For those of you with goldfish in your water troughs

Nightmare before Christmas said:
fish and chips anyone?
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Yes please - waves hand franticaly! On a high protein diet and could kill for the chips at the moment but the scales are keeping me under control 3kgs in a coupleof weeks gone!

It's wickedly cold here in NZ and I've thrown the flour away as I had an overwhelming urge to make cheese scones!

Fing and Fong lived for at least 10 years with no oxygen kit in the tank and I remember now that every day dad removed a pint of water and replaced it with fresh tap water. They never increased in size from the day we won them throwing ping pong balls into little goldfish bowls - I used to entertain mine in spring by giving them a tadpole or two to play with - they had great fun.

This is an opening for the frog huggers to leap in! ;):D
 
ozpoz said:
I have to say that Pets at Home doesn't exactly have a great animal welfare reputation, so am a bit puzzled at the trough fish keepers getting such a hard time for their fish keeping methods on this thread.
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Because one group doing it wrong does not give everyone else carte blanche to do worse.
The preservation of standards (and where possible the raising of them by increasing our education on a subject) is all important when it comes to animal welfare.
The race to the bottom benefits no one- the animals least of all.

justabob said:
Oh for gods sake, no one has ever broken their heart over a fecking goldfish, if they have they need a fecking life.
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Sure Jamie Grey thought the same when Spindles farm was raided- tis only a fecking horse right? ;)
Any animal taken into a humans care is to be cared for, regardless of it's price or fluffyness :rolleyes:
 
wouldnt want my horses having to drink their *****, fish owner myself i know how dirty and what disease they can carry, also one of mine would eat it.
 
Iv never heard of fish in troughs before, very interesting :)

Although I personally wouldn't keep fish full stop, royal pain in the bum if you ask me :p.
 
FairyBasslet said:
Because one group doing it wrong does not give everyone else carte blanche to do worse.
The preservation of standards (and where possible the raising of them by increasing our education on a subject) is all important when it comes to animal welfare.
The race to the bottom benefits no one- the animals least of all.



Sure Jamie Grey thought the same when Spindles farm was raided- tis only a fecking horse right? ;)
Any animal taken into a humans care is to be cared for, regardless of it's price or fluffyness :rolleyes:
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I an astounded that you can compare my post to to such cruelty as Spindles Farm. You really have shown yourself up to be a most ridiculous and stupid person, who from now on I shall ignore all postsfrom you........ Idiot
 
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justabob said:
Oh for gods sake, no one has ever broken their heart over a fecking goldfish, if they have they need a fecking life.
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justabob said:
I an astounded that you can compare my post to to such cruelty as Spindles Farm. You really have shown yourself up to be a most ridiculous and stupid person, who from now on I shall ignore all posts from you........ Idiot
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Ohhhh :( I am truly gutted- I normally go out of my way to befriend people with no respect for animals!
In moral terms, 100 dead and dying horses are no different to 100 dead and dying fish,if you have morals that is.

At what point does it stop being "just a fecking......" whatever it may be to you?
What is the criteria that stops an animal being disposable to you?
Cost? Cuteness? How much prestige you get from owning it? :rolleyes:
 
Not sure why pets at home keeps being brought into the discussion really?? I also agree that just because its a fish doesn't mean it shouldn't be treated with the same respect as other animals. If tanks are using fresh chlorine free water (and the tanks are large) then they are probs reasonably happy, it's only using chlorinated water that is the real problem.

P.s I don't work at pets at home :p
 
FairyBasslet said:
Ohhhh :( I am truly gutted- I normally go out of my way to befriend people with no respect for animals!
In moral terms, 100 dead and dying horses are no different to 100 dead and dying fish,if you have morals that is.

