Foreign stallions- the only way that British breeding can progress -

Performance is about only one thing, WINNING - This is so true because only then will the game be raised. How can anyone enter a competition without that one thought in their head "To Win". No professional who earns their money from their sport can think any different, otherwise you are beaten before you even start.

You have to believe in yourself, you have to want it. Dont get me wrong when it involves an animal then winning is not at the expense of their welfare.
 
Sorry, coming back in some way downstream .... but enjoying reading all the posts, and some good points made.

On the "little island" point that I made, yes, good rebuttal, and am re-thinking that one!

As always, one of the key difficulties in the way of improving British breeding does seem to be the lack of government support. Historically, UK equestrian organisations have failed to have any influence on government policy. This was due at times to in-fighting and squabbling within and between the different organisations. We are nationally inclined to criticise and whinge rather than build, and I think that this has been very evident in parts of the horse world! There seems to be a crisis post the 2008 Olympics on future equestrian involvement - but the Chinese alternative word for "crisis" is "opportunity". With the run-up to the 2012 Olympics, there's such an opportunity for British equestrian organisations to continue to get their acts together, to put very strong marketing and revenue generation arguments to the government for a longer-term strategy to put some serious investment the way of equestrian breeding, training and sports long-term - not just over the next 4 years. Also to give some serious thought to the early training and involvement of new generations of young riders.

Now Ken, with your persuasive powers, bulldog tenacity and your connections ..... is there a role for your influencing skills here? (Maybe some input on conflict management? lol!!)
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Just to pick up a couple of other points in no particular order - increasing the quality of the "average" horse : we have a great example of putting eventriders part-Welsh coloured cob mare, (breeding unkown) to a young WB stallion standing locally (El Thuder), whose pedigree is outstanding, but also carefully checked out for temperament. Because he's young, his stud fee was VERY reasonable, and eventrider has bred a lovely foal who I think will make a cracking show hunter and has a lovely trainable temperament, whilst really gaining quality, class and athleticism from his sire. He shows every potential to make an "amateur" RC rider a lovely mount.

Final point about involving a wider population of talented young riders .... did anyone else read an article a year or so ago (maybe in H&H?) about a breeder of eventers in Australia who has made it his mission, alongside producing a few of his best horses, to develop and train young riders who hadn't necessarily had the opportunities that their more privileged peers might have had? We need more imaginative schemes like this! (And yes, I know all the difficulties in the way, but hey .....)
 
i think, Ken, dare i say, your being slightly agressive not in the slightest, to state performance is about only one thing. WINNING. Isn't remotely aggresive, it's a statement of fact or do we have to return to the happily dead concept of Corinthian spirit? Did you watch the cycling, rowing or sailing at the Olympics? The problem with your stance, is that you're not in context.

You breed for performance and performance is about winning. Two seperate but connected processes.

but do and would 100% support british bred horses, and i think the above comment sounds awful (coming from a breeder) as winning is a bonus I support British bred horses, but it's a racing certainty that someone who states "winning is a bonus" is never going to understand my view, that winning is what sport is about.
 
Interesting argument. Performance IS about winning. BUT there are very few winners relative to runners. So the chances of any given foal, even by a world class stallion out of a top class mare actually BEING that best, are remote; so what about the also-rans?

If you have genuinely aimed for the best of the best based on WINNING ONLY and fallen short, you will have not have worried too much about temperament (you would expect the professional rider to cope), some aspects of soundness (eg OCD; if the horse has world-class ability, its worth the cost of veterinary intervention to put it right), ecomomy (cost of producing & keeping a high performance animal), conformation outwith the needs of this one discipline- you will have produced a failure in its own sphere that doesn't fit into any other & becomes a huge white elephant to the non-professional.

Small breeders therefore need a fall-back position; they DO need to think of something other than, or as well as, winning; soundness, temperament, adaptability; even an attractive coat colour! The difference in choice may be subtle, but I believe it is there, even while a breeder may be actually aiming for the big time. So in a sense, winning isn't the only thing, even though in another sense it should be.
 
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And you'd think that the eventers would be sticking to their guns and using tb blood only. Tosh! The four best eventing mares in the world were covered by a showjumping warmblood last year.

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One of these would surely be Brit (basically ISH?) - so that stallion would be Jaguar Mail? So you could equally well say that these mares had been sent to a three-quarter bred thoroughbred, by an off-the track American TB most emphatically bred for racing out of a half-bred mare by the TB Laudanum... which makes it all sound a bit different, doesn't it....
I gather that his breeder is a bit of a rebel who chose, on the basis of his own observation, study & experience to use this large infusion of TB blood against the established opinion of his country's stud-book?


