Foreign stallions- the only way that British breeding can progress -

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BTW, it's Mr Melchior.


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That was directed at me because I made a spelling mistake.
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I am disappointed that the rest of my post - basically saying there are contextual, social and economic aspects to producing sport horses and that systems are not necessarily transferable as whole cloth - was not minutely dissected and disproved, though. I feel very unloved.
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By breeding the best, you raise the average, thus the residuals end up in the amateur market. There's nothing wrong with that, it just means that the average riders performence will improve. I'm still not seeing a problem here.

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You obviously do not get round the lower end dressage competitions in the UK and SEE what happens when an average rider gets one of those 'residuals'. Often it means they're on a horse they can't ride one side of - and they're getting trounced - at Prelim & Novice - by nice little Irish Sport horses!
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And not 'modern' Irish sport horses (by Warmbloods) but traditional Irish Draught Sport Horses!

I've had 4 of those 'residuals' on my place in the last 6 months. One was SO hot it's owner couldn't ride it - so she put it in foal to a posh imported Warmblood. It came here for foaling - and there's no WAY she'll ride the foal either. It spent its first 3 months demonstrating what a foal on speed looks and behaves like!! AND they're threatening to bring the damn thing to us for backing - my jockey will need his 'chute!

The other 3 were bought as competition horses for ambitious amateurs - and all 3 had proved too much for those riders. One has now been retired to stud - the other 2 - with a LOT of work from us (on both the horses AND the riders) MAY go on to do the job. Before you tell me that's a very small sample, I'd agree, it is - but I could point you to at LEAST a dozen other professionals who'd tell you the same.

I'm sure not ALL Warmbloods are too 'hot' for amateur riders - but a hell of a lot of them are. IMHO, there are two markets - the 'professional' competition market - and the keen Amateur market (for riders whose ambition is to perhaps get to Medium dressage, or Intermediate eventing) and the 'failures' for one market WON'T generally suit the other!

I say 'generally' because there are exceptions, of course. I have one here who is by Lombardo (KWPN) by Guidam deRevel. And literally ANYONE who could climb on a 17hh horse could ride him - and be safe. But then he IS out of a 'proper' ISH mare - from whence the brain came.
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JG this post shook me up a bit! I have to admit that until I read this, I actually agreed with KR on this point - that more UK breeders should be aiming to breed really top-class competition horses, and that the inevitable majority that don't quite make the grade at top level (the 'residuals') would then still be fantastic RC allrounders or Novice eventers or Medium dressage or whatever.

I thought that these 'residuals' would surely be better than the horses 'ordinary' riders have atm, and better than we would breed/are breeding by setting our sights lower. I thought 'why shouldn't 'ordinary' riders have more athletic, high-quality, well-bred horses to do PN eventing or Novice dressage on?' Surely standards of riding and breeding would improve across the board as a result, and everyone would be happy?

I'm really upset at having to abandon this rosy theory, but if what you say is true - about most high-bred competition WBs being too hot or too much horse for amateur riders - then I will very reluctantly have to let it go.

Golly I do HATE it when my most cherished theories and opinions do not fit the facts and realities. But thank you for 'opening my eyes'!
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I would have to agree with JG at least in general. Unfortunately I think at least some amateur riders (not to be uncomplimentary to amateurs, just to use a common designation) are most attracted to the least suitable horses particularly because they look the most dramatic and they have little knowledge or experience of what managing and riding such a horse can involve.

I once "fired" a client because she has bred a TB x Amiral filly (because she "liked his trot") and expected to use the horse for all around riding and happy hacking. I would have been hard pressed to find a horse LESS suitable for a relatively inexperienced, unfit person to enjoy a day on the trails with. Big moving, sensitive, forward thinking, spooky . . . perfect. She wanted the horse "made suitable" and while this can SOMETIMES be done it's usually done by making the horse "less" (sometimes by literally making it less athletic) and even then, in this case, I couldn't really see that happening. So we parted ways and she found someone else to tell her what she wanted to hear. The next week I spent a few hours in Emergency with her after the horse got rolling, panicked when she lost her balance, turned itself inside out, and kicked her on the way down in it's fear. So she stopped riding it . . . and bred it.