At what point does it stop being "just a fecking......" whatever it may be to you?
What is the criteria that stops an animal being disposable to you?
Cost? Cuteness? How much prestige you get from owning it? :rolleyes:
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Is there any need to be so rude? So far you haven't presented any evidence that goldfish in troughs aren't thriving. And, by the way, where do you think the goldfish come from that end up in pet stores - you might want to look at how and in what conditions they are raised. If you are so upset over what you think these fish are suffering, take another look at the x-rays and evidence of what a bit is doing to a horse's mouth. Ironic that you should question another person's morals. Bounce your head off your own desk you hypocrite.
 
shortstuff99 said:
Not sure why pets at home keeps being brought into the discussion really?? I also agree that just because its a fish doesn't mean it shouldn't be treated with the same respect as other animals. If tanks are using fresh chlorine free water (and the tanks are large) then they are probs reasonably happy, it's only using chlorinated water that is the real problem.

P.s I don't work at pets at home :p
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Because someone bought it up earlier - them working there was the credentials supporting their opinion. No idea who that was now though :o:)
 
doriangrey said:
Is there any need to be so rude? So far you haven't presented any evidence that goldfish in troughs aren't thriving.
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A trough is in principle not really any different from a pond or tank.It is a container, if it is not made of lead,copper or any number of other metals that are harmful to the fish AND it has filtration AND the are fed.

My issue is with people like yourself who think the fish will somehow magically stop growing when it gets too big for it's environment,that they can be healthy without correct feeding and filtration,that chlorine and chloramines are not in any way harmful to them and that they can abuse fish to save themselves the annoying chore of cleaning out a horses drinking trough! :mad::mad::mad:

Nor is a 60 litre biorb(or ruddy expensive sphere of death if we would like a more fitting name) is simply not enough for goldfish.
They will suffer,they will die young and they will never be healthy.
Survival on its own is NOT enough to prove quality of life.


To put it another way, I have a great dane. I don't ever let it out of my living room, it can turn around so why bother giving it more space?
Obviously I don't feed it, it can live perfectly well off scraps that fall on the floor!
Oh and feeding it chocolate and grapes is fine, I only do it a few hours a day and after all, it is "only a fecking dog" ad it serves it's purpose to me so why should I worry about it's welfare..............



doriangrey said:
And, by the way, where do you think the goldfish come from that end up in pet stores - you might want to look at how and in what conditions they are raised.
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Which ones?
The pure bred specialist shops(bristol shubunkins for example) live a life of fishy luxury before being sold to people prepared to spend a lot of time effort and money on them,their accommodation and their care.
Most common common and fancy pet shop goldfish will come from Chinese and Asian fish farms(which also supply the majority of captive bred tropical fish too. While not UK level of care, are still pretty good).

The only fish that get a really rough ride are marines, any idea how some of them get caught (don't google, you know or you do not :p ).
IF you have any understanding of how and what the hobby is doing to source sustainably and that the hobby also puts far more money into the protection of coral reefs then any other section of society and you can stuff your allegations of industry wide accepted immorality where the sun does not shine ;)


doriangrey said:
If you are so upset over what you think these fish are suffering, take another look at the x-rays and evidence of what a bit is doing to a horse's mouth. Ironic that you should question another person's morals. Bounce your head off your own desk you hypocrite.
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Have I ever said I use a bit? ;)
Not to mention I have not seen this evidence you are going on about. Link it (it will be an interesting read if it is a proper study with controll groups and full bitting/riding history as well as documents of any trauma to the mouth of horses investigated and not someone with an agenda trying to shock) or stop bleating on about it.

And once again, abuse of an animal bad.
The second we buy them we take on a duty of care.
 
DabDab said:
Because someone bought it up earlier - them working there was the credentials supporting their opinion. No idea who that was now though :o:)
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Yup but I'm not sure it's quite as relevant as the frequency with which it is being brought up as there are some uber fish keepers on this forum with a lot more knowledge that PAH :).
 
Pets at home is being mentioned in this thread because an early poster said that she worked at pets at home and so was, "more than qualified" to know what she was talking about.
I find that suggestion hilarious, based on my local Pets at home.
Obviously, other branches are much the same given the other comments.
Absolutely awful place to buy livestock of any sort or ask for
advice.
 
