forage analysis...does it make a difference?

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Marley&Me

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Hi all,

I have a quirky un-shod rising 6 year old cob. He is sound but has occasionally erratic behaviour, and is noticeably different without is linseed and cal mag, which is added to his speedibeet, pink powder and charcoal.

Another livery has just had her forage analysed and it shows some deficiencies in magnesium, copper, zinc, iron and phosporous, as well as a high level of Manganese which effects the absorption of the already depleted iron. So it looks like there are some obvious minerals missing which could/should be supplemented.

I just wonder what differences you have noticed in your horses following balancing the forage accurately with minerals. Is it worth the hassel of buying and measuring out all the minerals?

I dont mean to sound harsh, but in the past we fed cobs hay and not much else and they seemed fine!

Obviously I want the best for my boy but just wondering how much of a difference it might or might not make!
 
Tbh a very large majority of us are feeding hay/grass with decencies in minerals. As long as your horse is receiving a balanced hard feed diet and the optimum amount for your horses weight he will be receiving all the daily bits and mins he needs anyway so no need for any additional supplements despite the lacking hay. What do you feed your horse and how big, weight?
 
Trot_On_Dressage said:
As long as your horse is receiving a balanced hard feed diet and the optimum amount for your horses weight he will be receiving all the daily bits and mins he needs anyway so no need for any additional supplements despite the lacking hay. What do you feed your horse and how big, weight?
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There in lies the rub.

Balanced hard feed...but balanced to what?
 
Sorry Oberon I dont understand what you mean! I've had a long day. A balanced diet is one where the horse receives all the vitamins and minerals in the correct daily amount that they need. This will depend on what the OP is feeding and the current amount being fed. A 500kg horse would require around a minimum of 2.5kg of hard feed to receive the minimum amount of vits and mins but will need more if it struggles to hold weight etc. this is why I asked what they fed and how much.
 
Trot_On_Dressage said:
Sorry Oberon I dont understand what you mean! I've had a long day. A balanced diet is one where the horse receives all the vitamins and minerals in the correct daily amount that they need. This will depend on what the OP is feeding and the current amount being fed. A 500kg horse would require around a minimum of 2.5kg of hard feed to receive the minimum amount of vits and mins but will need more if it struggles to hold weight etc. this is why I asked what they fed and how much.
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What I mean is, when you say the hard feed is balanced.....what is it balanced to?

If the main bulk of a horse's diet is forage....surely the hard feed should be balanced to this?
 
Trot_On_Dressage said:
Sorry Oberon I dont understand what you mean! I've had a long day. A balanced diet is one where the horse receives all the vitamins and minerals in the correct daily amount that they need. This will depend on what the OP is feeding and the current amount being fed. A 500kg horse would require around a minimum of 2.5kg of hard feed to receive the minimum amount of vits and mins but will need more if it struggles to hold weight etc. this is why I asked what they fed and how much.
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I am not sure about that, my boy is 465kgs and in light work, barefoot, he gets much less than 2.5ks, in fact he would only ever get that much if he was in hard work.
He gets less than 1kg Fast Fibre with some non-molassed sugar beet, 30mg mins and vits and some chaff to make it more interesting, oh, and 80mg micronised linseed and some magnesium.
 
I may be wrong (I'm certainly no expert - this is just my understanding) but I assume that oberon is refering to the fact that having too much or too little of certain minerals in your forage can affect the uptake/absorbtion of others. It's not just about the horse getting the correct amount of each - they need to have the correct amounts in relation to each other, which is where the forage analysis becomes useful.
 
celia said:
I may be wrong (I'm certainly no expert - this is just my understanding) but I assume that oberon is refering to the fact that having too much or too little of certain minerals in your forage can affect the uptake/absorbtion of others. It's not just about the horse getting the correct amount of each - they need to have the correct amounts in relation to each other, which is where the forage analysis becomes useful.
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That's my understanding too. Forage is the main feed and if there are high levels of some minerals and low of others in the forage the balancer is probably no longer able to supply enough of some minerals.
 
