Forage Analysis/Feed Balancers

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sonjafoers

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I've read with interest Oberons post in stable yard about feeding minerals after doing a forage analysis. I've asked a few questions but nobody has replied yet so I thought I'd ask in here :)

I have a few questions so here goes......

My horses graze over about 15 acres plus a woodland, they have all natural hedging and a river from which they eat the weed. It would be difficult for me to get samples of things they eat over the whole area so what would I need to do?

They also have 2 types of branded bagged haylage but I would think the natural grazing makes up a higher % of the diet. Would I need to get both haylages analysed?

Would you still need to feed a vitamin supplement alongside the recommended minerals?

I feed a balancer normally and I've always thought they provide pretty much everything and anything the horses don't require passes right through. I know that's quite a general assumptions but am I thinking along the right lines?

Should hard feed be analysed too?

I've looked at a few websites & it seems quite expensive to get all this done but somebody on the other post has said they feed mixed minerals and the horses choose what they need. If I wanted to do this where would I buy mixed minerals and how would I feed them in order to give the horses their own choice? I can't feed in the field as I'm at livery.

Phew I think that's about it - any answers/info greatly appreciated!
 
Bumping as interested in replies. I used to use Total Eclipse but now mix my own, however the more I read and research the more I wonder if I am giving the minerals that all my horses and ponies need. Am in process of grass samples to Sara at Forage Plus, hopefully I will be more the wiser.
 
Sounds like you have lovely turnout for your horse.
Do you have a particular problem as it may well be that your horses can get everything they need from their environment especially if they have all sorts of woodland to choose from.

I had one done but I don't have that sort of variety.

If you do want one done, the instructions said to walk over the fields in a W shape to get a range. It may take a while but you can do something similar.

The bagged haylage could come from different places, often it's made under licence for the company so I would ignore that, especially given that grazing is the highest proportion.

Once you have the minerals recommended you don't really need to add anything else unless you addressing another problem e.g. joint supplement.

Commercial balancers give you a bit of everything based on your forage being equally low in everything. However there are some things you can over supplement (e.g. selenium and you shouldn't add extra unless you know they are low but you may be short of these.

Then elements like managanese than prevent the uptake of copper and zinc so in a commercial balancer you could be feeding extra manganese which is cancelling out other vitamins.

There is outlay to get it done but the minerals compare well over time if you were feeding a balancer already.

Hope that helps
 
Thanks fizzer!

I have looked at Forage Plus and it seems quite expensive to have grazing & haylage analyzed and then get their recommendations.

I also wonder how long their recommendations will last as the pasture will change throughout the year, so it could be that what was right for them initially won't always be right so it could be a regular expense/exercise.

It has got me thinking about feed balancers though & what's in them - how can thy balance the diet if they don't know what needs balancing?

I think I've fried my brains thinking about this :eek:
 
Yes you can take a sample from your field of grass or whatever they eat, in the proportions you think they eat it - will be a bit of a guesstimate but its a start.

People who have trained with Eleanor Kellon seem to be good, I used Balanced Equine based in Oz, and had the forage analysis done by Dairy One in the US, £16 compared to ££££s over here. Makes it feasible to have more than one source of forage tested (eg your two types of haylage). Worth asking if the haylage producer has had an analysis done, or for £16 suggest it!

Would have thought if they have decent grass, herbs, hedges etc, they woudl be getting most of their vits? The only one I was advised to supplement was vit E.

I would not drive yourself mad trying to get it all exact - hay can vary from one side of the field to the other, whether it grew in shade/a dip etc - so I would just treat it as a starting point and go from there. It is reassuring to know that your horses diet has everything in it they are theoretically supposed to need.

Balancer wise, I guess they have to be one size fits all, as the manufacturers don't want to be overdosing anyone's horse!

Hence a little bit of everything, which may be enough to make a difference if your horse is lacking a little of something, but won't correct a major deficiency. I looked at how much I would need to feed of Topspec, Blue Chip etc to correct the imbalances in our forage, and there was nowhere near enough of what was lacking - by a factor of 10. Buying the minerals alone costs about £6 per horse per month.

Don't know how you woudl organise the free choice thing, that is beyond me at the moment!
Hope that helps.


EMC
 
I had mine done with forage plus about 15 months ago and I asked if I needed to get another one done and they said not unless something changes.

I suppose the grass can vary over the year in terms of richness and sugar but the underlying mineral levels are stable.
 
Thank you Criso, you have made me think even more about commercial balancers now!

I don't have a particular problem but one of mine has been under the weather recently, and quite often gets that way at this time of year. My vet advises me to feed a blood type tonic intermittently over winter to give her a boost but the feed company I use says I shouldn't need to do this as she is getting a fully balanced diet from their balancer.

