For your info - buyer beware article

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voicesforhorses

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For some this will not be a new story, for others it may just help raise awareness. The article also includes some video footage of a UK equine market, the likes of which I know some of you will have experienced but for others it will show an unknown area of equine trade in the UK. The footage is not intended to be graphic. It is intended for awareness.

http://www.voicesforhorses.co.uk/news/re...-beware%21.html
Thank you
Emma
 
Hi. I feel sorry for the person involved in this matter......but why would anybody even contemplate buying a horse without seeing it or getting a friend to go and see it ? The other option would have been got a vet to go and vet the animal and then taken things from there.

I wouldn't dream of parting with such a large amount of money for something I had never set eyes on..and I wouldn't sell something on the same basis either.
 
Initially it can be hard to see why someone would acquire anything (children’s toys - sun bed – dog – house - car - etc) un seen but then you just have to look at today’s culture of buying on line and willingness to part with money to buy anything and everything this way, to see how people have got caught up in this kind of mind set making it easy for unscrupulous traders/sellers to just lay in wait. They are the ones in the wrong. You do not even have to buy a horse unseen to be caught out. You can do everything you can to believe you are protecting your self and still be conned. This is why awareness of what can go wrong is so important and why owners need to be encouraged to admit they may have been naive and tell their story to help raise awareness.

You mention you would not sell anything ‘this way’ and it is a very good point. In my opinion a seller who cares about a horse and the buyer would insist they meet. I believe it should be the person who will own the horse but at the very least their vet and or close knowledgeable friend.
Emma
 
I was aware of this case and the following one regarding a lady who won hers against bombproof I think.
I'm a little puzzled re the video, I haven't watched it right to the end but it is a typical horse sale.
If I could change things I would insist all horses have bedding down of some description and food and water available in every pen.
I loathe seeing them under stress as many are in the video, but you need to make small changes first. Most of the ponies in the film (was it Hatherleigh by the way?)
were in good condition just very very upset.
If the market owners could be made to put a bed down it would make things better for starters, and every animal should have water and hay when in a pen.
I think you should explain what the chap was doing when he appeared to be smacking the horses, in fact he was putting a glue number on to identify them, but you don't say that!.
I admire anyone trying to improve things, but compared to how sales used to be when the dealers all whacked every horse as it went in and out of the ring with a big stick and beat the horses in and out of their lorries, things are a lot better believe me!
I'd welcome some explanation of what the film was supposed to prove to be honest. (will watch to the end later, no time now)
 
I really really like your website
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I agree with you Henryhorn, I saw nothing particularly wrong with the video from the sales, yes it would be better if they had bedding etc, but the horses all looked to be in a reasonable condition. I had problems with my internet so didn't watch it to the end. Sales are not nice and I do feel sorry for those horses that end up there which is why I would never be any good selling horses for a living as you can never tell where they'll end up.
As for the other bit, I think that the deterioation in the standards of horsecare and knowledge is to blame. I am not that old but when I was a teenager, having a horse was a major expense that not many could afford so most of us horsey girls worked in riding schools or competition yards. This gave us more experience so that when we did own a horse we had a fair idea of what to do. Sadly with H & S and the decline in Riding Schools, horses are far too easy to purchase and this is where places like bombproof capitalise. I would never buy a horse unseen unless is was through a trusted contact and would be very wary of these claims of 14 day trial etc.
 
burtondog - I totally agree with you. Buying sight unseen sounds like madness. The thing is though, I did just that 6 months ago and I ended up with the best pony I have ever had. I did have it 5 stage vetted though and the vet said that it was a super pony.

I also bought a horse privately and I asked all the right questions, tried it twice in the arena and hacked it out once. It seemed great but when I got it home it was a nightmare. I had it professionally re-schooled twice but no-one could do a thing with it. The moral of the story is - no matter how much you do things "by the book" you can always get caught out by a practised con man or woman.
 
I'm not saying that you always have to go and see a horse in person, but if you're able to you should, and if you're unable for whatever reason you should at least have a representative check the horse on your behalf, instructor, agent, vet or even a friend with a decent amount of experience.