You don't get to pick what parts of the horse you get. A horse with an "olympic" mind that isn't sound or well conformed or sane enough to do whatever job it's for is not going to work out well. What's worse, if the horse IS suitable but ends up in the wrong situation it will - quite understandably - use its athleticism in service of the wrong ends.

Of course, many warmbloods have lovely temperaments but even that's not all it's about. Big movement, back cracking jumps; long, athletic hard to stabilise necks - these things don't actually make horses EASIER to ride. More fun - if you're into that sort of thing - sure. More competitive? Absolutely. Essentially so. But then F1 cars are fantastic . . . just not for driving to the store.

And what the stud books recognise as "good" temperaments is not always what people think. What they want are "ridability" and a "competitive temperament", which doesn't mean naturally quiet or suitable for any task.

Which is not to say I'm not in favour of custom breeding. But people have to understand that just because a horse belongs to a certain book doesn't mean its a certain way. Certain bloodlines ARE more suitable but in my experience many people are more attracted to the horse with successful relatives than pleasant ones. And mixing the high powered with the average is even more dangerous - what if you get a not so great conformed package with Salinero's brain in it? (Yes, I know what *should* happen but that goes back to my culling point . . .)

So no, "cast offs" are just that - horses that didn't make the grade. Sport specific breeding should ideally be just that - breeding horses for specific niches, not hoping one bred for one job will do another by fluke . . . after all, isn't that exactly the point?
 
in my oppinion most of the foreign horses that we have bought that havent been good enough to produce as jumpers tend to lack the edge, spirit and fight of the better ones i get to ride. sometimes a horse can almost be too nice. its the same with people... top atheletes and successful buisiness people are good examples. they tend to have a edge to them, a will to succeed, a certain air about them the list goes on. the vast majority of people have some of these traits but never excel like others do.

as i said earlier in the post we have a livery yard, riding school and dealing business. i'd honestly say that over the past few years the quality of horses that we have been selling has improved (both british bred and foreign) and at the same time i'd say the people buying them improve so much more as they are given opportunities they never had. it also has a knock on effect that we are now seeing where the younger kids wanting to be like the older ones who for the 1st year have been able to go to shows like scope, bicton, wales and compete at a level where it wasn't possible in the past.

obviously all horses are different and i wouldn't agree on flooding the country with continental horses but in a controlled enviroment like we have at our yard where the liveries can come to us for advice, lessons, schooling the results speak for themselves.

just today we had a young girl who has been a livery for several years buy a 15.2 bay mare by careful (contender) out of a darco mare who was bred at schockemohles, they are perfectly suited and she will do things now that she only dreamed she could do in the past. we also have a guy who isn't the best and never will but his dream is to jump bn next year. we managed to find him a 17hh bwp who ticks all the boxes and the guy is a totally different rider to what he was 4 months ago and is on his way to achieving what he wants.

i also mentioned that most continental stud books aim to breed horses for every level of rider not just the big boys because at the end of the day there are 1000s more customers for those types. when animals are tested in sport and grading it becomes clear that certain horses have the ability and mental strength to make it to the top and the others dont. the problem arises when you get trickier horses with a lack of talent but in they generally end up in the food chain and never see our shores... how many dealers would want to buy crazy horses with no talent that they are going to have problems selling... not many! it'll only come back and bite them and if they do they are either very stupid or sorry.

if you dont agree thats fine, its just a trend that i have seen where i am not the country in general but it goes to show that with a bit of support its not all doom and gloom
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So no, "cast offs" are just that - horses that didn't make the grade. Sport specific breeding should ideally be just that - breeding horses for specific niches, not hoping one bred for one job will do another by fluke . . . after all, isn't that exactly the point?

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You are SO right! The horse who has been carefully bred to be a potential International showjumper or Grand Prix dressage horse but who - in the end - doesn't jump well enough, or whatever - is NOT necessarily going to be a nice, safe horse for the keen Amateur to do a bit of Novice jumping and some low level dressage.