I kept four goldfish that I won at the fayre in a water trough and I actually think they had quite a nice life, a lot more fun and exciting than living in a small bowl by someone's dishwasher. The trough was in the field with the cows and the horses, none of the fishies got eaten, although I can imagine it was quite exciting for them to duck for cover before my old mare stuck her face in there to have a wash!

I don't have any now, it is far easier to clean the troughs out myself, but I do think those fish had a better life in my water trough than they would have done in someone's house...
 
All this from a simple question!

It's a bit like when you start the rabbit people on a discussion of keeping a rabbit in anything other than a massive shed :D

*dons tin hat and legs it*
 
ribbons said:
Pets at home is being mentioned in this thread because an early poster said that she worked at pets at home and so was, "more than qualified" to know what she was talking about.
I find that suggestion hilarious, based on my local Pets at home.
Obviously, other branches are much the same given the other comments.
Absolutely awful place to buy livestock of any sort or ask for
advice.
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For a huge company, who can buy in bulk, they are also vastly more expensive than any of my local family owned pet shops for feed/chews/toys etc.
 
But isn't the chlorine supposed to "evaporate" from the water by itself anyway?
So, the old water in your trough is pretty much chlorine free and if the horse takes a 10 litres sip, the new chlorinated water will be dissolved in something like 200 litres of chlorine free water, making no difference to the fish?

I've heard of people using wild type guppies for moskito control in hot countries. They also tend to put a stone with holes at the bottom so the fish can hide when horses come to drink.
 
Palindrome said:
But isn't the chlorine supposed to "evaporate" from the water by itself anyway?
So, the old water in your trough is pretty much chlorine free and if the horse takes a 10 litres sip, the new chlorinated water will be dissolved in something like 200 litres of chlorine free water, making no difference to the fish?
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Choline most certainly does,chloramine on the other hand does not but is just as dangerous to fish and most water boards use both.
As I said earlier, there may well be a safe level of carbon monoxide for humans, but would you risk it?
The vast majority of commercial dechlorineaters will bind both eliminating the problem and the other option is to run the water past a carbon block before use.
This would require a HMA or RODI unit, however is using RODI the water would be unsafe to drink or use for fish keeping without re mineralisation.



Palindrome said:
I've heard of people using wild type guppies for moskito control in hot countries. They also tend to put a stone with holes at the bottom so the fish can hide when horses come to drink.
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Indeed, the humble guppy and endlers live bearer have been highly successful in many parts of the world at keeping mosquito population's down and in some cases all but eradicating them.
The flip side is they are now out competing native species in many areas as they breed so fast and the more natural strains are very hardy fish that can adapt well to varying conditions.
If it is a price worth paying is one for the philosophers, but I like to think it is.
 
FairyBasslet said:
A trough is in principle not really any different from a pond or tank.It is a container, if it is not made of lead,copper or any number of other metals that are harmful to the fish AND it has filtration AND the are fed.

My issue is with people like yourself who think the fish will somehow magically stop growing when it gets too big for it's environment,that they can be healthy without correct feeding and filtration,that chlorine and chloramines are not in any way harmful to them and that they can abuse fish to save themselves the annoying chore of cleaning out a horses drinking trough! :mad::mad::mad:
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Why do I have to repeat myself. You have no evidence that the fish in the troughs are not thriving and healthy. I can't recall where (in any of my posts) I have mentioned that chlorine and chloramines are not harmful to fish. Maybe you would be so helpful as to point it out? As to correct feeding, I would expect that a fish in a trough would get pretty much a natural diet.


Nor is a 60 litre biorb(or ruddy expensive sphere of death if we would like a more fitting name) is simply not enough for goldfish.
They will suffer,they will die young and they will never be healthy.
Survival on its own is NOT enough to prove quality of life.


To put it another way, I have a great dane. I don't ever let it out of my living room, it can turn around so why bother giving it more space?
Obviously I don't feed it, it can live perfectly well off scraps that fall on the floor!
Oh and feeding it chocolate and grapes is fine, I only do it a few hours a day and after all, it is "only a fecking dog" ad it serves it's purpose to me so why should I worry about it's welfare..............
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Your analogy doesn't really stand up. Great Danes don't live in the wild, goldfish (a domestication on the Crucian carp do), no I didn't google it, I keep Koi and I made it my business to know about them before I got into keeping them.