A good vet will be able to give you an idea of the horse's suitability or at the very least be able to confirm their age !!! How many times do we hear "sold as a 12 year old turned out to be nearer 20" - IMHO if you can't tell the difference yourself OR don't have the sense to ask someone who can then perhaps you shouldn't be buying a horse.
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Hi henryhorn,

The video is not trying to prove anything. It is just what it is - a market in the UK. Some are better and I totally agree that things have improved. The majority of the horses were in fair to good condition which is great and if something is good I will show it. I did not cut footage because the horse looked too well – the work I do is about the truth. And yes you are right the man was putting a lot number on the horse - not smacking it, but the horse did not know what the man was trying to do which added to its anxiety - and it is the conditions for the horses we are looking at. If you do get to the end of the film which is more of the same it asks for people to comment, so I thank you for sharing your views.

The reason I decided to add the video is to start to raise long term awareness and video helps. People are great at responding to situations that gain media attention and that is good, but as anyone who works in welfare will know it is not enough when trying to make long term positive differences to equine welfare. Agree or disagree with it it has got people taking, and I believe that is a very good thing.

Hi laafet - I am really interested in what people find acceptable or not and appreciate your comments.

Thank you Paddywhack
Emma
 
Ditto Henryhorn.

Yes, it would be nice to see bedding and water for the horses, but imho, it is no different from horses being tied to lorries or trailers for hours on end at shows.
 
I dont think the sales video could have upsest even a child. It loooked clean, the horses were in good condition and not over-crowded.
As for the gentleman who bought unseen, Im sorry but if you are going to do that you are asking for trouble. You wouldnt buy a car without seeing it so why a horse?
 
Things HAVE changed...for the better..

there was only one thing to pick up on...lack of something underfoot..which incidently is for a VENDOR to organise, NOT the venue of sale..

and i can't really see how the market workers can possibly put a sale sticker on the ass of a pony, which are 99% unhandled in adifferent manner?
confused.gif


i for one wouldnt like that job..with a serious chance of getting a kicking..


as for the idiot who bought un-tried, un-seen etc...idiot, what did he expect??
 
[ QUOTE ]
I wanted to say he was an idiot but didnt have ther balls lol

[/ QUOTE ]


i've always said what i think...for a long while now...hence my siggy!!
tongue.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
Initially it can be hard to see why someone would acquire anything (children’s toys - sun bed – dog – house - car - etc) un seen but then you just have to look at today’s culture of buying on line and willingness to part with money to buy anything and everything this way, to see how people have got caught up in this kind of mind set making it easy for unscrupulous traders/sellers to just lay in wait. They are the ones in the wrong. You do not even have to buy a horse unseen to be caught out. You can do everything you can to believe you are protecting your self and still be conned. This is why awareness of what can go wrong is so important and why owners need to be encouraged to admit they may have been naive and tell their story to help raise awareness.

You mention you would not sell anything ‘this way’ and it is a very good point. In my opinion a seller who cares about a horse and the buyer would insist they meet. I believe it should be the person who will own the horse but at the very least their vet and or close knowledgeable friend.
Emma

[/ QUOTE ]

I am sorry, but ANY semi experienced horseperson would not dream of buying a horse unseen off the internet, it is especially silly when you are suffering from a debilitating progressive desease like MS. The people who do buy unseen seem to forget that horses are living creatures and not objects. I feel very sorry for this guy but imho he and his wife were misguided at best and thoroughly stupid at worst. They compounded their stupidity by not having any of the horses vetted.

I am not condoning the abhorent practices of parasites like the people running Bomb Proof, but have to say I feel more sorry for the horses they sell than the people buying them.

As for the sales video, cannot comment - was unable to play it on my stupid computer, but I tend to trust JM07 as she has first hand knowledge of these sales, if she says it was not that bad, then I, for one, would believe her.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Things HAVE changed...for the better..

there was only one thing to pick up on...lack of something underfoot..which incidently is for a VENDOR to organise, NOT the venue of sale..

and i can't really see how the market workers can possibly put a sale sticker on the ass of a pony, which are 99% unhandled in adifferent manner?
confused.gif


i for one wouldnt like that job..with a serious chance of getting a kicking..


as for the idiot who bought un-tried, un-seen etc...idiot, what did he expect??