The keen Amateur also needs a purpose-bred horse - a horse with decent conformation and movement but - MOST important - with the right sort of tenperament! A horse they can ENJOY - and be safe on while having fun! But which still has enough quality and scope to be competitive - at least at the lower levels. A horse like the one shown here: Perfect Amateur Rider's All-rounder

No - she's not for sale. I bred her and sold her at the beginning of this year - not quite 4 - backed and hacking out quietly. She qualified for the Areas at her first BD outing, and for the Regionals at her 2nd (once rider had joined BD!
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) She beat a LOT of poncy Warmbloods who were dashing around - largely out of control! She's jumping clear rounds for fun and will have her first Eventing start soon. She's behaved beautifully everywhere she's been. I'm VERY proud of her (as is her owner!). She'll probably not get past Medium dressage, or Novice - maybe Intermediate eventing. But she'll give her rider an enormous amount of pleasure, a fair bit of success in MORE than one discipline, and virtually no headaches! AND she's on the front cover of Horse Magazine this month!

I don't think I'm wasting my time breeding and producing horses like her - although I won't make a fortune doing it! She's by my Raj out of a very smart IDSH mare (RIDxTB) who did a bit of low-level eventing before moving into hunt service - carrying the horn at both the High Peak and the United.
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I would agree completely with you, dd, but you are still talking about people with competitive aims and who have the support to choose and develop APPROPRIATE (not necessarily the "best" by absolute standards) horses for their situations.

The gains in general quality have been incredible in the last couple of decades. You used to see one or two "stars", a few "very good" horses (good conformation, sound, sane, reasonably talented) a bunch that had some good qualities but a few holes, and a bunch that had obvious problems. Now the top groups a MUCH larger and the bottom one hardly exists. The average horse is better constructed, scopier and more "suitable" than ever before. And I think riding and training programs have at least more or less kept pace. Despite people going on about the "good old days" from the point of numbers, there's no comparison.

And really it's ALL the result of custom, specialised breeding. Breed the best to the best and hope for the best.

Your comment about the horses that don't make the grade is telling though . . . how well do you think that works in a domestic market, where many horses are bred by single/first mare owners who don't have the same knowledge of bloodlines and production? I'll agree that the vast majority of continental breeders and dealers DO understand crazy horses with no talent are to be avoided/removed at all costs but I'm not sure the same applies when the same lines are used outside of that situation.

Do you find that the horses that generally suit your more amateur clients are the ones bred for the top that didn't make it or, as you suggest, ones bred specifically for that market? Do you think the same lines produce both types? Is it just a case of a talented horse lacking motivation/drive/edge being good general riding horses or are they, in fact, different types? (I know there are lines that do both - Darco bred horses are sought after for amateurs in North America - but there are other top competition lines many professionals would generally steer clear of for clients.)

It's all a bit off the original conversation but it does go back to the idea of "purpose breeding" and whether or not everyone needs to be breeding to an Olympic producer if their goal is to do RC. (Again, I still think this is a case for custom breeding but I'm not sure that always means the absolute most talented horses one can get one's hands on, particularly if culling and proper production aren't other parts of the system.)
 
Going back to the breeding rather than the pro vs amatuer discussion which I' not brave enough to comment on
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I agree with Julia that we should be striving to improve our standards and breeding programmes independently to where a particular horse happens to be based. It seems very short sighted to me to exclude a whole raft of horses because of where they are. Instead of debating whether TBs are superior to warmbloods and vice versa can we not appreciate the influence that these and other breeds have had in a variety of disciplines?

I think it is crucial to know what you are breeding for, if like Ken you are out to produce a top flight sportshorse then it seems sensible to look in all areas to produce the best foal you possibly can from your mare. It could be argued that the foreign studbooks make it eaiser to use their stallions as you will have easy access to breeding and performance details going back several generations so that you can make an informed selection. BTW I'm not suggesting that you can't do this with British stallions, it is just my opinion that in the UK some studs and studbooks are much more user friendly than others. I do think that this is something that we are gettinf much better at and hopefully NED will go someway towards improving this as well.

Still on the same point (sorry!) I also agree that not everybody wants a world class horse but for those breeders who are trying to produce genuine, safe riding club horses surely the same breeding principals are just as crucial but just with a different set of selection criteria? What I mean is that you are always trying to improve, always trying to produce a better animal but better for your chosen market whatever that might be.

