For Those Who Moan About Dressage Judging

[Gamebird]

Today I went to the BD National Judges' Convention. I am not a judge. I have not even competed BD in the last 4 months or so. I do however have a very broad-ranging interest in all the equestrian competitive disciplines.

We saw four Nov horses, two at Medium, two at PSG and two at GP. The horses at each level were a mix of green and established. The convention was taken by Stephen Clarke and the format was in general that each horse demonstrated a test at the appropriate level whilst Stephen judged, giving his comments and marks out loud. At the end of each test we awarded the collectives collectively (apt). This was the really interesting bit. Out of a large audience, predominately of judges, the marks awarded were surprisingly uniform. In most cases there was an obvious mark that each combination should be awarded. Stephen, who is arguably the top judge in the country, generally agreed with the consensus of an audience consisting of every level from trainee judge upwards.

It was utterly apparent that judges, as a body, are pretty consistent in marks awarded between judges, across the board and all the way up the levels. They want to reward absolutely correct training, riding and accuracy. They WANT to give you marks. If you wish to throw marks away there is little they can do to help you.

Every comment I saw and heard was utterly fair and deserved (and we had horses scoring from 50 - 78% today). Where riders lost marks was obvious and apparent to all. I learned bucketloads, not least an increased understanding of, and respect for, the judging process.

For all those of you who moan - broaden your horizons. Play judges at their own game. Get out and learn exactly how they mark and what they want to see in a test. See how you can start a movement as a 7 but fail to finish it correctly and throw that mark down the drain. Make the most of opportunities to look at tests from the other side the car windscreen. Most of all make sure your basics are in place and are correct.

I was thrilled that my eye was pretty close to some of the best in the country, and gutted that I left without finding a way to sneak Henriette Andersen's amazing PSG horse into my car boot. I would recommend it to anyone.

 

[anna22]

Really interesting thread thank you! I am far too inexperienced to comment on my judges comments but I rarely come out disagreeing. They know what they're looking for!

 

[meardsall_millie]

Yup. I was there too and came away having learnt a lot and am completely inspired.

I'm actually training to be a judge - not necessarily because I desperately want to judge but because I want to be the best dressage rider that I possibly can and what better way than to learn what the judge is looking for?! I have learnt so much during my training so far and would completely echo what GB has said.

The other thing is that yes, we saw some fabulously well bred horses (two of which I think will be future contenders on the international circuit) but we also saw several 'ordinary' horses that had been trained correctly and were entirely capable of 8's and 9's in their tests. I will certainly not accept the 'must have a big flashy warmblood to do well' comment (not that I ever did!!).

 

[shortstuff99]

I was there too! Lol I thought it was really interesting and has given me tips to work on at home with mine

 

[Valo]

A really interesting post. Thanks for sharing. Has strengthened my resolve even more to do some writing for the judge to try and learn a bit more from the other side.

 

[Laafet]

I wholeheartedly agree with OP. The best thing anyone can do, is to write for a judge, you get a lot better understanding of what they see and what they want. Admittedly there is one judge in my area who varies so much in what she awards from one competition to the next, but she is the same for everyone so you just have to take that one on the chin. BD have worked really hard with judge training to try to create a consistency of judging and it shows when you go unaffiliated and come up against someone who does not keep up with their training, if they are trained at all. Dressage is far more 'fair' than showing IMO, it will always be someone's opinion of what they see on the day. I train with a BD list judge who also competes at PSG with a non-warmblood type and her help on 'ring craft' has been crucial in raising my scores.

 

[Gamebird]

Yup. I was there too and came away having learnt a lot and am completely inspired.

Ditto. I suspect the poor dobbin will be shoehorned into the dressage saddle and double bridle tomorrow. I am determined to move out of my M69 comfort zone and try M75. It looked like a really nice test. And the crusade to lose 2st, develop abs and look like a 'proper' dressage rider will also start... tomorrow

 

[meardsall_millie]

Hmmm 3st for me - I'm on a mission to be able to tuck my top into my breeches (and be able to be seen in public after doing it!).

Btw - it was Goodmans Supernova into the car boot for me but I suspect the boot lid wouldn't shut because his ears were so big!

 

[khalswitz]

I get very confused by dressage judging - not abject disagreement because I admit I don't know enough, but I do get confused. I also struggle sometimes to turn comments into training - for example when horse goes well at home, but is tense in the ring, and comments are 'TENSE', I struggle a bit to see a way to work through this in training.

It's definitely very interesting that so many judges seemed to agree on marks, that's very reassuring. However, also slightly depressing. Now I can't blame the judge...

However point about doing writing for judges, or going to judge training days, is VERY good, and I will have to try and do that to get a better idea of what to aim for.

 

[Kat]

Very interesting thread -thank you!

I really must write for judges more often, and try some judge training even if I don't intend actually judging any time soon!

