For those who like a puzzle

[Boulty]

Is there an option to bring him off the track? I know stabling isn't ideal but you could stable with a soaked double bagged net and turn out on the track for a bit, you could consider muzzling, I know my mare can still use a haynet with a muzzle on, it just takes longer!

No stables where we are, no & whilst there is somewhere he can be penned off he would go straight through the fence in those circumstances whether electric is working or not! (When he’s come back from vets and needed keeping quieter for a few days then we’ve penned him off with a friend. A person physically stood there with a lunging whip is required for the first several hours of confinement or he does just force his way out via ducking under the “gate” & breaking the gate springs… this is simply not a realistic daily possibility)

He’s VERY good at removing or otherwise destroying muzzles if he feels they’re actually restricting him (their literal job)& is rather creative in disposing of them where they can’t be found (it absolutely would end up over the fence on the M1!) & he’d obviously just gorge whenever it’s off anyway.

Also this brings us back to not being willing to give him a crap quality of life just for the sake of keeping him alive. (in that if I’m having to do such extreme things to control his weight due to not being in work is it fair to keep him alive if his existence would be fairly miserable?)

I’m fairly confident that there is both nowhere suitable to rent locally (been looking for about 10 years) or anywhere else livery wise better suited to his needs closer than a 60-90 min drive. (Was in contact with about 50 yards when looking after Covid). Ironically there IS somewhere for sale in a good location that I could probably make suit (if he could cope with most of field being on a slope, good for fitness but perhaps not for arthritic hocks?) but I just don’t have the funds to buy outright (& then invest in re fencing the perimeter as netting there atm not fully horse safe, putting surface / mud matts down to track it, apply to slightly corrupt (as in about half of department been convicted I think) planning dept for planning for this, electric fencing supplies etc). Wish I did


Anyhow the wheels are slowly in motion for sorting out X-rays & MRI, trimmer coming for a look at feet in a few weeks, checkup with normal vet in about 3 weeks (at which point we’ll do the dynamic insulin test & discuss drug options). Also got a nutritionist (Nikki Meggison I think?) coming with a weighbridge in a few weeks to weigh whole yard (he was weighed at vets but figured may be worth a talk for any other bright ideas plus as yard owner has arranged she’s highly likely to take her advice)

Currently looking more comfortable in front in terms of confidence over unlevel surfaces (but not actually landing any better & plaiting still there) but still looks a bit stiff behind to me & still not happy having hind feet picked out.

 

[tda]

I know it's not everyone's favourite place but have you considered Gawsworth, for a say 6 month stint? This would really get him moving , which might help with the foot balance, then see how he is, if slimmer and looking good you can start ridden work
It sounds like you've tried so much to help him x

 

[JFTDWS]

I really don't want to see the headline "Multi-car pile up on M1 after horse throws muzzle through windshield of passing motorist"!

 

[pistolpete]

I know it's not everyone's favourite place but have you considered Gawsworth, for a say 6 month stint? This would really get him moving , which might help with the foot balance, then see how he is, if slimmer and looking good you can start ridden work
It sounds like you've tried so much to help him x

This boy has had a spell at Gawsworth it’s a bit far for OP.

 

[tda]

This boy has had a spell at Gawsworth it’s a bit far for OP.

Ah, ok

 

[Boulty]

The frustration is (still) real.

Did end up at Rainbow in the end. Awaiting report from MRI (they also are currently doing free CT on all foot MRIs so there should hopefully be a report for that as well) as obviously many many images to go through.

Passed full neuro exam but still slightly lame in front (hind end did seem to improve at start of last week).

X-rays of neck sort of not conclusive as they are not totally clear of abnormalities but equally nothing that impinges on nerves or has any joint involvement. There is something abnormal in area of C7. (Don’t think we’re classing it as an ECVM type thing, more filing it under “other”) Technically it shouldn’t be causing an issue (but horses don’t read textbooks do they?) Would need to CT scan to truly determine what is going on. This would require GA. Don’t think I want to go that far. Another suggestion is re X-ray in 6 months & see if it’s changed at all. Vet happy with muscling of & ROM in neck. Awaiting a copy to have a better look / show to interested parties.