Back to performance horses for a bit, I have just returned from the Olympics in Hong Kong. Whilst out there I read a really interesting interview with Heath Ryan a key member of the Australian dressage team. In the article he stated that the Australian team had made huge advances in the sport and was aiming for a top 8 position this games and a top 3 in 2012. He also said that the biggest limiting factor for the Australians at present was the quality of horses. He likened it to atheletes having superior equipment in other sports such as the super dooper swimming cossies or bikes that have helped us to our record medal tally. He said that it was no coincedence that the two countries (Germany and Holland) who's long established breeding programmes have traditionally produced superior horses have dominated the medals in dressage.

Interestingly the Australian approach is to use the best of these breeding programmes to improve their own. According to the South China Morning Post (so I'm happy to stand corrected on this one!) Australia now imports more frozen semen from Germany and Holland than any other country. They have identified their own strengths such as having enormous amounts of land which is well suited to horse breeding and have added the strengths of others.

In my opinion this is what the UK must do, we must identify our strengths as well as our weaknesses in order to move forward. I for one will be watching Australia with interest over the coming years to see if their approach is working.

Sorry this has been so long, I've been up since 4.30am with jet lag so am not all that coherent!
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I would have to agree with JG at least in general. Unfortunately I think at least some amateur riders (not to be uncomplimentary to amateurs, just to use a common designation) are most attracted to the least suitable horses particularly because they look the most dramatic and they have little knowledge or experience of what managing and riding such a horse can involve.

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I totally agree with you, my current eventer is highly bred to be such, I got him as a 10yo, he was given to me as his old owner gave up horses!!
He had been bought by a friend of a friend as a 4yo, she was albeit and amateur but loaded so wanted a horse that looked like he could do Badminton ....just because she felt the need to compete with the quality of the other peopled horses on the livery yard!!
During the 6 years of owning him he was ridden a few times by a pro and did well but with his owner he took the mick and thoroughly scared her. As money was no object she went on to buy 2 more very high quality expensive horses during that time and they all ended up being virtually given away!!

I love and hate my chap!! He is lovely to look at, moves beautifully, jumps like a stag but is also complexed and sensitive and by no means and easy ride. He has to a degree been ruined by inexperience!
I would never been able to buy him and I'm grateful I was given him but I also wouldn't have bought him as he is far more capable than I am brave!! I can't say I would have done better had I had him as a 4yo as I too am an amateur with not enough experience for a horse like him! I truely believe that if he had gone to a pro at 4yo he would now be at the top of the sport!
I should have sold him as soon as I got him but he has also taken me further than I would have gone without ever having him, also his old owner wanted him to go to a permanent long term home and as I paid nothing for him I couldn't really turn around and sell him!! He is now 13yo and i do feel sometimes that I have let him down and I should have let him go to someone more experienced than me but its probably too late now for him to realise his full potential!!
 
My IDx has done everything i have ever asked of her, she will try her heart out over anything up to about 1.30, She has taken me to the Main ring at Hickstead several times, jumps ditches, water and walls. But she thinks showjumping is a contact sport and will regularly have 4 faults. She hacks out in the heaviest of traffic, loves hunting, plods around with my 3 year old niece and 6 month old nephew on her back, and works beautifully on the flat for my friend who is paralyzed from the waist down.
I also have very well bred showjumper with an amazing athletic jump (both parents Nations Cup) , he is my dream horse as far as competing is concerned. But ask him to do anything else or alter his routine and he gets very upset. There's no way i would trust him on a main road, no way i'd trust him to carry the Kids, no way he'd stand rock still whilst 4 people lift my friend onto his back, and ignore her legs when they go into spasm.
If i had to choose 1 of them it would be my IDx. Not all are after Olympic horses, most are after good solid all rounders.
I feel for the majority of 1 horse owners our draught x's and native x's are the best option and i hope there will always be a strong market for them.
 
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Thanks everybody for your thoughts, which have been interesting and enlightening. I do think we can learn lessons here about promoting our good stallions, whether their progeny are best directed at international competition or more suitable for good amateur homes.
Of course, as many hove pointed out, injections of good bloodlines from elsewhere should be included - but just maybe one day we will be at a place where buyers from other countries will attending our foal shows and gradings in sufficient numbers to make a real impact.
 
Quote " have let him down and I should have let him go to someone more experienced than me but its probably too late now for him to realise his full potential!!

Please dont take this as a dig at you FF, but horses are incapable of regreting anything let alone not acheiving their full potential, that is a human trait, thererfore you cant have let him down. As I said this is not a dig, but there is no need for humans to beat themselves up over this issue.
 