Hard feed made by a feed company will have vitamin and minerals included in them. The different weights of horses will determine the amount you need to feed in order to recei e the correct levels. I know this because I have worked for feed companies in the past on their care line. Giving people feed advice was my job. I'm on my phone so can't use quote but if you feed less than the feeds/horse's weight than your horse isn't receiving a balanced diet and a balancer or vitamin and mineral supement needs to be added into their diet.
 
Also you are right, each mineral and vitamin in hard feed is balanced out with each other. This means you get them all in the correct amounts with each other. I think you are all thinking about it too much! That what balanced means.
 
Trot_On_Dressage said:
Also you are right, each mineral and vitamin in hard feed is balanced out with each other. This means you get them all in the correct amounts with each other. I think you are all thinking about it too much! That what balanced means.
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I don't think you can think too much about your horse's diet.

My days of blindly trusting the feed companies are way behind me.
 
I didnt say you shouldn't think about your horses diet, just you are thinking about the term balanced too much! A well respected company will balance out each product so your horse is receiving everything they need in the correct amounts. Don't feel like that about feed companies, they are the good guys honest. Unfortunately in my experience the main truth of the matter is a lot of horse owners don't understand horse feeding and nutrition. I am an ai and obviously done my bhs exams and to be honest the nutrition part of the exams is useless, doesn't actually explain how to feed/ what to feed etc. in general most horses in this country don't require their full ration of hard feed. Which is brilliant news for the owners as obviously lots of money to be saved. Forage shod always be the main part of the diet but for those receiving less than the required min amount just add a balancer to top up the vits and mins being lost. Out of interest, why the hostility towards feed companies?
 
Yes Amanda p. As long as you are feeding a balanced hard feed diet, whether this is a balancer or hard feed diet in relation to their weight and workload the decencies in the hay don't matter as you are already supplementing their diet with the hard feed.
 
Trot_On_Dressage said:
Hard feed made by a feed company will have vitamin and minerals included in them. The different weights of horses will determine the amount you need to feed in order to recei e the correct levels. I know this because I have worked for feed companies in the past on their care line. Giving people feed advice was my job. I'm on my phone so can't use quote but if you feed less than the feeds/horse's weight than your horse isn't receiving a balanced diet and a balancer or vitamin and mineral supement needs to be added into their diet.
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Yes, what I think is that some feeds have insufficient vita and mins, for two reasons, one they are expensive [and would drive up cost per bag], and two, the companies want to sell more product. Thus more profit. I particularly single out "pasture mix" and some "quiet mixes", which are full of wheatfeed, cereals, and even moglo.
Also most companies also sell "balancers", which provide the necessary vitamins and minerals, but retail at a higher price, though they may cost less per day, it is a marketing ploy, creating a demand , then meeting it with a suitable product.
For this reason I base my feed on Fast Fibre and top up with Equimins Advance, but at less than the recommended dose, as the FF is providing a base. I also feed micronised linseed as it provides slow release energy, vitamins, omega, and fibre, rather than a sugar boost.


I
 
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I am lucky, because I have a spring water supply I have my water tested and it tests very high in manganese. This is the same water that waters the grass in my field and that my horses drink. Because I know that excess manganese causes copper depeletion because it competes for the same receptor sites, I supplement copper. Since I have done so, my horse which used to lose concavity every summer no longer does and now in my third year of copper supplementation has more concavity than ever before.

The answer to your question of whether forage analysis makes a difference is a resounding YES, provided you find an excess or a deficiency of something fundamental to the horse's well being.

If your horse is barefoot and rock crunching, is analysis worthwhile? No. Are you struggling with lack of concavity, mud fever, thrush and/or footiness on stones? Yes.
 