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Excellent point! What percentage TB is JM, exactly?

And JM's breeder isn't even that much of a rebel, is he? It has been pointed out again and again that WBs are getting 'lighter' - i.e. with a higher percentage of TB blood, surely? And that the most popular, 'modern' WBs are the 'lighter' ones (ditto). (Quite apart from the fact that the WB wouldn't even exist without the English TB - so if it's a question of national pride, we can take credit for the whole bang-shoot!)

I am certainly no expert on this subject, but even as an 'outsider' it seems to me that the Continental WB breeders are using more TB blood, and we are in turn using their (lighter, TB-infused) WB stallions - all presumably in an effort to produce the best possible horses?

Does it really much matter where they come from, as long as overall standards are getting higher and better horses are being produced? Surely we all want the same thing?

Perhaps it would be simplest to say that the ideal sport horse is in future likely to be 'international' - a blend of the best bloodlines from different countries?

This is now almost universally accepted in Arab breeding - not sure why it is proving so difficult to accept in sport-horse breeding? Or have I missed something obvious?
 
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Britain can produce horses just as good too, after all we have done for years and the English Thoroughbred is one of the most successful and consistent horses in the world.

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Very true but don't forget how the English Thoroughbred was produced . . by the use of Arab stallions and they were foreign . . . . .
 
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Excellent point! What percentage TB is JM, exactly?

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81.64%

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I am certainly no expert on this subject, but even as an 'outsider' it seems to me that the Continental WB breeders are using more TB blood

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as i said they were, but the % TB of blood since the main use of TB stallions hasn't changed that much. especially in holstein however in hannover many of the stallions contained a lot less TB blood... the like of grannus and argentinus, and for pleasure. however it seems that many continental stallions are around the 50% mark ( clintissimo z 50.77%, cumano 51.59%, chacco blue 50.39%, cornet obolensky 45.3%) and ones that dont tend to lack holstein (or SF) input ( for example armitage (argentinus x grannus) 26.17%)

today continental studbooks use mainly SF and a few TB to invigorate lines that have become inbred and mix up the genes without losing the jumping potential. if more TBs competed at a international level successfully in SJ then i'm sure you would see larger amounts of TB blood.


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Does it really much matter where they come from, as long as overall standards are getting higher and better horses are being produced?

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of course not

in germany they tend to stick to traditional crosses (like argentinus x grannus and contendro x for pleasure becoming more common) and certain stallions and then they outcross tobring in some new blood. that is all very well but you need the foundations in order to that. however belgium and holland in my view are more 'melting pots' where the big names tend to be strung together.

if you look at foal auctions you will see trends in germany showing those crosses or crosses that are repeated.
http://service.vit.de/pfauktion/pfliste/uebersicht?id=2130
http://www.oldenburger-pferde.com/horses/pdf/KOLLEKTION_Fohlenmarkt_30-08-2008(1).pdf

if you look at foal auctions in holland then you'll see everything!
http://www.limburgseveulenveiling.nl/project/paarden_eng.php?evenement=4
http://www.veulenveilingprinsjesdag.nl/nl/selectie2008.html
at the end of the day it doesn't matter but until you have the foundations like germany it makes sense to use foreign stallions and create our own mixing pot to improve our performance horses and build some foundations. obviously you dont have to.

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Surely we all want the same thing?

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i'm not so sure
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Perhaps it would be simplest to say that the ideal sport horse is in future likely to be 'international' - a blend of the best bloodlines from different countries?

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indeed
 
Surely we all want the same thing? You'd think so, but actually I think you just want to argue about a subject you know nothing about (before you argue back, you did say admit that twice in your post).

Danny Dunne - the future of British breeding IMO.
 
I am perfectly happy to admit that I know nothing about WB breeding. That is why I am asking questions, and trying to learn more - and getting very helpful and informative responses, from people like DD.
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Sometimes the 'naive' questions of a reasonably intelligent novice/outsider/observer can be interesting and prompt healthy discussion. I notice that DD agreed with some of my 'naive' observations/questions.

But of course it's a lot easier for you to put down a novice like me than to respond to alleycat's point about the 'WB' Jaguar Mail being over 80% TB....
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I have bred stallions that combine "warmblood", TB and Irish blood. My theory being to use the best available talents to breed british talent. I also have straight warmbloods and all are good talented horses but I certainly couldn't split them into better and worse groups.I feel we have to use BWP, Kwpn etc to Improve the british stallions and entice more people to then use British bred/based stallions, be they foreign or not. There is still a lot of TB to be found in these pedigree's. I have some people that specifically want the irish blood, some want the "in vogue" blood and a lot just don't want a chestnut!
 