Horse then proceeds to be absolutely abysmal to trimtoday. Literally just pulling his foot away after 30 seconds - a minute whether the nippers were attached or not & nearly caused injury to trimmer on about 4 separate occasions. (As obviously having hold of foot when horse acting like about to fall over / is trying to suddenly bare full weight on a leg that’s in the air is not ideal) Couldn’t decide if he was unable to balance, sore somewhere (physio had a very brief look at him last week when on yard for another horse and thinks he’s maybe got muscle soreness in his back again but wanted to wait until after his vet visit to actually book him in to be treated, of course he could also be too sore on the other foot to take all his weight on it but that’s erm worrying), unable to focus on where his legs / feet were for some reason or something else. Actually better behind than in front which is odd in itself as I was having issues with him snatching his hinds up until last week.

Trimmer could not believe had passed a neuro exam the day before was that bad. (At one point when one leg was brought forward to put foot on the hoof stand he literally just went into a “bow” with both front legs at full hyperextension… obviously slamming down the foot that was trying to be placed on the stand in the process).

This is going to be a “fun” topic to bring up with my vet next week / Rainbow when they ring with full results on Monday as obviously a safety issue if we can’t figure out “why” and totally unfair to ask anyone to work on him.

In hindsight I’ve been having to put his feet down for a rest partway through packing his white line the last few times I’ve done it when I used to be able to do it all in one go (however separation currently worse than previous so presumed it was just cos I was taking longer). Today (after trim) it took about 4 stages on each foot. (But obviously the only “tool” I have is a blob of hoof stuff so it’s a lot easier for me to let go and get out of the way quickly)

 

[pistolpete]

Oh dear a highland in distress is not an easy beast! He really is worried about something! From all the fence smashing right at the start to still not being sound after all this time you’re being incredibly patient continuing. Many would have given up. What is he like on Bute for hoof care?

 

[pistolpete]

Send him to Nic?

 

[Boulty]

Send him to Nic?

Don’t think she’d take him with a “maybe” for EMS hanging over him as she doesn’t tend to take metabolic issues. (Was having this conversation with our mutual trimmer friend yesterday). Don’t get me wrong it’s floating around in the back of my mind & I may well email for thoughts but unsure that would be the right way forward right now (although the idea of him being someone else’s problem for 3 months does appeal!)

I would say the me having to give him breaks during stuff I was doing started when he was still on Bute. I don’t think it would be a goer as would make assessing how he’s moving more awkward and we really need to be able to do that pre & post trim atm. (But definitely a conversation to have). Previous trim was completed without incident whilst lame but not on Bute (whilst waiting for diagnostics)

Today (admittedly stood in the school to make things safer if I had to drop a leg suddenly & also to see if different on a slightly softer surface) can hold either front leg in a variety of positions for a reasonable amount of time with knee flexed back (although is slightly less comfortable if pulled away from body). Can extend forward but wants to still bear weight on the leg / seems unable to hold this position without doing so. Holds either hind leg relatively happily if flexed back (as if to pick foot out) but does not like bringing them forwards as if to place on a stand and tries to snatch them back.

 

[pistolpete]

He can’t be worked at the moment so I’d Bute and rest after trimming. Any way to get him moving at all? Loose school? Walk in hand?

 

[Boulty]

I never came back & updated this I realise.

Sooo there is inflammation of collateral ligaments and sidebone may or may not be impinging in some areas although these are not the most inflamed areas (which seem to be at the attachment points at the base inside the hoof capsule)



I’ll admit the MRI images hurt my brain but the CT ones are a bit easier to understand the boney stuff on.

We seem to have decided we only plait on one leg right now (make it make sense!)





Vet suggested bar shoes with many extensions & a spider plate which I have politely declined as quite apart from being sceptical that they’ll work I foresee the chances of them staying on his foot as less than zero.

It is currently felt he is not a candidate for Rockley (or anywhere similar) as the chances of success are perceived to be low, the chance of relapse high and there are concerns about how much actual rehab work he’d be able to do. And it’s a hell of a drive (for a horse with back issues) for such a pessimistic chance of success. (If we were talking 50:50 I’d be fighting to go for it but I think it’s more like 5% chance…). If opinion changes then I’ll re ask the question.