Firstly sugar isn't a problem! Horses need sugar and your grass will contain far more sugar than any feed product. The problem lies in starch. If you was finding your horses excitable, bad mannered then the sime solution is to stay away from mixes and use cubes instead as mixes contain cereals which contain starch. Choosing cubes which use fibre and oil for their energy sources instead of starch is also a good idea. Feed carelines are excellent for getting this kind of advice. Unfortunatley where lies a lot of the problems is horse owners feeding horses products which arent suited to them because they dont understand nutrition or why they feed what they do. Whilist working on the careline the amount of people i would speak to who said they fed xxx product because their friend did was enormous. Just because it works for your friend doesnt mean it will work for your horse. Feed companies yes need to make a profit but also calculate how much a horse needs to maintain their weight. If your horse can maintain their weight on less than this than great, good for you. The majority of horses in the uk at the moment can also do this. This isn't down to the feed companies trying to rip you off, it's because we do in all honesty over rug and under work. Some horses are very good doers tho. I know of some who event on just a balancer and hay! Horses are individuals after all.
 
The point is that people get forage analysis done so that they can establish the baseline. The mixes and balancers sold by feed companies work on a baseline of the horse getting zero (I guess, can't see how else they'd do it), then tell you what to feed based on weight of horse. Forage analysis gives you a starting point telling you what the horse is already getting from it's bulk fodder, then you feed according to that. Part of the reason that horses are such individuals when it comes to feed is that they are getting different baselines of nutrition inside them from grazing and hay, before you take into account any hard feed.

Don't even get people started on the fillers that are used in commercial mixes, cubes etc...
 
But this makes it so hard for you. You can't in all honesty work out exactly how much vits and mins your horse needs in their hard feed from the amount they get in their hay/grass diet! God, that would be impossible! Tbh it doesn't matter if your hay is lacking, as long as the hard feed diet is their than that's it! Sometimes I think we make it all seem harder than it is!
 
Trot_On_Dressage said:
But this makes it so hard for you. You can't in all honesty work out exactly how much vits and mins your horse needs in their hard feed from the amount they get in their hay/grass diet! God, that would be impossible! Tbh it doesn't matter if your hay is lacking, as long as the hard feed diet is their than that's it! Sometimes I think we make it all seem harder than it is!
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But this isn't the whole truth TOD, is it? There are some ratios that are absolutely critical. If you have too much manganese or iron it is not enough to have "the right amount" of copper, you have to overfeed copper in order to get enough absorbed. My horses have shown this clearly. They have always had a broad supplement in their cubes, but it was marked what happened when I "overdosed" them on copper. A similar thing happens with calcium and phosphorous, I understand.

If you have excess manganese, iron and or molybdenum or excess phosophorous then you need an analysis to show you that you need to feed additional calcium or copper. (I understand that copper should be fed with zinc but I never have and have no trouble so far, as I believe that my forage and food contains plenty of zinc as it is.)
 
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Miss L Toe said:
I am not sure about that, my boy is 465kgs and in light work, barefoot, he gets much less than 2.5ks, in fact he would only ever get that much if he was in hard work.
He gets less than 1kg Fast Fibre with some non-molassed sugar beet, 30mg mins and vits and some chaff to make it more interesting, oh, and 80mg micronised linseed and some magnesium.
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My horses are in hard work and non gets as much as 2.5 kgs of hard food as they are on forage based diets.
I dont feed any mixes so need to supplement there diet.
 
cptrayes said:
But this isn't the whole truth TOD, is it? There are some ratios that are absolutely critical. If you have too much manganese or iron it is not enough to have "the right amount" of copper, you have to overfeed copper in order to get enough absorbed. My horses have shown this clearly. They have always had a broad supplement in their cubes, but it was marked what happened when I "overdosed" them on copper. A similar thing happens with calcium and phosphorous, I understand.

If you have excess manganese, iron and or molybdenum or excess phosophorous then you need an analysis to show you that you need to feed additional calcium or copper. (I understand that copper should be fed with zinc but I never have and have no trouble so far, as I believe that my forage and food contains plenty of zinc as it is.)
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Wot Cptrayes said...
 