My stallions that compete and win BSJA/FEI have covered a variety of mares from clydies, fells, welshies!! haflingers, traditional cobs, shires, grade A warmblood, TB "chuckouts" grand prix dressage mares and advanced eventers. If mare owners want to upgrade their clydie etc, bloody good on 'em. Ditto to the ones breeding from proven competition horses. Each to their own, and good luck to all
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Could the difference be the huge numbers bred in Europe and the percentage of good horses versus those gone to meat etc, as I have seen many many poor imported horses not only in serious conformation problems but also in talent! I wonder what the percentage of good versus sub standard for both say Belgium versus UK actually is, including all those UK breed horses being ridden by European riders that people who diss UK bred horses like to simply forget about made easier by our lack of recording our horses!!

There is no doubting there are bad Stallions in the UK but also in Europe! Many proven Stallions are also unable to pass on any talent, I can not understand this common misconception in this country.
 
As others have mentioned, the important thing is to find the stallion that best compliments your mare - whether its 5 minutes down the road, the other side of the UK, in Europe or in the US or where-ever. It may be of the same breed or a different breed. I don't think the use of foreign stallions is the ONLY way British breeding can progress but it is probably the most efficient and quickest way. Why limit yourself to the UK when the world is your oyster?

There have been a few quite patronising views on amateur riders and some very odd assumptions re different breeds of horse. On Sunday I went to a BD comp where I saw a variety of horses, including a welsh Section D, a clydesdale cross, an andulusian and other assorted horses that could be warmblood or TB or ID or a cross of any of these combined. Everyone seemed quite happy with their own horse whatever its breed, nationality or temprement but most importantly, I didn't see 'residuals' of any breed/type.

Every breed/type will have its 'residuals' and such horses may not be suitable for any use - they are inevitably cheep which is why they are bought for a purpose for which they are not suited. The residual warmbloods from what has been said here seem to end up with amateurs that are overhorsed. The residuals aimed at the amateur market I assume go from pillar to post through sales or for meat. Neither is a nice fate so surely breeders aiming for competition AND breeders aming for the amateur market should aim to breed the best they can using the best mares and stallions - whatever breed and wherever they are located.

I like pretty much all breeds of horse. I have had wonderful ID's, IDxTB's, pure TB's, anglo arabs and warmbloods. As an amateur that likes dressage (but also jumps and is a happy hacker too) my preference is for a top class warmblood bred to perform at the highest level. My horses are not residuals - therefore they have good sane temprements, are sound, have good conformation and although sharp are easily manageable for an amateur like me. If the only warmbloods people here have experienced are residuals then I can understand their prejudice and odd (to me at least) views on temprement - I wouldn't touch one of these warmblood residuals with a bardgepole either. But then perhaps warmblood owners that see the ID or TB or arab as breeds can't perform and have little use in competitio is because similarly they have only seen residuals and have not owned or ridden a top class example of those breeds.

Of course at the end of the day we have our preferences but it seems sad when we can't appreciate the beauty and talents of different breeds
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I think this is a really valid pint. When the Europeans are producing tens of thousands of horses bred for dressage & SJ, they are going to get lots which are unsuitable & go for meat and lots which are good.
We don't have the same levels of wastage & I really wonder whether we want to emulate those methods at the expense of so many horses. (We do so already with TB's & surely that is enough)

Proportionally, how bad are we really......
 
I have just recently bought my first Foreign horse, he is by Grandeur (won german derby 3 times and over 1.5m) he is 11 yrs old and i can honestly say he is the classiest, beautiful temperament, bompproof hack and a rolls royce to jump.... up until this point i have had mainly T.B.s a number of welsh in past (often very quirky) i used to ride a horse by hill farmer ID which was a complete fruitcake... If the breeders are trying to breed horses like my boy, (he came from Milltoo Stud in Belgium) then all credit to them, i am an amateur top end riding club type person, lower level affiliated and i would rather ride something to a jump knowing it had the scope to go much higher than riding something which is already at its limit at 1.10. After riding my horse, this honestly has to be the way, he is something else!
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Some interesting statistics about the sires of the top (section champions and reserves) dressage, showjumping and event horses at the Futurity Finals:

5 sires out of 6 were owned by UK stallion owners (only sire of champ in dressage was not, the sire of the reserve champ is of course owned by an HHO member :-)
4 sires out of 6 sires are / or were based in the UK (sires of champs and reserves in both showjumping and eventing)
3 out of 6 sires were bred in the UK (the sire of the res ch in eventing also sired the sire of the champion in that section)
3 out of the 6 sires were bred by HHO forum members :-)

All of the UK-bred sires were at least 50% imported warmblood bloodlines in origin.