 

[Chirmapops]

I get very confused by dressage judging - not abject disagreement because I admit I don't know enough, but I do get confused. I also struggle sometimes to turn comments into training - for example when horse goes well at home, but is tense in the ring, and comments are 'TENSE', I struggle a bit to see a way to work through this in training.

They're looking for more softness through the back and neck, so think about how you can keep your contact soft and elastic with a nice forward mentality (not rushing). It also might be that your rhythm is suffering because of tension, so maybe try counting or singing to yourself as you go round. Of course, the judge can't fit all that in the box in the 20 seconds they have to look, process and speak to the writer!

 

[meardsall_millie]

Of course, the judge can't fit all that in the box in the 20 seconds they have to look, process and speak to the writer!

Exactly - and remember the judge is not there to train you, just to mark what they see on the day and to highlight areas which are good and those which need to be improved to earn better marks. It's the riders job (with their trainer) to work out how to do this!

 

[khalswitz]

They're looking for more softness through the back and neck, so think about how you can keep your contact soft and elastic with a nice forward mentality (not rushing). It also might be that your rhythm is suffering because of tension, so maybe try counting or singing to yourself as you go round. Of course, the judge can't fit all that in the box in the 20 seconds they have to look, process and speak to the writer!

Ah. See, that makes sense. Thank you.

I can well understand that judges are trying to be quick and concise, I'm just a noob at dressage still so do find myself befuddled quite a lot - especially when looking at how a test felt versus how it scored (and collectives!! I always seem to end up with my collectives WAAAY lower than my marks for movements, which confuses me further, as I thought they were meant to be roughly the same?).

However the idea of going along and finding out what judges are looking for is a very good one that I can't believe never occurred to me... once we finally suss out what on earth we're aiming for we might get somewhere

 

[humblepie]

Echo that writing for judges can be very educational. Thanks for the report. Did have one the other week where I watched a horse and was very surprised at the mark it got for a test with quite a lot of mistakes in it but that is one of the things about dressage that you can get good marks and bad marks within one test and if more good than bad end up with a higher score than something that is more just generally average throughout.

 

[Chirmapops]

(and collectives!! I always seem to end up with my collectives WAAAY lower than my marks for movements, which confuses me further, as I thought they were meant to be roughly the same?).

That does sound odd - the collectives should reflect the marks throughout the test. I find they correlate a lot better when I ride affiliated - that's the benefit of having trained judges! However if your problem is tension it can hammer your submission mark a bit which is a bit frustrating until you have been out a bit more and can relax. I'd highly recommend volunteering to write at your local show centre. You don't get to watch entire tests, as your handwriting has to be legible obviously (!), but what you do see is always useful and it''s a real insight into judges' thinking.

 

[HuggyBear]

Can I add my hat to the ring about encouraging writing for dressage judges? I have written a couple of times during the dressage phase of eventing competitions (that use accredited BD judges)- From Intro to CCI- just picking up tips off them really gave me a better (and simpler insight).

 

[khalswitz]

That does sound odd - the collectives should reflect the marks throughout the test. I find they correlate a lot better when I ride affiliated - that's the benefit of having trained judges! However if your problem is tension it can hammer your submission mark a bit which is a bit frustrating until you have been out a bit more and can relax. I'd highly recommend volunteering to write at your local show centre. You don't get to watch entire tests, as your handwriting has to be legible obviously (!), but what you do see is always useful and it''s a real insight into judges' thinking.

That would make sense - I was so confused as to why they would be so different. Even at our first affiliated tests at weekend our collectives were down at the 56 or so mark with movements at 62 or so, so we averaged out with 60s overall. But it was generally correct just tense (and worse than usual at the weekend as he needed to pee! Hindsight, eh) so maybe that's why...

 

[leflynn]

Great post and another advocate for doing a bit of dressage writing, not only do you help events and riders but you learn masses and all those I have written for have been patient and kind enough to explain why they gave what they gave and what people commonly do wrong in tests. It's a real eye opener to watch a test from that angle too

 

[Orangehorse]

I think it is essential for anyone who competes at dressage to be a writer. At least you can see the obvious mistakes and make a resolution not to do the same thing yourself! An enthusiastic judge will even give the writer a bit of a lesson on dressage judging, if there is time. Some judges like lots of remarks so you can hardly lift your head from the paper, but you have to put up with that.

Obvious things include not being straight down the centre line, inaccurate circles, looking down and unsteady hands.

Interesting post OP, sounds a really good day.

 

[Gamebird]

But it was generally correct just tense.

Ah, but if the judge is assessing what they see then more than likely the tenseness will affect the rhythm, suppleness, contact, impulsion, throughness, submission, engagement etc etc so you lose out for every movement then you lose out again (heavily) in the collectives

 

[TarrSteps]

I was going to say the same as Orangehorse - I've found most judges to be really helpful and engaging about their thought process. One of the most interesting things I've done was 'host' a panel of judges for a CDI, so drove them around, ate meals with them etc and was included in some great discussions about the horses they'd seen and dressage in general. One conversation particularly stuck in my mind and has gone a long way to shaping my own altitudes towards training.