It does make me think she is missing something but I've no idea what. In addition I would be interested to know if they are foraging anything that is making their intake very unbalanced as although we have a large area it is very well grazed down.
 
criso said:
Interestingly when I was given my feed plan I was advised to feed Micronised linseed and vitamin E in the winter so I guess those are lacking in winter forage.
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If you haven't really got problems I'd be inclined to feed these and possibly try adding magnesium oxide (calmag or pure) as well.

Getting a one off grass analysis will show if there are any major insufficiencies or very high amounts of anything though. I am another who thinks it's worth asking the commercial companies for a nutritional and mineral analysis of their products.
It isn't an exact science though so a one off grass one might well be enough if you decide to go this way.
 
sonjafoers said:
I've read with interest Oberons post in stable yard about feeding minerals after doing a forage analysis. I've asked a few questions but nobody has replied yet so I thought I'd ask in here :)

I have a few questions so here goes......

My horses graze over about 15 acres plus a woodland, they have all natural hedging and a river from which they eat the weed. It would be difficult for me to get samples of things they eat over the whole area so what would I need to do?

They also have 2 types of branded bagged haylage but I would think the natural grazing makes up a higher % of the diet. Would I need to get both haylages analysed?

Would you still need to feed a vitamin supplement alongside the recommended minerals?

I feed a balancer normally and I've always thought they provide pretty much everything and anything the horses don't require passes right through. I know that's quite a general assumptions but am I thinking along the right lines?

Should hard feed be analysed too?

I've looked at a few websites & it seems quite expensive to get all this done but somebody on the other post has said they feed mixed minerals and the horses choose what they need. If I wanted to do this where would I buy mixed minerals and how would I feed them in order to give the horses their own choice? I can't feed in the field as I'm at livery.

Phew I think that's about it - any answers/info greatly appreciated!
Click to expand...

I'm still new to all this myself, but I'll try to help.

You can get an analysis done cheaper by dealing with the labs yourself but you need to be specific in what you want. I paid £47 with D&H for the full mineral breakdown as this is what you really need for this. The lab in the US (which ForagePlus uses, I believe) does the most comprehensive breakdown for the best price, but you have the faff of filling out all the forms regarding sending forage to another country. I couldn't be arsed with all that, so I got D&H to do it. Nowadays I'd use ForagePlus as they do it all in one go.
My analysis was done a year ago now, from haylage only and it still seems to do the trick. It's not an exact science, but it's more exact than the feed companies!

After you have the analysis you get someone to do a diet sheet for you. They will tailor make this to your individual horse - what minerals you need and what you would mix it into. That and the forage will be everything your horse needs. I know Progressive Horse (who did mine) would provide me with ongoing advice, should my horse's needs change. I have done the Dr Kellon course but I was not comfortable doing the calculations myself. I'd rather pay someone else than do math!!!
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The problem with commercial feeds and balancers is that they are balanced to something - but not to the forage your horse is eating.
Certain minerals jostle for absorption in the gut and some are in low levels compared to others that they don't get a fair chance....

eg, My forage is high in calcium but lower in zinc. If you think about an army of Calcium soldiers facing a couple of old Zinc dudes - then who's going to win that fight? And that's before I add a 'high in calcium' commercial mix. As zinc is essential for skin health - it would explain why my horse has suffered from mud fever every winter by now....

So to reiterate, to follow this process you need to;
1) Get a forage analysis
2) Have a bespoke diet done from this
3) Buy the necessary minerals etc
4) Add the minerals as directed.

It is easier, cheaper and simpler to just carry on as normal and feed the shiny bag of mix that says it does everything on the side of the bag. If your horse is fine on this, then great. But my horse was healthy and fed a 'good' diet IMO - and I've been surprised by the improvements in him on the minerals.

There is a larger outlay at first, but the £12 tubs of minerals I buy will last me a whole year, so I find it cheaper that I did before.

I spend an hour a month bagging up each day's portion to make everything easier.
I rather enjoy doing it
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mineralsoncooker.jpg

mineralsinbin.jpg


If anyone is interested, we (the Barefoot Taliban) have been sharing our results on here
http://uknhcp.myfastforum.org/about3261.html
 
Interesting thread but just a little confused that if you have your hay / haylage analysed this is surely a false guide to go by as the bales can come from different fields, headland and have been cut at different times, days and months? How do you balance the supplements based on this? Is the supplement balance not then just as vague as the commercial companies make balancers and hard feed?
Analysis of grazing I can understand but there are surely to many external factors to make it not generalised?
 
Great post again oberon. Love the pic! Made my head spin though. :p

I want to thank eatmorecake for reminding me about dairy one. I see they now have a specialist equine department. I can get a full analysis for $26 which converts to under 20 euro. Fab. I just need to check postage cost.
 