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i think, Ken, dare i say, your being slightly agressive not in the slightest, to state performance is about only one thing. WINNING. Isn't remotely aggresive, it's a statement of fact or do we have to return to the happily dead concept of Corinthian spirit? Did you watch the cycling, rowing or sailing at the Olympics? The problem with your stance, is that you're not in context.

You breed for performance and performance is about winning. Two seperate but connected processes.

but do and would 100% support british bred horses, and i think the above comment sounds awful (coming from a breeder) as winning is a bonus I support British bred horses, but it's a racing certainty that someone who states "winning is a bonus" is never going to understand my view, that winning is what sport is about.

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i think you have put words in my mouth, i never once said, 'you had to be agressive to win' please dont put words in my mouth. Your tones in reply were IMO agressive towards others, i felt, when people dont agree with you, you seem to assume that they dont know what they are doing/talking about. I really disagree, and some of the people with smaller studs are equally important/experienced as you/yours.

Seems a little unfair in my opinion, i clearly dont agree with all you seem to, so you automatically assume i dont get/understand the context,(isnt that arogant)

Hmmm,have to say at the mo am glad were possibly not singing off the same song sheet.

*bows down and moves out of the way*
 
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By breeding the best, you raise the average, thus the residuals end up in the amateur market. There's nothing wrong with that, it just means that the average riders performence will improve. I'm still not seeing a problem here.

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You obviously do not get round the lower end dressage competitions in the UK and SEE what happens when an average rider gets one of those 'residuals'. Often it means they're on a horse they can't ride one side of - and they're getting trounced - at Prelim & Novice - by nice little Irish Sport horses!
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And not 'modern' Irish sport horses (by Warmbloods) but traditional Irish Draught Sport Horses!

I've had 4 of those 'residuals' on my place in the last 6 months. One was SO hot it's owner couldn't ride it - so she put it in foal to a posh imported Warmblood. It came here for foaling - and there's no WAY she'll ride the foal either. It spent its first 3 months demonstrating what a foal on speed looks and behaves like!! AND they're threatening to bring the damn thing to us for backing - my jockey will need his 'chute!

The other 3 were bought as competition horses for ambitious amateurs - and all 3 had proved too much for those riders. One has now been retired to stud - the other 2 - with a LOT of work from us (on both the horses AND the riders) MAY go on to do the job. Before you tell me that's a very small sample, I'd agree, it is - but I could point you to at LEAST a dozen other professionals who'd tell you the same.

I'm sure not ALL Warmbloods are too 'hot' for amateur riders - but a hell of a lot of them are. IMHO, there are two markets - the 'professional' competition market - and the keen Amateur market (for riders whose ambition is to perhaps get to Medium dressage, or Intermediate eventing) and the 'failures' for one market WON'T generally suit the other!

I say 'generally' because there are exceptions, of course. I have one here who is by Lombardo (KWPN) by Guidam deRevel. And literally ANYONE who could climb on a 17hh horse could ride him - and be safe. But then he IS out of a 'proper' ISH mare - from whence the brain came.
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Fully agree Janet - Horses for courses
and added to this what is the price for the rejects? Either the amatuer won't pay to cover the breeder's cost. Or the breeder makes a loss, which I guess is ok if they regulalry breed superstar after superstar.
 
i think you have put words in my mouth, i never once said, 'you had to be agressive to win' please dont put words in my mouth. Your tones in reply were IMO agressive towards others, i felt, when people dont agree with you, you seem to assume that they dont know what they are doing/talking about. I really disagree, and some of the people with smaller studs are equally important/experienced as you/yours.

Seems a little unfair in my opinion, i clearly dont agree with all you seem to, so you automatically assume i dont get/understand the context,(isnt that arogant)

PinkTiger, I have to say that I don't understand one word of what you're saying here, and I think you've disappeared up your own back end on this one. Can you possibly untangle what it is that you're actually saying and get back to me, as I've read your post six times and just don't get it. If you do, can you fill me in?
 
just for you KR


i gave my opinion
you slated it because it wasnt what you wanted to hear!
thats my opinion and if you dont like it, maybe an opinion based forum isnt the best place for you!!!


deff of arrogant:

'proud and overbearing'


in the dictionary,took your advice!!!!
 
No, really Pinktiger, I really didn't understand a word of what you were saying. It's not about whether it was what I want to hear or not, just I couldn't understand the English or exactly what it was you were asking/saying/infering or what.

So can you explain?
 