Golden star- ok he is obviously a good doer then! As I said some horses are good doers. This is fine. If he doesn't need 2.5 kg to maintain his weight than great. Just supplement his feed with a balancer to top up on vits and mins. I did say tho a horse of 500kg needs a min of 2.5kg as a rough guide. If it doesn't need this than it is a good doer. My boy is light work weighs around 500 and needs 3kg a day to maintain his weight. He is on a low cal diet but I would love him to be a good doer, less expense for me!
 
rockysmum said:
And this is exactly why I would never ring a feed company for advice.
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RM I have been told that the feed companies all buy the same vitamin/mineral premix to put in their products. They continue to supplement iron and manganese even though most horses have no need of those minerals and many, many of them are already overloaded due to their forage and/or grazing, leading to copper depletion.
 
Trot_On_Dressage said:
Rockys mum- y? Please she'd some light with your invaluable experience then
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I didn't say I was an expert, but feed companies are in business to sell products.

Feed 2.5 Kg per day of our balanced mix and everything will be fine, regardless of anything else in the horses diet, is a very good example. And if you dont feed 2.5Kg then buy some of our very expensive balancer is another.

Its all too generic, horses, grazing, forage are all different. Many owners buy their hay/haylage from several different sources throughout the year.

To suggest that its not necessary to have feed analysed is too simplistic.
 
Trot On Dressage you have nicely outlined for me why I would never ever buy mixed feed for my horse or trust their help lines. Thanks :D

You clearly have no understanding of the sales line you are repeating. Just because the feed is balanced from zero does not mean it is providing adequate minerals for your horse.

They also have to be balanced within safe quantities IN CASE your forage is very high in say calcium, if they had too much calcium in their bagged feeds this would up the calcium the horse was already getting in the forage to potentially dangerous levels. This would then limit the absorption of copper so the horse would be OD'ing on calcium and deficient in copper.......

It is not impossible to balance the macros of the feed to the pasture, that is exactly what Forage Plus for eg do and exactly what the vast majority of dairy farms do to keep their cows producing high milk yields on a knife edge balance.
 
Well I am sorry you feel like that Tiger Tail but in reality there is no need for you to have that opinion. I do understand what you are saying in regards to different mineral amounts and trace minerals but as I said you are taking a simple concept to the extreme.

There is no way in which you could 100% guarantee your horse in getting a balanced diet in the terms you are talking about. Firstly, to make sure you know how much of the minerals are in your feed you would need to have them all analysed. Ok, this bit isn't hard, hay analysis, soil analyisis, hard feed analyisis. Next step is to weigh up the amount of daily feed intake your horse is having and then calculate how much of each mineral etc they are getting per day and supplement with the minerals that are lacking. Sounds easy enough? May be if your horses didn't eat grass and was purely being fed hay/ hard feed as there is no way you can even estimate how much grass your horse eats within its turnout hours to do your figures so they are ways going to be wrong and then you will be over dosing them on something\underfeeding them on something else. So although in general your actions are correct, to carry it out is unfortunately impossible and unnecessary for the average horse owner.

Humans just like horses need a balanced diet with different amounts of minerals, trace minerals etc. I certainly do not analyisis my diet in your way and I am sure you don't either. Guidelines tell us to eat 5 portions of fruit and veg a day, they don't tell us to calculate every single element and add them together. Y? Because it would be impossible and very time consuming! Every price of fruit and veg you eat will be deficient in something depending upon where it is grown in the world. A large number of people try to eat some fruit/veg per day and then take a vitamin and mineral tablet just to top up your levels. As I said you thinking into it in far too much detail which is unnessary and taking things to the extreme. This is your choice and if it works for you then great. I for one will not be calculating and analyisising ever but of grass/hay my horse eats as I know he gets a balanced diet from his hard feed and that's all I need to worry about. There are plenty of horses who don't get a balanced diet in the first place. I can then spend the time I have saved, not to mention money from not having to spend a fortune on supements enjoying my horse.
 
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