Forever fat cob

Bellaboo18 said:
He looks a lovely chap.
Lots of already good suggestions but also would it be possible to make more of a track in the field instead of strip grazing? It made a huge difference to my mare. I appreciate it's hard this time of year depending on your soil type.
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We did over summer but as half the field is Clay we had to close half of it, will speak with YO tomorrow, see if we can
 
I feed oat straw 40% and meadow hay 60% add lib quantities very well mixed together, to my maxi cob, all goes into a haycube for half hour soak then netted in multiple nets. She has lost a lot of weight and does a fair bit of hacking.

The colic risk can be dealt with by getting more fluid into the horse when it is eating straw as part of the diet. I make a warm squash of 10/15 litres and offer it 4 times a day. She pees for England but her gut keeps moving and pushing the straw through.

Alongside a top quality senior balancer, natural Vit E and only 2 hours grazing per day which is split into 2 sessions, I have a fit, happy and forward going horse.

I would be very careful about leaving deep barrelled horses, especially mares, without long fibre to munch on for too many hours. I did restrict mine and very nearly paid for it with her life. She displaced 4 times because she was too empty for too long.
 
motherof2beasts! said:
Thank you that’s really helpful. It’s such a fine balance as if I give him less hay and he’s standing 10-6 with nothing he’ll end up with ulcers. He is on a daily balancer (TB daily essentials which is a powder for good doers).
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It’s difficult spacing out hay nets, especially in winter if theyre in for longer hours too.
That TB balancer actually is quite good, compared to many. I’d definitely be giving the full 50g dose/ 2 scoops of it daily.
 
PurBee said:
It’s difficult spacing out hay nets, especially in winter if theyre in for longer hours too.
That TB balancer actually is quite good, compared to many. I’d definitely be giving the full 50g dose/ 2 scoops of it daily.
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I have managed to persuade the other half to do a 9pm hay net for me, so moving in the right direction.
 
Well, you've had a lot of mixed and conflicting responses so far! 😂

Firstly, I'm sorry about your dog :(

Secondly, I'm not an expert, and I'm not claiming to be one, but I have two EMS ponies (one has had a previous lami episode) so have read quite a lot around the subject.

Thirdly, I'm not telling you what to do, I'm suggesting what I would probably do if I were in your situation (which I kind of am/have been 😂).

For losing weight I want to feed around 1.5% of bodyweight per day. For an average 15.2hh cob of 550kg that's 8.25kg. For maintaining weight I want to feed 2% which would be 11kg. This includes everything that is consumed - hay, grass, hard feed.

8kg hay (even soaked) is probably a little on the excessive side, but I wouldn't reduce it much - maybe down to 7kg. I would soak for an hour.

I would soak half a mug of dried speedibeet and use that to feed supplements.

I wouldn't really bother with the top chop, but I also wouldn't see it as a particular issue to continue feeding it if he enjoyed it.

I would definitely use a muzzle (flexible filly or similar), even with the asthma (one of mine has respiratory issues). This is probably the second-most impactful change that could be made.

The first-most impactful is to up the exercise.

From your current feeding regime there isn't actually that much to cut out (except muzzling), so if you can't reasonably feed less, he needs to move more.

It wasn't fat shaming, you're concerned and want to take action for him to be healthier, there's no shame in that 🥰
 
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Bellaboo18 said:
He looks a lovely chap.
Lots of already good suggestions but also would it be possible to make more of a track in the field instead of strip grazing? It made a huge difference to my mare. I appreciate it's hard this time of year depending on your soil type.
Click to expand...
I put a track around my field too and it did help. It wasn't a proper 'track system' as it had none of the bells and whistles that are packaged as part of that, but as a simple 'get them moving more', it works.
 
My cobby types have never been slim, but now I have a proper fat one triggered by steroids in the spring and I've just been trying to maintain all summer with the plan to get it off in winter.