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I have bred stallions that combine "warmblood", TB and Irish blood. My theory being to use the best available talents to breed british talent. I also have straight warmbloods and all are good talented horses but I certainly couldn't split them into better and worse groups.I feel we have to use BWP, Kwpn etc to Improve the british stallions and entice more people to then use British bred/based stallions, be they foreign or not. There is still a lot of TB to be found in these pedigree's. I have some people that specifically want the irish blood, some want the "in vogue" blood and a lot just don't want a chestnut!

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Yep - makes sense to me. And as Ken didn't answer the point about Jaguar Mail, we can remind him that DESPITE his scathing opinion of TBs, Jaguar Mail is 75% TB. And of course Headley Britannia is a BRITISH bred mare by a great BRITISH sport horse stallion who was by that great RID stallion Skippy! British breeders are hardly the fools Ken would suggest!

And yes, British breeders SHOULD use the best of the European Warmbloods as part of their breeding program - let's face it, the Europeans have been using the best of TBs for a long time!
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now i just think you lashing out, thats fine, i see your struggling to cope!! i think in this world there are somethings that we are never going to understand, maybe for you KR this is one one of those, i wouldnt worry about it just let it go. Im sure you have something better to do!
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i'm not sure what alleycat's question was but this may help...

jaguar mail may be 81.64% TB however unlike the vast majority of TBs his pedigree is totally directed towards showjumping not racing or any other discipline.

his father hand in glove xx was a grand prix showjumper, his mother who was a SF mare was by Laudanum xx who competed at grand prix level, jumped puissances and competed on nations cup teams. to top off his pedigree we have alme one of the most influential stallions in europe. combining these 3 stallions produced a SF that was able to compete at the olympics in show jumping.

so even if you consider him to be a TB you have to appreciate the fact that he is bred to jump not to race and that he has descended for a SF motherline, the most important part of the pedigree, not a TB line.
 
DD
The TBs in JM pedigree were bred to race first & foremost though & as it turned out they were better at jumping. Hand in Glove did race I think. That is why I believe TBs that can jump are to be found in the UK - how to find them though
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By this I am not saying that TBs are better or more desirable than Wbs etc but I think if someone found a very good jumping TB stallion they could do well.
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jaguar mail may be 81.64% TB however unlike the vast majority of TBs his pedigree is totally directed towards showjumping not racing or any other discipline.


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JMs father, Hand in Glove was by Best Turn (by Turn To) out of Miss Betty (by Buckpasser). I surely don't need to elaborate on the racing significance of THESE names.

Hand in Glove himself raced (& won) as a two year old. I just checked my details here because I was sure he also won in dressage, but this seemed too fantastic. But- yes, he did- dressage (level St Georges) until age 8, after which he switched to show jumping.

Laudanum was also racing bred though utilised as a sports horse; he was by Boran. Don't know the dam, but her grandparents certainly raced.

Alme himself may have been longer assimilated into sportshorse breeding; but again we're looking at tbs ultimately from famous racing lines with Anglo Norman- originally smart trotting cobs, I think, related to our early hackneys (hence the Anglo?) on his bottom line.

JMs motherline, of course, doesn't stem from Alme but from the mare that Alme covered; & wasn't she German?

Two things occur to me here;

1. That I have been doing Ken's work for him re. the amazing performance record of Jaguar's dad,

and

2. That dannydunne's ignorance & innocence as to the true origins of these famous and (in this country) quite common TB bloodlines does more to support my arguments than anything I could have come up with myself.
 
Have come back to add, given the mud slinging that we have seen on here recently, that I meant "ignorance" as a literal term, not as a personal insult to DD who was, I realise, making a valid enough point & trying to help.

Sorry DD; if I was a bit sharp, it wasn't meant for you personally but for a system that seems to disempower us as breeders because we believe the hype about the inevitable superiority of Continental breeding and don't see that our true problems lie elsewhere.
 
Who cares where they come from?? Is it not who rides them that counts?? Where does it say.. this horse was born in britain?? They breed, we produce..we sell..they win. Full circle.
 
yes she was by gottard out of a hann mare.

i gathered these lines were from racing origins but my knowledge of pedigrees is focused on showjumping so to me on paper it seems that he was bred to jump by a breeder aiming to produce a jumper not a race horse
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tell me if i'm wrong!


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if someone found a very good jumping TB stallion they could do well.

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i dont disagree but its testing and proving them that would be the problem in the short term. in one interview i read it seems that the most likely places to find a TB stallion for jumping would be south america, NZ or AUS.
 
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i dont disagree but its testing and proving them that would be the problem in the short term. in one interview i read it seems that the most likely places to find a TB stallion for jumping would be south america, NZ or AUS.