[/ QUOTE ]

JM07 is the (second) best HHO user!!
 
I watched the video, and the page you linked to.

The video shows a very normal lower end auction or sale, yes there should be access to hay and water, yes there should be bedding on the ground - but I didn't see anything that surprised me. As long as people continue to purchase from these places they will continue to exist.

As for the unfortunate chap who bought a horse unseen - I think if you are trying to make a case for licensing of traders then using the example of somebody who was begging to be had over is not the best start.
 
Is it fair to judge people - call them stupid, idiots etc when they have come forward to publicize their mistakes and in doing so help raise awareness for others? What ever name calling the contributes to this thread deem appropriate there are others who without reading such stories will make the same mistake, be naive, trusting etc. The dealers trading names it could be argued were chosen specifically to mislead. A specific market consumer was targeted and it worked.

This owner is not an isolated case and there is a choice – brand the victims as ‘idiots’ and turn away knowing you would never make the same mistake, perhaps even believing the owner got his just deserts - or highlight the serious exploitation problems (of owners and equines) in the industry and work to make changes to help safe guard owners and equines in the future?

Mother hen you said “I think if you are trying to make a case for licensing of traders then using the example of somebody who was begging to be had over is not the best start.”

I am not trying to make a case – it exists - Voices for Horses acts on what our members and the public ask us to do. This article just lets people know a petition exists if they want to sign it. We a long way on from the start.

A few of you have mentioned there should be hay, water and bedding, so are any of you involved in working to wards this happening or finding/promoting safer (for horse and human) ways of putting lot numbers on un handled equines? If so I would be delighted to hear from you.
Emma
 
well i think if they bought the horse unseen, untried and unvetted then they were asking to be had.

As for the auction, i cant see much wrong with it, the bedding, hay and water is upto the seller to organise not the auction house.
I've bought 5 horses/ponies from auctions, got 4 absolutely brilliant ones that i could not have afforded to buy privately and asside from a few minor issues (that i knew about before biding) they have been wonderful, got one bad one he was dopes to the eyeballs and turned into a loon when the drugs wore off, i sold him to a proffesional rebreaker down the road from me and she turned him round and he is now a lovely horse.
 
Its not fair to call them idiots, for sure, maybe hopelessly naive and ill-advised - but whatever were they thinking?? I wouldn't pay £4k for a car sight unseen, hell, i wouldn't even buy a t-shirt off the internet if there wasn't at least a picture of it.

Surely before you enter into a huge purchase of this nature, you do at least SOME research? If they knew enough to search for a horse on the internet, surely they must have stumbled across a few horsy websites. If I type "buying a horse" into Google, the first hit is a document from the Horse Trust that states as clear as day on the very first page "Consulting with a person who has good equine knowledge and lots of experience is essential". Evidently these people did not do that. Did they not have a riding instructor who could have helped them in their search? Surely a partially disabled individual would have been MORE careful about selecting a horse, not less.

Don't get me wrong, i am very glad those shysters at Bombproof or lazyplods or whatever else they called themselves have taken a caning, but I also think the onus is on prospective owners to educate themselves before splashing out such a huge amount of money on a pig in a poke.
 
i believe the person in question was/is an idiot and acted stupidly.....

and yes the lady who sold him the horse was underhand.....she certainly saw him coming...

but the buck stops with him though..... i mean how totally naive and irresponsible of him to think he could buy a living breathing creature and one as large as this UNSEEN!!!

as i said, idiotic..would he go out a buy a large Scania Truck and Trailer..and drive it..WITHOUT advice..i don't see any difference between the two .....

crazy..
crazy.gif
 
The fact that this man publicised his mistake does not make him any less of an idiot. If people are prepared to buy animals this way, then what chance of them having sufficient knowledge and experience of looking after the animal when they get them home?
I find the idea of buying any expensive purchase of secondhand goods over the internet unseen ridiculous.
 