Have bought him some equine fusions as a stop gap (his old cavellos won’t take a pad anymore but I think next size up would be too big & fusions seem to come up a bit smaller on him) so we can escape walking circles of the arena but they’re not going to be a suitable long term solution as he stumbles in them (even though I can feel his toe near the end of them) and the right one is twisting a bit (although less stumbling occurs when it has twisted so perhaps he needs it like that?)

Am interested in the new scoot theraride but they don’t come big enough (& think they might need heat altering to make them not twist)

Am also vaguely thinking about the mass of composite options springing up if we can’t find a boot solution that works (but unsure how any of them would help with shock absorption with the way he lands the RF in particular unless we used them to successfully alter the landing)

Also sought the opinion of the same researcher that looked at the rather failed initial set of X-rays on the abnormal area. She speculates that may be a result of some sort of trauma and that it is potentially near some muscle attachment sites and so potentially is clinically significant if that is the case but difficult to see exactly where it’s located off just a lateral view and agrees with vet who took it that would need CT to be sure of exact location and significance (which I’m not keen to do due to requirement for GA and lack of actual treatment options)

 

[pistolpete]

Oh blimey. That is a lot! How is he in himself? Is he a happy chap? Do you think he’s in pain? Any different on Bute? Wonder for his future in any job even companion!

 

[ycbm]

The plaiting is very likely explained by the C6 abnormality, which your vet has mentioned. It will have made his whole body unstable since he was born if he was born that way and the attachment of his front legs to the rest of his skeleton are faulty. And we now know that many horses are born with C6/7 deformity, which is critically important when your front legs are only tied to the rest of your body with ligaments.

And he has so many problems with his feet, some of which are quite likely to have come from living with an unstable body.

I'm so, so sorry Boulty but unless you are certain that he's pain free in the field as a companion, I don't see that you have many options here. Horse owning can be so painful, I'm sorry you are at that place as well as so many other loving owners
.

 

[Boulty]

Oh blimey. That is a lot! How is he in himself? Is he a happy chap? Do you think he’s in pain? Any different on Bute? Wonder for his future in any job even companion!

That’s the problem he is VERY happy right now! If he wasn’t then it would make everything a bit easier. He’s not really companion material as he won’t stay on his own and can’t really just be chucked out in a field. (Only situation that might work is being a second companion to a couple of other fat / metabolic/ laminitic horses to stop one of them freaking out when other is taken away ooooor being babysitter to some youngsters on really crappy grazing on a moor or something… strangely nobody is lining up looking for a horse to do either of those jobs)

 

[JFTDWS]

I'm sorry this isn't better news. You've tried so hard to get to the bottom of his issues - and on a theoretical level, the MRI and CT are really interesting, thanks for sharing them - but on a horse and human level, this is pretty bleak. At least he's happy in himself, and he has an owner who's got his back. He's a very lucky boy.

 

[Boulty]

The plaiting is very likely explained by the C6 abnormality, which your vet has mentioned. It will have made his whole body unstable since he was born if he was born that way and the attachment of his front legs to the rest of his skeleton are faulty. And we now know that many horses are born with C6/7 deformity, which is critically important when your front legs are only tied to the rest of your body with ligaments.

And he has so many problems with his feet, some of which are quite likely to have come from living with an unstable body.

I'm so, so sorry Boulty but unless you are certain that he's pain free in the field as a companion, I don't see that you have many options here. Horse owning can be so painful, I'm sorry you are at that place as well as soon many other loving owners
.

You know this, I know this… the vets are reluctant to A acknowledge that he plaits and that it’s abnormal & B attach any significance to what’s been found unless I have a CT scan done to “prove” it & even then if it’s not pressing on a nerve I believe they’ll still try to say it’s not significant. (although we don’t necessarily think he was born like this, we think he’s done something idiotic & unwitnessed which has caused trauma as I swear when I bought the idiot and for at least the time period until he got chucked off the first yard I had him on he did move & land straight)

Vets (any of them that have been involved so far) are not supportive of PTS at all right now. I think the vets that I used to use probably would have been but they got bought out & stopped doing equine. (I miss them!)

As I said above he’s extremely bright and happy right now and is still playing, nicking anything not nailed down and joining in when everyone else has a mad 5 minutes so I guess I keep doing enough inhand walking to try and stop him putting any more weight on and wait for things to deteriorate to point that vet will agree with PTS (Which I think will happen at some point in next few years) & keep as comfortable as possible in meantime.

