For those of you with goldfish in your water troughs

Leviathan said:
your opinion!!!! my youngest fish is 10 years old thus gone through 10 years in the trough so 10 winters.

That's it I am done the holier than though fish preachers is getting boring. You will never convert or change the minds of us who have kept fish from as long back as the 70.s. Seeing my fish in my troughs healthy and happy is enough. That said cleaning the troughs out to often does not do the fish any favours as you should only change 10 % of the water never all of it.,
Right I am out of here play nice .
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Oh, I'm only three times as old as your oldest fish. I'm not sure how stupid you think I am. Like I said, I kept goldfish in a tank in the house for years. They were all bought tiny and grew to be very large.

Keeping fish in troughs in the first place is going them no favours.
 
Actually i do not know how old my oldest fish is, only how long I have had it, my youngest I do know because he was born in the troughs. So he is 10 years old
 
I can see people have been doing this for years and the fish have survived however its not something I would do.
I know people who have kept their dogs on chains in a garden for 10 years or people who's parrots havent been out of their cage for 30 years etc (dont get me started on parrot welfare) and they seem fine, rabbits cooped up in little hutches etc doesnt make it right. 20 years ago we didnt know as much about animal management as we do now, there are no longer excuses .JMHO.
 
I can't believe such an innocent-seeming question has sparked such a long and argumentative thread!

A water trough is so full of sh** from many sources and I doubt fish would do much more to it.

I do like the sound of Horlicks Chaff - I love Horlicks.
 
Leviathan said:
Actually i do not know how old my oldest fish is, only how long I have had it, my youngest I do know because he was born in the troughs. So he is 10 years old
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Can you do something with your siggy, Leviathan? I don't know if it's just my screen or what but it's huge and eye searingly bright.
 
I keep Koi in a pond with a filter and pump and they will only grow as much as their resources allow. If 'trough' fish are growing and breeding I fail to see why this is being castigated by so many. Also, if this bothers you, would you ever bit your horse again considering the scientific evidence put forward from another poster?
 
I have heard this before and although personally wouldn't (I would be scared that the water in my trough would get too low for them and would kill them) as like others have said what goes in must come out although I don't think it can do them much harm. I also know nothing about fish so wouldn't even contemplate buying one and throwing it in a trough as I have no clue about these creatures. If I knew more about them I might consider it. I do prefer my horses to drink clean water though. I will be sticking to my stiff dandy brush (Cleans scum off troughs lovely :) ).
 
Wow - hadn't realised this would generate such extreme views!
I have no problem with cleaning out my troughs it was just that OH had read somewhere that fish can help & thought it would be a good idea. Don't worry, I have no intention of causing any harm to any fish!
 
A tip for those of you with concrete troughs.

ONce you have scrubbed and emptied, rinsed etc rub powdered limestone on the walls and bottom of the trough - it keeps them algae free.

We had to do this at the very big stud I worked at and their troughs were always sparkly clean.
 
indie999 said:
Yep I agree my goldfish as a kid did poo little lines and at the moment I have pigeons polluting the water. I am thinking would a cat fish make it cleaner as they eat all the muck up the side of the glass in a tank. But yes I agree if it freezes problem. Interesting.
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I assume b catfish you mean pleco- this will not help clean your tank.
Sure, SOME do eat algae but ALL need supplemented feeding to stay healthy.
Please look at planer cat fish before buying anything- and remember that most of the commonly traded plecos will get big.
The common pleco starts off a cue algae muncher but grows to two feet long if it is not deformed by a too small tank and at that size likes meat....that would be the other fish in your tank ;)


TeddyBean said:
Although goldfish may eat the algae, what goes in one end must come out the other and goldfish create a LOT of mess! They also raise the ammonia levels in the water.
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The ammonia will only be an issue while the trough cycles- that is, while the environment is growing a large enough colony of of nitrosomonas bacteria which will convert that ammonia into nitrite.
This is in many ways even more harmful to fish then the original ammonia but thankfully nature knows best and at that point nitrobacter will grow converting nitrite into nitrate.
That can only be removed by some for of nutrient export(water changes or plant growth) and gets harmful too at high levels.
Horses, even though they are monogastric, are susceptible to nitrate poisoning throughout their lives.
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http://www.bae.ncsu.edu/programs/extension/publicat/wqwm/ag473_4.html


Black Beastie said:
Ok PR whatever you want to believe, go back to fairy land ;)

I hate how people think chlorine for a few hours won't be harmful. How would you like it if we got all those saying this to breathe something harmful for a few hours everyday, I'm sure a few attitudes would change pretty sharpish :(
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I agree, and so does every single piece of research done into the effects of chlorine and chloramines on fish.