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You'll certainly find good jumping TBs in Australia and New Zealand - can't comment on South America. Funnily enough, I had one years ago (although he was a failed racer over jumps - and a gelding) but he went on to become one of the top showjumpers of his day and was sold - for a VERY considerable sum at that time - to


(wait for it)



a TOP Belgian showjumping rider!!
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Now why on EARTH would a top Belgian showjumper - with a wealth of Warmblood talent available - buy a TB showjumper from Oz!
 
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I guess it's not been very clear over the last six or seven months. I am only interested in performance horses.


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I apologise unreservedly for not taking enough notice of you or your posts to have realised that,


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Performance is about only one thing, WINNING.


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Really...........so striving for improvement & personal satisfaction have no value then?



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I see these arguements all the time, and it's so funny to see people so desperately uncomfortable with change.


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Well I'm certainly not uncomfortable with anyone breeding anything they like & using whatever stallions they choose. How odd that you think anyone's (imagined in this case) discomfort is funny though..................


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Hilariously, those on this board who actually breed horses for these disciplines do not disagree with me even 1%.


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Don't they ?



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Here's a little insight into the truth; if anyone can find, create develop a breed/type of horse that can make 16 jumping attempts at 1.65m inside the time, I'll be there buying ALL your stock and breeding to your stallions. Regardless of colour, shape or nationality. PERFORMANCE IS ONLY ABOUT WINNING.


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I'm afraid I wouldn't sell any of my stock to anyone with that kind of win at all costs attitude.


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Hilariously, several of you think that what I say is "Ken's point of view/opinion". WRONG. It's not an opinion, it's a fact. Because some here comment based on their opinion, they believe that what I have to say is only opinion. It is not.


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Hilariously your own opinion of yourself would seem to be awfully high !! Do you need any people skills to be a semen agent? Because if I did decide to use one of the foreign "super stallions" I think I'd want to deal with someone a tad less arogant............



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if you don't want to raise standards, that's your right.


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Why thank you so much


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Resistance is futile, if you have nothing better (or even close) to offer as an alternative. And you don't.


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I've never claimed to have anything better to offer. I (along with a fair few others) are merely trying to point out to you that many horses in this country are not bred entirely for competition, but for people to enjoy. (Broaden your horizons so to speak)


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and carrying on bitchin' about the state of British breeding in 20 years time. And you won't blame yourself because, of course, if you do nothing you can't do anything wrong...................right?


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Sorry? I've never bitched about British breeding & I doubt I ever will to be honest


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BTW, it's Mr Melchior.


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?????

As you rightly said this was supposed to be a debate. Ranting at anyone who doesn't agree with your opinions (oops sorry....'facts') hardly fits my definition of a debate. However I take on board that your interests lie soley with performance & producing world class horses. Best of luck in your quest.
 
Is it just me that finds this whole thread slightly ridiculous??

If you care to look through the pedigrees of European stallions you will find in the main, they contain blood from ALL OVER THE WORLD. It's just ignorant to say they are European just because that's where they are physically located. Wherever they are located the majority of European warmbloods are just mongrels of the equine world. They carry the blood and genes of horses from America, England, Ireland, Saudi Arabia... I could go on for a LOOOOOONG time. I'm just a little tired of the whole snobbery around stud books and letters after names, it means very little to me to be frank.

It seems to me that wherever a stallion stands seems to determine it's Nationality which is equally ridiculous. It is amazing how Cavalier Royale is now Irish, and Stravinsky was Swedish for a while....

When I breed, I personally look at the bloodline - the genetics - not which biased grading panel chose to approve it, or which big name breeder happened to breed it. If a horse is right for my breeding programme it's right because the genetics are there, the conformation and movement are there, the temperament is there and above all else, IT'S RIGHT FOR MY MARE.

That could mean I use a horse that has a 'European' approval - such as Jaguar Mail, but I'm actually using it for the American blood primarily because I love Hand in Glove. I think people should just get over themselves a bit and realise that whilst they might spout about how great the label on the tin is, it's actually the contents that I'm interested in i.e. the genes. The genes of many 'European' horses are in many cases, not from continental Europe at all.

The truth of the matter in this debate seems to me to be that for jumping and dressage, the most successful sire lines are PHYSICALLY located in Europe regardless of their genetic heritage. However, the eventing sires are only emerging in Europe because THEY copied OUR model for breeding eventers - infusing lots of TB blood. A classic example is Mighty Magic - a classic Holsteiner (NOT!) - check out it's pedigree here:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/mighty+magic4
 
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