 

[JFTDWS]

It's your call about his future. Vets may not advise it, or will say "we're not there yet" or similar things when asked - but they aren't the ones on the ground day to day, and they should respect that.

That said, it's also fine if, for now, you want to keep your furry pet and enjoy the comedy he brings to your life. I'm not suggesting one route or the other - just that both routes should be open to you, regardless of how the vets are talking.

 

[maya2008]

Is his current happiness on Bute?

You can pts via hunt/Equine End of Life service at whatever time you think is best for him - when his quality of life is no longer as it should be. You absolutely do not have to wait until he is so miserable the vets will agree.

 

[Boulty]

It's your call about his future. Vets may not advise it, or will say "we're not there yet" or similar things when asked - but they aren't the ones on the ground day to day, and they should respect that.

That said, it's also fine if, for now, you want to keep your furry pet and enjoy the comedy he brings to your life. I'm not suggesting one route or the other - just that both routes should be open to you, regardless of how the vets are talking.

It’s awkward because it has been a bit of a rollercoaster with a lot of guesswork going on and a lot of differing opinions.

Vets want him in work (mainly for weight reasons & it probably would be the best thing for hocks & back in fairness) & are convinced current level of soundness ok for that despite being lame on a hard surface (admittedly they only think he’s significantly lame in trot whereas I class him as also being lame in walk). They are also convinced that if only I put remedial shoes on him it will (possibly magically?) fix things. (Cos metal’s a great natural shock absorber riiiight?) They think the thing we’ve found on X-ray probably not likely to be significant.

Trimmer does not think a significant improvement in how he lands is possible and isn’t comfortable doing anything too drastic to foot balance as feels it will make things worse. He’s convinced that the thing we can see on X-ray is why he moves as he does. He would totally support me if I did decide to PTS, but he’s currently the only IRL person who would I think.

The person who gave me the 2nd opinion is not a vet, but someone heavily involved with ECVM research with a very good knowledge of the anatomy of that area of the neck who has looked at hundreds / thousands of neck X-rays in the course of that and offers to do so in return for hair samples of anything that does turn out to have the malformation for research purposes. This makes it unlikely my vet would view her interpretation in better light / with more weight than the advice from the referral hospital that took the images.

Physio due to see him next week but she’s not seen since Jan as she wouldn’t touch again until after neck X-rays & then had nearly a month wait for an appointment. I don’t suspect she will be supportive of PTS as she’s a “fixer” (but she may surprise me)

There’s also the yard politics element of if I PTS against vet advice & the method I’d have to use if I did that.

I’ve done PTS against popular opinion before and had a fair bit of backlash / offers to buy the horse etc and I’m not sure I’m currently in the right headspace to deal with that if I don’t have strong backing from professionals. (In that case I had 2 vets, trimmer & physio I was using at the time all saying it was the best option which made it easier to deal with the fallout. I also never intended to go back to that yard whereas I don’t want to completely cut ties with this one. I was also very sure in my own head that horse was “ready” whereas I’m not sure this one currently is)

 

[Gloi]

You'll find he'll probably plait less if he loses weight.

 

[Boulty]

Is his current happiness on Bute?

You can pts via hunt/Equine End of Life service at whatever time you think is best for him - when his quality of life is no longer as it should be. You absolutely do not have to wait until he is so miserable the vets will agree.

Not currently on Bute, no. He’s had alpha 2 into hock & coffin joints which admittedly has improved comfort levels from where they were. When he was last on Bute it did not improve landing or plaiting (but had a similar effect on overall comfort to Alpha 2)

 

[pistolpete]

Maybe slapping shoes on will make a difference one way or the other! It’s a pretty grim situation for you. I really feel for you. The glue ons or composite shoes should be my choice I think.

 

[JFTDWS]

It’s awkward because it has been a bit of a rollercoaster with a lot of guesswork going on and a lot of differing opinions.

Vets want him in work (mainly for weight reasons & it probably would be the best thing for hocks & back in fairness) & are convinced current level of soundness ok for that despite being lame on a hard surface (admittedly they only think he’s significantly lame in trot whereas I class him as also being lame in walk). They are also convinced that if only I put remedial shoes on him it will (possibly magically?) fix things. (Cos metal’s a great natural shock absorber riiiight?) They think the thing we’ve found on X-ray probably not likely to be significant.