Chorine and chloramines(which BTW will NOT evaporate in standing water so can onl be made safe by a decent dechlorinator) are often compared to carbon monoxide.
Sure, there MIGHT be a safe level for humans, but would you want to stand in a room filling up with monoxide? ;) It's only for a few hours afterall......


doriangrey said:
I keep Koi in a pond with a filter and pump and they will only grow as much as their resources allow.
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If you are at a desk would you mind hitting your head on it a few times please? Thanks!
Stunting fish is no more OK then leaving a head collar to inbed itself in a growing horses nose.


doriangrey said:
If 'trough' fish are growing and breeding I fail to see why this is being castigated by so many.
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Yes, you fail.
Fish breed because they breed. They do not have to be happy with some Barry White playing to get in it on.
Many species will breed MORE in bad conditions to try and secure the next generation before the current are dead.
Breeding is not proof of good husbandry,nor is the absence of dead fish Leviathan- fish eat other fish, a corpse will be made short work of by a group of large goldies.


doriangrey said:
Also, if this bothers you, would you ever bit your horse again considering the scientific evidence put forward from another poster?
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Depends on the "evidence" ;)
We are learning all the time,well most of us.
Some seem intent on parading around their ignorance as a badge of honer.
 
I had posted a link to the FishChannel.com which had some interesting information about keeping fish in troughs, I think it is interesting and explains a lot which doesn't appear to match what a few of you seem to be saying, so I have copied and pasted the info:

Why do aquarists seem to have so many problems keeping goldfish alive and thriving in small (20 gallon) tanks? Why do pondkeepers have substantially fewer problems with goldfish, but more significant problems with koi? The riddle is answered by your story.

These cattle troughs routinely hold between 150 and 300 gallons of water. Several goldfish are placed in them, and they are never fed. Instead, the goldfish live off of algae growing on the trough walls and insects that fall into the water. They also cannibalize each other and eat their own eggs.

Underfed and under-populated, they produce little ammonia. What ammonia they do produce is detoxified easily by nitrifying bacteria that populate the tank walls. These cattle troughs reach a comfortable and sustainable biological equilibrium.

So, the secret of success here is fish load control and feeding management. A low fish mass-to-water volume ratio and low levels of feeding produce healthy and stable fish populations in these cattle troughs. Six goldfish in 300 gallons is equivalent to one goldfish in a 55-gallon aquarium. Now, who do you know who stocks a goldfish tank like that?

Over the years I've received numerous letters from readers taking me to task for unrealistic recommendations for stocking goldfish tanks. In most cases these people simply don't understand that goldfish are massive fish for their length, that they need water high in dissolved oxygen, and that they produce significant amounts of waste, making modest stocking densities essential if good water quality is going to be maintained in an aquarium.

I typically suggest that a pair of goldfish in a 30-gallon tank is already a little crowded, and that a 55-gallon tank would be even better. Not many goldfish keepers are willing to accept such a recommendation. Most hobbyists also overfeed their fish, adding to the bioload in the tank. The filtration system cannot cope with this, and the water quality deteriorates to the point where the fish are under chronic physical stress and become sick.
 
Field04 said:
I had posted a link to the FishChannel.com which had some interesting information about keeping fish in troughs, I think it is interesting and explains a lot which doesn't appear to match what a few of you seem to be saying, so I have copied and pasted the info:

Why do aquarists seem to have so many problems keeping goldfish alive and thriving in small (20 gallon) tanks? Why do pondkeepers have substantially fewer problems with goldfish, but more significant problems with koi? The riddle is answered by your story.

These cattle troughs routinely hold between 150 and 300 gallons of water. Several goldfish are placed in them, and they are never fed. Instead, the goldfish live off of algae growing on the trough walls and insects that fall into the water. They also cannibalize each other and eat their own eggs.

Underfed and under-populated, they produce little ammonia. What ammonia they do produce is detoxified easily by nitrifying bacteria that populate the tank walls. These cattle troughs reach a comfortable and sustainable biological equilibrium.

So, the secret of success here is fish load control and feeding management. A low fish mass-to-water volume ratio and low levels of feeding produce healthy and stable fish populations in these cattle troughs. Six goldfish in 300 gallons is equivalent to one goldfish in a 55-gallon aquarium. Now, who do you know who stocks a goldfish tank like that?