Wizzlewoo
In terms of hay/haylage different times of day and date will affect things like sugar levels but not levels of minerals like copper and zinc and calcium etc.
However different fields can depending on how far they are, so for this to be useful you need a consistent source and you need to take samples from a range of bales to average it out.

Commercially bagged haylages like Horsehage come from different suppliers in different parts of the country who make it under licence e.g. Fox feeds produce horsehage for Marksway in this area. So in that case I'm not sure how useful testing it is.
 
wizzlewoo said:
Interesting thread but just a little confused that if you have your hay / haylage analysed this is surely a false guide to go by as the bales can come from different fields, headland and have been cut at different times, days and months? How do you balance the supplements based on this? Is the supplement balance not then just as vague as the commercial companies make balancers and hard feed?
Analysis of grazing I can understand but there are surely to many external factors to make it not generalised?
Click to expand...

It's possible given that our haylage comes from different fields, but I HAVE seen improvements since feeding this way over commercial feeds - so it must be doing some good.

Dairy farmers have been doing things this was for decades in the US. A hay supplier wouldn't even bother trying to sell to a dairy farmer without providing a full analysis along with it. It's just not done.

For many years I (and other horse people) have been in the dark ages...we buy hay because it's what they have at the feed store...and it smells nice....
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Farmers in Britain and across the world do this as it is the job of an agronomist and used predominantly for milk yealds, the difference being that the agronomist would test the grass analysis of the whole field before it is cut and then the dry/baled analysis before going to the farmer. This does not help the fact that as horse owners we do not know the analysis of every bale and so it surely changes the balance of minerals every time. I accept that there are some really positive results being seen but then you could argue that there are really positive results shown from feeding a quality commercial diet? I wouldn't say that we were in the dark ages for feeding hay/haylage un tested but i do agree that people dont look into what they feed enough and so the feed can have an adverse effect on their horses performance and health. Prime example is how many people feed seaweed because it is a natural supplement, but it can do detrimental damage if fed to broodmares or youngstock.
As i say an interesting thread and im just raising some further questions and the possibility that it is not as easily done as just analysing the grass and haylage.
 
The hay sampling should be taken correctly and from sufficient bales to get an average. Instructions are very clear and this is why I've never done it as my hay is bought in small batches so I can't get a representative sample.
I intend to get my grass analysed.
 
What does frustrate me is the reliance on commercial feeds.
I became disillusioned a few years ago. The feed merchant drops feed off in my barn every week as I am nearest the entrance of the yard. I got to look at different bags of feeds that people were buying and it was all;
Wheat feed, grass meal, straw meal, alfalfa, molasses, soya with limestone flour and vit/min premix
in every different bag. I started wondering how every brand (Spillers, Top Spec, Bailey's D&H etc...) could be so different from the other, with the same kind of ingredients? So I started thinking "I could make that myself for half the price":p

I got the analysis done etc and have been feeding this way for a few months. I am impressed with the results so I have offered to share the analysis results with the rest of the yard for free.....
Anyone interested?

Not even one person:( The trust in the magic of the commercial feeds is too strong.
 
If I was at your yard I would have been interested Oberon :D

It was your thread in SY that got me thinking about this & although I would need to learn a bit more about the accuracy/usefulness of the analysis I think it's definately a place to start. It's also made me question feed balancers and the usefulness of them.

I think this will be whirring around in my brain for some time to come!
 
sonjafoers said:
My horses graze over about 15 acres plus a woodland, they have all natural hedging and a river from which they eat the weed. It would be difficult for me to get samples of things they eat over the whole area so what would I need to do?

It would be difficult but not impossible. You would have to map out and take a sample from an even, representative portion of everything. I marked out a field and a W wasn't sufficient to include everything, so I did a WWWWW and took a sample every 10 strides up and down that line.

They also have 2 types of branded bagged haylage but I would think the natural grazing makes up a higher % of the diet. Would I need to get both haylages analysed?

Depends on how much % of your horse's diet this makes up.

Would you still need to feed a vitamin supplement alongside the recommended minerals?

Horses happily synthesise vitamins for themselves, or they are abundant in most forages. They don't usually tend to be an issue.

I feed a balancer normally and I've always thought they provide pretty much everything and anything the horses don't require passes right through. I know that's quite a general assumptions but am I thinking along the right lines?

Sadly not. Some minerals are taken up from the same binding sites. Think the lottery machines. If there is an excess of one and a normal amount of the competing nutrient in the machine, when the 6 balls are drawn there is more likely to be more of one and less of the other, creating a false defficiency and a surplus.

Should hard feed be analysed too?

Again, depends how much of the diet it makes up, and if the manufacturers have done an analysis on it themselves which they will share with you. There are tables available with general figures for the most popular hard feeds, I used those.

I've looked at a few websites & it seems quite expensive to get all this done but somebody on the other post has said they feed mixed minerals and the horses choose what they need. If I wanted to do this where would I buy mixed minerals and how would I feed them in order to give the horses their own choice? I can't feed in the field as I'm at livery.