QR Tbh for what it is worth I feel very sorry for the guy and his wife.
I had been watching the dealings of the dealers in question for a while as I researched horse sales for nearly 2 years before I got mine. Basically to see what was out there, how good they were ( horses) and what the average price was as I had a strict budget to stick to.
I was put off this particular dealer by the prices they were charging for animals that were in no way special by any means. Personally I thought that paying around £4,000 to £5,000 or so for a cob was extortion. But each to their own I suppose. If I had considered buying from these people though I would have visited and seen the animals for myself.
I think trust is too often abused by people these days more than ever. There are people out there who want to make money at the expense of others and this is especially true of some horse dealers. Yes they may be good ones ( like JM07 for instance) but there are also those I wouldn't even give a penny to let alone a few thousand.
I think these people in the story put too much trust in the sellers to be honest. Naive perhaps, idiotic no I don't believe so. Ok so maybe I am not talking thousands or about livestock but look at popular auction sites like ebay for instance. How many thousands of people buy from sellers on that site each day? Parting with hard earned cash and placing trust in the seller. Buying an item just by seeing a photo and a short description. How many people actually go to view an item before bidding, even the larger and more expensive items. Are they all considered idiots. Even the ones that buy cars or vehicles in that manner for instance?
Yes horses may be different but why should a person necessarily fear they are going to be ripped off by a dealer selling horses? If they had been sent videos etc and hadn't heard a bad word spoken about the dealer beforehand why should they think they are not going to receive a horse that is any different to its description or video?
I reiterate that imo I would have checked out both the horse and dealer in person before parting with that amount of cash. But we are all different. Yes they made a mistake. A huge one by all accounts but lets not forget that the ones who were largely at fault here were the dealers. They had a duty to sell an animal honestly which by all accounts they patently failed to do in this case.
So why apportion all the blame to the buyer? Yes they made a mistake, but who is more responsible for the whole mess really? Personally I blame the dealer. Sorry but an excuse of they 'saw someone coming' is really not acceptable to me. Buyers are not there to be 'had'. For gawd sake where is all the decency and honesty disappearing to in this unscrupulous world?

With regard to the video yes I agree the horse and ponies looked to have good body scores but many were distressed and I find that unacceptable. I have seen horses first hand being terrified to even leave a box as they had literally been brought from the field to the sale and that was at an otherwise respectable sale at Leominster!
At Beeston I have seen horses terrified in the ring. A friend even witnessed cruelty to one youngster that was actually sat on by its handlers
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Hay and water should be the very minimum provided to equines at sales. The owners, dealers whoever they are should have a responsibility to their animals. Bedding should be provided where appropriate, obviously a waste of time in an outdoor pen in the rain of course.
I can understand that some animals will have had little handling prior to a sale but surely have we as a nation not matured enough by now to leave the old fashioned selling from the field well behind? Would it not be fairer to any horse or equine being sold to at the very least be halter broken before they are entered into a sale. Surely making their time at the sale as stress free as possible should be our focus.
I also agree with licensing dealers and even breeders and way back in the debate on this very subject I voiced my very strong views with regard to it.
 
To just keep judging the person for making the mistake kind of misses the point that this goes on. And as long as it goes on equines continue to be caught up in it. Conniegirl buys a horse at a market (not on the internet) that is drugged, ok there was a happy ending but would you call her an idiot? And what of the horse – what had he been through to make him that way or doesn’t that count? Some of you have mentioned the horses in the footage look in good condition but that’s not the whole story is it…….

Hi conniegirl - you said
"As for the auction, i cant see much wrong with it, the bedding, hay and water is upto the seller to organise not the auction house."

Yes it is up to the seller – but do you think supplying hay, water, bedding should be mandatory? Bearing in mind some of these animals are shipped from sale to sale so access to water especially is often limited.
Emma
 
Aren't we getting two issues a bit confused here? The issue of how horses are treated at sales is quite separate from the problem of ignorant novices being conned into buying unsuitable horses sight unseen by dodgy dealers. One has no real bearing on the other.
 
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