Over the years I've received numerous letters from readers taking me to task for unrealistic recommendations for stocking goldfish tanks. In most cases these people simply don't understand that goldfish are massive fish for their length, that they need water high in dissolved oxygen, and that they produce significant amounts of waste, making modest stocking densities essential if good water quality is going to be maintained in an aquarium.

I typically suggest that a pair of goldfish in a 30-gallon tank is already a little crowded, and that a 55-gallon tank would be even better. Not many goldfish keepers are willing to accept such a recommendation. Most hobbyists also overfeed their fish, adding to the bioload in the tank. The filtration system cannot cope with this, and the water quality deteriorates to the point where the fish are under chronic physical stress and become sick.
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I have read this before, sounds to me like the water trough is a far better way to keep fish than most hobby fish keepers with the best of intentions. Not suprising though, animals rarely thrive if the conditions don't suit. Most of the critical posts then are from people with little understanding over reacting.:D
 
I remember as a child Fing and Fong our fairground trophies, living in a tank in the hall with no filtration system - Dad fed them to ensure they didn't get overfed. They had weed growing in the tank and I know dad cleaned it regularly - they lived for many years!

Quote:
Originally Posted by doriangrey
I keep Koi in a pond with a filter and pump and they will only grow as much as their resources allow.

If you are at a desk would you mind hitting your head on it a few times please? Thanks!
Stunting fish is no more OK then leaving a head collar to inbed itself in a growing horses nose.

This is not STUNTING fish - they are capable of limiting their size by their environment - which I think is quite amazing for any creature.
 
Pale Rider said:
I have read this before, sounds to me like the water trough is a far better way to keep fish than most hobby fish keepers with the best of intentions. Not suprising though, animals rarely thrive if the conditions don't suit. Most of the critical posts then are from people with little understanding over reacting.:D
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Most hobbyists?
ROFL!
The hobby is one that takes itself seriously indeed,a lot of effort is put into our animals and they are most definatly not just a "thing" to save an annoying cleaning task.....

Now the basic rule of thumb(although not initself a fool proof formula) is that a fish need a minimum of six times it;s adult size in length and two to three times its adult length in the width of the tank.
Fancy goldies are generally recommended at 100 litres for the first fish with an extra 50 litres per addition fih in the tank and commons out in ponds as they are simply too big and too active swimmers for all but the biggest tanks.
Keeping horses has far more unethical practice ;)

Tnavas said:
I remember as a child Fing and Fong our fairground trophies, living in a tank in the hall with no filtration system - Dad fed them to ensure they didn't get overfed. They had weed growing in the tank and I know dad cleaned it regularly - they lived for many years!
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1)
They DID have filtration, the needed bacteria grow on any and eery surface they can so that garish coloured gravel is part of the filter.

Not as good by any means aas a proper filter,but it will keep a prudently stocked tank chemicaly clean pretty well.

2) How many years? Goldfish can live for 30 years, did yours? ;)


Originally Posted by doriangrey
I keep Koi in a pond with a filter and pump and they will only grow as much as their resources allow.[/SIZE][/I]

If you are at a desk would you mind hitting your head on it a few times please? Thanks!
Stunting fish is no more OK then leaving a head collar to inbed itself in a growing horses nose.

This is not STUNTING fish - they are capable of limiting their size by their environment - which I think is quite amazing for any creature.
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No more then a child can stop itself growing when it has no food :p

It’ll only grow to the size of the tank
Seriously, what kind of absolute fool spurts this one out anymore? Of course fish only grow to the size of their tank, that’s why there’s a roaring market for Blue shark pups to go into big aquaria, never getting any more than a couple of feet long. Utter bilge.

Of course, like so many myths, there’s a foundation of semi-truth about this line. Let’s take the humble goldfish as an example, and specifically the fact that nobody seems to understand that a goldfish will live in excess of 20 years and eventually become quite the monster.

When people buy a goldfish and stick it into their tiny plastic death-box, they fully expect the fish to last maybe a year or so at the best. In this time, the fish perhaps doubles in size, looking cramped but alive. Eventually overloading the filter (assuming it’s lucky enough to even have one) the hapless goldy’s organs fail, and it carps it (no pun), completing the illusion that it grew to the size of the tank – not having lived long enough to outgrow it – and lived a happy and full life.

Those few keepers who manage to keep their goldy alive, by comparison, find their fish does eventually outgrow the tank, leading to a succession of ever expansive aquaria to cater for their whimsical purchase. But then they tend to find themselves the exception and not the rule.