Not that it needs saying again but judges want to give you the marks! It's the most frustrating thing when someone starts a movement well and you think you're looking at a 7 or better then it falls apart at the last second. I always want to bang my head on the desk/steering wheel at that point!

Re education, that's what a trainer is for. Even if you are pleased with your usual training, it's worth going to a 'test specialist' or test riding clinic a few times for fresh eyes on your ringcraft.

 

[almostthere]

I do as much dressage writing at BE as is possible and learn a lot each time. I also know for a fact that they want to give the mark as the movement that my mare completed the other day had a 7 clearly marked and then rubbed out and replaced with a 2 as she proceeded to rear inexplicably 3 x!

 

[khalswitz]

Ah, but if the judge is assessing what they see then more than likely the tenseness will affect the rhythm, suppleness, contact, impulsion, throughness, submission, engagement etc etc so you lose out for every movement then you lose out again (heavily) in the collectives

This is very true. He is generally quite good at engaging these days (used to get a lot of forehand comments but not any more), but gets tense in the shoulders and neck, which does affect the suppleness and the forwardness and can throw up contact problems on bad days. I understand that this will affect every movement, but didn't realise the collectives would be penalised even more heavily. Lots to think about - definitely need to do some writing... Some events coming up I had offered to help at (thinking fence judging) but may ask if I can dressage write instead!!

 

[Ferdinase514]

I get very confused by dressage judging - not abject disagreement because I admit I don't know enough, but I do get confused. I also struggle sometimes to turn comments into training - for example when horse goes well at home, but is tense in the ring, and comments are 'TENSE', I struggle a bit to see a way to work through this in training.

That is where you need to train for submission - not just a home but at a competition too.

 

[Ferdinase514]

Today I went to the BD National Judges' Convention. I am not a judge. I have not even competed BD in the last 4 months or so. I do however have a very broad-ranging interest in all the equestrian competitive disciplines.

We saw four Nov horses, two at Medium, two at PSG and two at GP. The horses at each level were a mix of green and established. The convention was taken by Stephen Clarke and the format was in general that each horse demonstrated a test at the appropriate level whilst Stephen judged, giving his comments and marks out loud. At the end of each test we awarded the collectives collectively (apt). This was the really interesting bit. Out of a large audience, predominately of judges, the marks awarded were surprisingly uniform. In most cases there was an obvious mark that each combination should be awarded. Stephen, who is arguably the top judge in the country, generally agreed with the consensus of an audience consisting of every level from trainee judge upwards.

It was utterly apparent that judges, as a body, are pretty consistent in marks awarded between judges, across the board and all the way up the levels. They want to reward absolutely correct training, riding and accuracy. They WANT to give you marks. If you wish to throw marks away there is little they can do to help you.

Every comment I saw and heard was utterly fair and deserved (and we had horses scoring from 50 - 78% today). Where riders lost marks was obvious and apparent to all. I learned bucketloads, not least an increased understanding of, and respect for, the judging process.

For all those of you who moan - broaden your horizons. Play judges at their own game. Get out and learn exactly how they mark and what they want to see in a test. See how you can start a movement as a 7 but fail to finish it correctly and throw that mark down the drain. Make the most of opportunities to look at tests from the other side the car windscreen. Most of all make sure your basics are in place and are correct.

I was thrilled that my eye was pretty close to some of the best in the country, and gutted that I left without finding a way to sneak Henriette Andersen's amazing PSG horse into my car boot. I would recommend it to anyone.

Really interesting - thank you for reporting on it. Sad i couldn't go

I promise I am ALWAYS trying to give as many marks as I can, but can still only mark what is in front of me. I will happily go from a 10 to a 2 in a test if need to

Most common thing i see is lack of suppleness, tightness through the back. Seem to write endless collective comments on this....

 

[TarrSteps]

Really interesting - thank you for reporting on it. Sad i couldn't go

I promise I am ALWAYS trying to give as many marks as I can, but can still only mark what is in front of me. I will happily go from a 10 to a 2 in a test if need to

Most common thing i see is lack of suppleness, tightness through the back. Seem to write endless collective comments on this....

And things like inaccuracy or wildly shaped circles, which have nothing to do with how much the horse cost. Although those aspects do owe a lot to ridabiliry - it's almost impossible to be accurate on a horse you can't steer! So a tense horse will almost certainly lose in those areas as well.

 

[Jango]

Really interesting thread thanks for posting I agree the judges want to see you do well, at affiliated level I've had a few tests where I thought the judge was marking us harshly, until I showed my instructor who agreed with the judge and helped explain the errors more fully and give us exercises to make improvements! I've wrote for unaffiliated quite a bit but I need to volunteer for some BD test writing, thanks for the kick up the bum!