Trimmer does not think a significant improvement in how he lands is possible and isn’t comfortable doing anything too drastic to foot balance as feels it will make things worse. He’s convinced that the thing we can see on X-ray is why he moves as he does. He would totally support me if I did decide to PTS, but he’s currently the only IRL person who would I think.

The person who gave me the 2nd opinion is not a vet, but someone heavily involved with ECVM research with a very good knowledge of the anatomy of that area of the neck who has looked at hundreds / thousands of neck X-rays in the course of that and offers to do so in return for hair samples of anything that does turn out to have the malformation for research purposes. This makes it unlikely my vet would view her interpretation in better light / with more weight than the advice from the referral hospital that took the images.

Physio due to see him next week but she’s not seen since Jan as she wouldn’t touch again until after neck X-rays & then had nearly a month wait for an appointment. I don’t suspect she will be supportive of PTS as she’s a “fixer” (but she may surprise me)

There’s also the yard politics element of if I PTS against vet advice & the method I’d have to use if I did that.

I’ve done PTS against popular opinion before and had a fair bit of backlash / offers to buy the horse etc and I’m not sure I’m currently in the right headspace to deal with that if I don’t have strong backing from professionals. (In that case I had 2 vets, trimmer & physio I was using at the time all saying it was the best option which made it easier to deal with the fallout. I also never intended to go back to that yard whereas I don’t want to completely cut ties with this one. I was also very sure in my own head that horse was “ready” whereas I’m not sure this one currently is)

Yea, I get that - it's why I said I wasn't suggesting you should. It's never simple, and it's hard to navigate a path between what's best for the horse, best for you, and everyone else's opinion and the pressure that puts on you. And other people's opinions shouldn't matter - in some ways they don't - but they have consequences and you have to consider them. No easy answers.

So, we should pray for a miracle for you!

 

[Boulty]

Maybe slapping shoes on will make a difference one way or the other! It’s a pretty grim situation for you. I really feel for you. The glue ons or composite shoes should be my choice I think.

Yeah I think that would be the route I’d take if I did decide to try that road as I feel like part of the reason for wanting something on there would be to soften the negative effects of landing & breaking over on totally the wrong part of his foot & I just don’t see how metal will achieve that / I just don’t see how he wouldn’t repeatedly pull off what vet has described as he does stand on himself multiple times a day and I worry about what damage he’d do whilst he’s at it (And he may do this to composites tbf). Also metal shoes aren’t really compatible with track life anyhow. I think it would be a “try it for a few cycles & if it doesn’t help take it off again” type of thing if we did decide to do it. Still vastly undecided on how wise an idea this would be though

 

[pistolpete]

Yeah I think that would be the route I’d take if I did decide to try that road as I feel like part of the reason for wanting something on there would be to soften the negative effects of landing & breaking over on totally the wrong part of his foot & I just don’t see how metal will achieve that / I just don’t see how he wouldn’t repeatedly pull off what vet has described as he does stand on himself multiple times a day and I worry about what damage he’d do whilst he’s at it (And he may do this to composites tbf). Also metal shoes aren’t really compatible with track life anyhow. I think it would be a “try it for a few cycles & if it doesn’t help take it off again” type of thing if we did decide to do it. Still vastly undecided on how wise an idea this would be though

He’s a puzzle that’s for sure!

 

[Boulty]

He’s a puzzle that’s for sure!

This is going to sound incredibly morbid but if and when the time does come I’d really like a dissection or PM doing on him to try and make sense of it all / give some closure (suspect dissection more cost effective). I’ve never felt that about any other animal I’ve owned but he’s so blooming weird…

 

[pistolpete]

This is going to sound incredibly morbid but if and when the time does come I’d really like a dissection or PM doing on him to try and make sense of it all / give some closure (suspect dissection more cost effective). I’ve never felt that about any other animal I’ve owned but he’s so blooming weird…

Not weird. Becca said same about my Pete who she thought would be very interesting opened up! He definitely had the c6 c7 issue. Feet got really good though after Rockley.