So I suppose it all depends upon how you define 'foreign' as to how far the argument goes, and what discipline you are interested in.
 
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Don't you just LOVE "facts"
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Promotion of British Breeding isn't just about trying to get the 'right' day for a stallion parade at Burghley <ROFL>
 
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All of the UK-bred sires were at least 50% imported warmblood bloodlines in origin.

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...at what point did you stop counting them as 'warmblood in origin' and start counting them as English TB imports to Europe again LOL!!
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My stallion's nearest 'imported genes' are 2 generations back on his sire's side and much further back in his dam line, which is quite a long way in breeding terms. If he'd been bred in Europe and had an English TB in his 2nd generation, they would have no quarms about called him European.

His dam's bottom line is 100% TB.

My boy is British Bred and proud of it
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Fleetwater Opposition was bred here but had full TBF (or its equivalent at that time) papers as his sire was a Muschamp Danube (a German Trakehner) and his dam Oplot was a Russian Trakehner mare so is -- using wb stud book criteria -- he is defintely a wb of 100 foreign bloodlines. He supplied 50% of the genes of your stallion Louis so he in turn is 50% foreign bloodlines. Louis' foal is presumably 25% foreign as a result so that's where the statement comes from.
 
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Banned

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I heard he was just 'suspended' for a week - but I could be wrong.

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Well i suppose we will soon see if he is back after Burghley or not
 
I think you'll find he is at the Fences sale this week seeing how much 'properly bred' horses are fetching!!!!!

But seriously the only way forward British breeding can progress is to improve the standard of the mares we breed from. We all know that the mare can contribute as much as 80% of the make up of her foal so it is pretty irrelevent what and where the stallions come from if we dont improve our mare base.
Look at all the mare shows, loose jumping and mare tests they do in Europe and what do we do here?
This is where we should learn from the Europeans.
We can't generalise about all warmbloods being too sharp for amatuers etc as there are 'too sharp' ones in every breed...it comes from the mare. I have had TB's who are sharp ones and some that are donkeys, IDx's most of these I have to say were sharp but I guess they used the ID on a sharp mare to calm her down but it doesn't always follow. We now have mainly WB'S and wouldn't have a sharp one on the place but I have to say as a rule I think they are generally very laid back (if not lazy), easy to ride and deal with. We have however made a concious effort when chosing our broodmares to pick ones with good temprements and rideability and then you can play about with the stallions you choose for whatever market you are aiming at regardless of where they come from.
We are aiming to breed an Olympic horse and use the best stallions we can (we all have to have a dream) but I can guarantee (as far as you can in breeding) that they will all have the right temprements for an amateur if not good enough because hopefully our mares will ensure that.

So once 'British Breeding' does something for our mare base the question of stallions will not be so important as the mares should be better than them!
 
Picking up on greymares point about the mare base, I see more people looking to take their mares for grading these days, and I am lucky that with my Trakehner mares I can get a through assessment of them at their grading plus I can access a lot of info and knowledge on their own motherlines to help with breeding selection

And that is what is so hard with many British mares - finding and researching family history (from the motherline). I have a lovely Broadstone bred mare that produces corking foals, I know exactly what her dam acheived and some idea of what her offspring did. Beyond that - nothing on the dam side. Until the NED is providing the sort of data we need as a breeders, we will all have that extra hurdle to overcome compared to our European neighbours.

On a similar note, has anyone thought of, or taken, their mare to the NASTA performance test, if she is not registered with a society that does its own performance testing?
 
Oh I didn't know you could do NASTA for mares that's great. I have a mare and filly which I want to have graded. Filly is no issue as she should make 15hh approx so I think I will go to SPSS. Mare has irish passport - Holstein sire and ID/TB dam, what are my options for grading her - are there any gradings where they loose jump? Maybe I should start a new topic?
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