Two forms of selection come into play when talking about diet: there is no evidence that horses selectively graze according to nutrient requirement, only to palatability. Horses also don't selectively uptake minerals in the gut, they have to work with what they've got, particularly with those in the lottery ball example. A broad spectrum supplement will not balance if your horse's diet is imbalanced; it can only bring deficiencies up. Toxicity - too much - and false deficiencies are why people choose to balance according to analyses.

Phew I think that's about it - any answers/info greatly appreciated!
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criso said:
sonjafoers said:
Thanks fizzer!

I have looked at Forage Plus and it seems quite expensive to have grazing & haylage analyzed and then get their recommendations.

I also wonder how long their recommendations will last as the pasture will change throughout the year, so it could be that what was right for them initially won't always be right so it could be a regular expense/exercise.

The mineral profile of your grass should remain fairly constant, unless you fertilise with certain fertilizers, or you are on a massive slope, where nutrients from higher land wash onto yours, and/or yours wash away. Its other nutrients that vary with season.

It has got me thinking about feed balancers though & what's in them - how can thy balance the diet if they don't know what needs balancing?

That's the reason behind forage analysis :)

I think I've fried my brains thinking about this :eek:
Click to expand...

wizzlewoo said:
Interesting thread but just a little confused that if you have your hay / haylage analysed this is surely a false guide to go by as the bales can come from different fields, headland and have been cut at different times, days and months? How do you balance the supplements based on this? Is the supplement balance not then just as vague as the commercial companies make balancers and hard feed?
Analysis of grazing I can understand but there are surely to many external factors to make it not generalised?
Click to expand...

Hay and haylage is much more difficult to balance, because there are usually outside factors as you say. If you are buying a locally produced forage straight from the producer it is more likely to be of a uniform profile. The analysis companies advise you take a sample from as many different bales as possible, and get a representative mix to be analysed.

As you realise, its expensive, time consuming and nigh on impossible to analyse and science out your horse's diet 100%. You've got to weigh all these factors up to work out if forage analysis is the right thing for you. In all fairness if you don't have much grazing and you're frequently receiving different batches of hay/haylage then it may be impractical for you to work to this regime. Of course the plus side to that is that any imbalance in one batch won't be a long term problem for your horse, as the next is likely to be different!
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sonjafoers said:
If I was at your yard I would have been interested Oberon :D

It was your thread in SY that got me thinking about this & although I would need to learn a bit more about the accuracy/usefulness of the analysis I think it's definately a place to start. It's also made me question feed balancers and the usefulness of them.

I think this will be whirring around in my brain for some time to come!
Click to expand...

Aw - you'd be my friend
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What sold it all to me was Sarah's (of ForagePlus) horse, Fari. She started on the whole barefoot thing because of his problems. His trimming and care ticked every box in the Barefoot Taliban's rulebook.....but she could never get him 100% comfortable with his feet.
So she tried this feeding route and it was the missing piece of the puzzle for him. Sarah was so pleased with this, she's ended up starting up ForagePlus.
I've since (in my limited experience) noted that horses with niggling problems often come right with mineral balancing. My old fella certainly has.
 
What struck me was: How can the feed companies supply you with a feed balancer when they don't know the vitimin/mineral content of what you already feed?

Answer: They can't!

When you think about it, it's obvious!
 
foxy1 said:
What struck me was: How can the feed companies supply you with a feed balancer when they don't know the vitimin/mineral content of what you already feed?

Answer: They can't!

When you think about it, it's obvious!
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This!
If you aren't having problems then there is no need to worry but remember balancers are balanced to a theoretical horses requirement and don't take into account other feed or balance in your forages. Plus, many commercial feeds have preservatives and other unnecessary stuff added as fillers or taste enhancers that some horses are sensitive to.
 
i work for a company that does analysis of all feed stuffs. For people buying product off us (in the case of horsey people it would be the farage treatment product) all of the analysis is done for free. We do minerals and dairy/beef diets according to the analysis of the forages and our lab does a full mineral breakdown as well as fibre breakdown. I utilise the results of our own forages to do all of our horses diets.
 
amage said:
i work for a company that does analysis of all feed stuffs. For people buying product off us (in the case of horsey people it would be the farage treatment product) all of the analysis is done for free. We do minerals and dairy/beef diets according to the analysis of the forages and our lab does a full mineral breakdown as well as fibre breakdown. I utilise the results of our own forages to do all of our horses diets.
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Cool! Is this in the UK?

Is this something you've been doing for a while or a new service?
 
It's an american company, I am based in Ireland and they have a team across Ireland and the UK. We don't sell feed but are a nutritional company for Dairy/Beef operations. PM me if anyone wants further details
 
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