The other thing that happens is that some fish stunt. Clown loach are a good example of this, becoming grotesque fat lumps with curved backs when kept in too small a tank. Let’s be clear about this; stunting and growing to the size of the tank are two entirely different things. Fish are not some kind of bonsai animal that you can sculpt in miniature, they have growth potential and they want to use it. Stunting plays havoc with immunity, reproduction, and overall health of the fish, which in turn makes it cruel.

And none of us are in this to be cruel, right? I’m looking at you, live fish feeders.
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Written by Nathan Hill,who workks for Practical Fish keeping magazine.
He has worked at public aquariums, been manager at an aquatics retail store and also worked as an aquarist at Reaseheath college.
But he does not keep fish the way you do, and so knows nothing right? :p

Sadly, some people do seem to consider fish as a decorative object rather then a living animal protected by the Animal Rights Act (oh yes, they are- so think carefully when abusing them!) but I am shocked and saddened to find this attitude displayed on a forum that is supposed to be a place frequented by people who care about animals.
ETA link :
http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=4061
 
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OK, I don't really have any personal interest in this subject beyond the academic - I don't intend to keep fish in a water trough and I haven't seen any certifiable evidence that keeping fish in a trough is any more cruel that in a glass box in your living room.

But I really don't think anyone on this thread doesn't care about the health and well being of the fish. Nor do I believe they are ignorantly ignoring the possible suffering of the fish in their troughs because 'it is only fish'. They believe that the fish are perfectly happy and healthy because the fish in their troughs seem to be thriving. It is impossible to say that there is not something about the environment of the animal trough that means that the problems that the others have envisaged with keeping fish in this way, simply aren't problems in this particular environment. The exact nature of that environment, as far as I can tell, can only be guessed at.
 
Black Beastie said:
The chlorine in tap water strips the lining of the gills from fish, hence why you have to de-chlorinate water before it goes in fish bowls. the dechlorinator isnt toxic as Degus have to have dechlorinated water and our parrots had their water dechlorinated using a dropper. People who dont dechlorinate water for fish are @rses IMO :mad: Its less than a fiver for the little bottle and it takes a few drops to do it. Avid fishkeeper here had two ponds and a few fish tanks as well as working in pet stores. I hate it when people do this to fish, then they have the cheek to come in and moan the fish they bought died :rolleyes:

I have goldfish that I bought for my son when he was two and he is now fifteen, they are in a 60 litre biorb, were in a smaller tank but grew and I thought they needed more space, they hare happy and healthy and I always clean the tank using tap water. I do change the filters regularly and use a pad to clean the algae off without having to change the water too often.
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Pale Rider said:
I have read this before, sounds to me like the water trough is a far better way to keep fish than most hobby fish keepers with the best of intentions. Not suprising though, animals rarely thrive if the conditions don't suit. Most of the critical posts then are from people with little understanding over reacting.:D
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There is just something, well, how can I say this in a way that will not get me banned from this forum. Pale Rider you are as irritating as thrush.
 
Maybe the ones that thrive aren't on mains water. Like most farms I expect, no chlorine in our water which has (wild) fish living in it before it gets to the main tank :p. also cattle water troughs are mahoosive, like ponds.
 
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I am now tempted to put our ex fairground fish, which has survived student flats:eek:, and is now in a tank that isn't 6 times its length, out in the horse trough. It is 15 years old..

All our water,house and trough, is spring fed, therefore no chlorine.
I have to say that Pets at Home doesn't exactly have a great animal welfare reputation, so am a bit puzzled at the trough fish keepers getting such a hard time for their fish keeping methods on this thread.
It is an enjoyable read though. I'm remembering my childhood goldfish, Maria, who lived in an old stone sink in the garden for many years and was frozen solid every winter. The advice then was not to break the ice as the shock would kill.
 
Oh for gods sake, no one has ever broken their heart over a fecking goldfish, if they have they need a fecking life.
 
DabDab said:
It is a bizarre subject to spark off so much excitement :confused:
On the subject of Pets at Home - I have seen dead fish, fish with fin rot, Siamese fighting fish kept together and going at each other like lunatics...
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Same here. I have seen poor little gourami in a tank being shredded by Malawi cichlids, and the girl had the audacity to interrogate me when I bought 4 cardinal tetras, they looked healthy and a fab price so took a chance! They went into a quarantine tank first too and the girl seemed insulted by that,but I have hundreds of pounds worth of fish and wouldn't risk introducing disease....and then I gave her a lecture on Malawis NOT being compatible with gourami.....
 
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