a breed register but buying a puppy that isn't registered is like buying a car with no documents.

This week we have had two Bassets brought in.
One has Dog lovers registration with a totally made up pedigree. -why? because an ancestor was probably endorsed not for breeding, too old to breed from or may have been a stray or papers may have been "lost" -or the dog could have been stolen. No way to know & no health tests but a con to confuse the less educated buyer.

The other has KC registration but isn't a Basset hound -looks more like a beagle - and the pedigree has a lot in common with some we see from puppy farms. The KC has to rely on honest registration applications ;(

To answer the original question -no I would not buy any puppy unless I could research all the ancestors and the paperwork and reason for the mating were genuine. I would adopt from a rescue if I didn't want a specific breed or from a breed rescue if I wasn't bothered about bloodlines.
 
CaveCanem said:
Can I just make a general point, it is the health TESTS on the PARENTS that are important, before they are even bred from, there's not that much you can conclusively test on a baby puppy before you sell it at eight weeks.
Vets do not have a crystal ball, for things like hips, eyes, elbows, haemo etc, they need to do actual tests/take x-rays, it takes more than a general check-over.
Sadly some breeders don't want to pay for this, preferring to reverse a female into a male and make maximum profit on the puppies - but those puppies will still be registered.
'Health checked' as it is printed in a classified ad can mean anything - or nothing.[/QUOTE.

Absolutely, (I think my post might have inferred it was the dog I'd got that had been health checked) the parents have good hip, eye and elbow scores.:)
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If I were looking into getting a pedigree dog then I would want to know that both parents had all the relevant health tests done and that the results of things like hip scores if applicable were low for that breed. I would also expect a pedigree dog to be registered with KC and if not then I'd want to know why not (and it better be a good reason!). If I was just looking for a mutt and not particular about breed then I'd rescue
 
baublecob said:
Both are excluded from a lot of working opportunities because they are unregistered which has been mightily annoying.
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This is exactly why I doubt I'll get another non-reg'd dog - you may think you are "joe-average dog owner" but if you suddenly find your dog is great at something or you have a great ability to train in a certain area, or just plain LIKE a doggy activity, you might well find your non-KC mutt (like mine :)) is excluded from bigger and better competitions.
I find it pretty disheartening that even if my dog was the BEST in the country and I was an amazing handler (Im not :P) he could never EVER be a scurry champ/win a trial etc. because he is not KC registered.
 
Great if you are looking to do working trials/obedience/agility - not so good if your "thing" turns out to be field trials! Obviously it depends on your breed and your interests and its not the ONLY reason I'd go KC reg'd, but it is a factor I would have to consider.
 
CaveCanem said:
What about the KC activity register?
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No good for the sled dog stuff, only KC registered Siberian huskies can run under most of the associations. SHCGB is KC only (and their breed rescue only takes KC reg dogs), AMWA, BSHRA and SDAS accept dogs with reg numbers from the main breed rescues (along with a confirmation letter from the rescue and/or an examination by two referees, I forget which requires which) but not any other dogs - i.e, R could run with some of them if I jumped through the hoops but D can't run with any.

I could start a rant but I'll leave it for another day. :p
 
Apart from one pup all my dogs have even rescued.

All mine are working Springers and yes I hope they are all healthy, but all I'm looking for is their working ability.

If you are looking to show or compete then registration does matter.

It is like having a horse vetted, which I have never had done.
 
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