Which ones?
The pure bred specialist shops(bristol shubunkins for example) live a life of fishy luxury before being sold to people prepared to spend a lot of time effort and money on them,their accommodation and their care.
Most common common and fancy pet shop goldfish will come from Chinese and Asian fish farms(which also supply the majority of captive bred tropical fish too. While not UK level of care, are still pretty good).

The only fish that get a really rough ride are marines, any idea how some of them get caught (don't google, you know or you do not :p ).
IF you have any understanding of how and what the hobby is doing to source sustainably and that the hobby also puts far more money into the protection of coral reefs then any other section of society and you can stuff your allegations of industry wide accepted immorality where the sun does not shine ;)
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Polite as usual I see. I'm talking about fish farms, where goldfish are raised in their millions in natural ponds without filtration (the ponds are often dark green with algae and that is encouraged because it promotes colour), until they reach a big enough size to ship off to the pet shops. Yes I do know what a Bristol Shubunkin is (also London Shubunkin, Oranda, Ranchu, Celestial, Japanese fantail, Demekin etc) not because (as you intimated I googled it) but when I decided to keep fish I bought myself a handy little book called Goldfish Guide by Dr Yoshiichi Matsui and Dr Herbert R Axelrod as I thought it might be prudent to arm myself with a little knowledge beforehand. Perhaps you have read it? It has an interesting section on Koi and it so happened that's what I decided on. I have a very nice specimen of Shusui type (even though I say so myself).


Have I ever said I use a bit? ;)
Not to mention I have not seen this evidence you are going on about. Link it (it will be an interesting read if it is a proper study with controll groups and full bitting/riding history as well as documents of any trauma to the mouth of horses investigated and not someone with an agenda trying to shock) or stop bleating on about it.

And once again, abuse of an animal bad.
The second we buy them we take on a duty of care.
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A little light reading for you.


http://www.naturalhorseworld.com/Downloads/ToBitorNottoBit.pdf


In my opinion it is not your knowledge but attitude that stinks. It wouldn't have been an idea of mine to put goldfish into a trough, but your dismissive attitude to everyone that has and appears to have healthy fish that have survived for years as though they are cruel, fish-abusers is wanting. Maybe you could stop bleating on about how cruel they are until you know for sure that the fish are suffering?

I stopped using a bit on my mare years ago because plainly it didn't suit her, having read the attached I'll be re-thinking very carefully if I ever use one again. It doesn't mean I'll be accusing everyone who bits their horse of wanton cruelty, people decide for themselves on the evidence presented.
 
My friend uses hers more to keep mosquito larvae levels down rather than for keeping the troughs clean as I know she does clean hers out.

Anyone who's horse suffers from sweet itch would benefit from keeping goldfish in their water troughs as the majority of midges go through an aquatic larval stage. If the fish eat the midges their are less of them to harrass the horse.
 
Could someone please explain to me why all these fish in troughs have managed to survive in contaminated water?

It seems that those with fish in troughs (I was also one of these evil people) are reporting that they have lived for 10+ years but others are saying that fish cannot survive in such polluted water.

So? How come these fish survive?
 
guido16 said:
Could someone please explain to me why all these fish in troughs have managed to survive in contaminated water?

It seems that those with fish in troughs (I was also one of these evil people) are reporting that they have lived for 10+ years but others are saying that fish cannot survive in such polluted water.

So? How come these fish survive?
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Good question, my gold fish are over 10 year old as well and are kept in a Biorb!! (shock, horror) They look well too and get all excited in the morning when I walk towards their tank to feed them. :D
 
Off subject a bit but I've always wondered why pet fish gather ready for feeding when you approach the tank. Apparently the experts say they only have a 3 second memory.
 
I am doubting the memory thing too. My fish know exactly were to wait for breakfast. Also when I do the weekly mop up round the pond with a net one fish comes and plays, deliberately swimming in to the net and larking about (in a fishy way of course).
 
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