Human research shows that everybody is different. We have different gut bacteria and our blood sugar reacts differently to the same foods and our insulin responses and sensitivities are all different. Yes, we'll all waste away if we starve but you can make thin people fat by injecting insulin or swapping their gut bacteria without changing their diet, and people don't actually burn more calories when they exercise more, they just rest more, fidget less, sleep better and shut down non essential systems (fertility, immune) if it gets extreme. So 'eat less move more' isn't the simple solution it sounds.

With humans insulin response and resistance seems most promising. If you have poor insulin sensitivity you can increase it with exercise, low carb and fasting without reducing calorie intake. Some herbs and foods, reducing stress and good quality sleep have an effect too.

I'm not aware of any research on horses (plenty on rats). We can't low carb horses and we can't fast them for extended periods without physical and possibly mental implications. We can exercise them, and we can allow fasting periods between haynets - I'd feel comfortable with maybe 3 hours between nets.

I think what @Red-1 did above is perfect, it's intermittent fasting equine style. Add in regular exercise, a low stress environment and possibly some complimentary food stuffs and you're doing all you can.

Sorry for the brain dump, I'm trying to get a plan together for my own fat cob.

Can supply citation tomorrow if anyone wants.
 
On straw, I really didn't want to feed it because I agree it's a risk unless you can get organic - not a hope!

I am feeding, I've tried a tub of chaff and mixing with hay.

TCZ is too palatable. Honey chop stuff doesn't get touched, and the point is to eat it if hungry!

Mixed with hay some does get eaten but most is left and it takes her longer to pick out the hay so this may be the way forward if I can't figure out a way to feed hay at 6 hour intervals.
 
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JenJ said:
I'd be interested to see conclusive evidence of this, as it goes against basic science, surely?
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It goes against the first law of thermodynamics, but that only applies to efficient machines.

I will find the studies, there's a great one comparing traditional hunter gatherer tribes to office workers showing they burn the same calories. I want to say it's by Herman Munster, its not!

For an easy Google look at the aftermath of the biggest loser experiment/TV show. Those poor people can barely eat anything now despite expending the average 2k calories a day.

Edit Herman Ponzer! I'll find his research tomorrow but here's a 12 year old BBC article, it's too late to engage the brain!
www.bbc.co.uk

Hunter gatherer clue to obesity

The idea that exercise is more important than diet in the fight against obesity has been contradicted by new research.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk
 
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It’s definitely an exercise thing imo, I’d generally work him to build up a sweat, perhaps get him doing some basic schooling so he starts to use some muscles. I don’t know how much he can do with the asthma though? or does it not affect him when ridden?
 
I didn't increase my mare's exercise, in fact she probably got less exercise with me than she did in her previous home. Because her intake wasn't restricted, although her calories were, she learned to self-regulate over time. It took about 2 yrs to get her back to an acceptable weight, by then, we could dispense with almost all of the oat straw chaff.
 
Jambarissa said:
It goes against the first law of thermodynamics, but that only applies to efficient machines.

I will find the studies, there's a great one comparing traditional hunter gatherer tribes to office workers showing they burn the same calories. I want to say it's by Herman Munster, its not!

For an easy Google look at the aftermath of the biggest loser experiment/TV show. Those poor people can barely eat anything now despite expending the average 2k calories a day.

Edit Herman Ponzer! I'll find his research tomorrow but here's a 12 year old BBC article, it's too late to engage the brain!
www.bbc.co.uk

Hunter gatherer clue to obesity

The idea that exercise is more important than diet in the fight against obesity has been contradicted by new research.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk
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introducing lots of canter work was the only thing that kept mine slim though
 
I used to do interval training with my Arab, gallop down the field and walk back. Repeat a lot of times! That got her very fit and she loved it.

I also wonder how much carrying a rider helps. Say 75kg including clothes and tack, that's quite a load. They don't get that lunging.

I have no idea, I wish more research was done on horses.
 
We have a hill on one of the tracks at our yard. It's not very long, but by crikey is it steep. I walk my horse up and down it a few times ,and he's ridden up and down once a week too. If you have anything similar that can really help.
 
My cob was the same, also wioth the asthma. The only thing that turned things around for us is a muzzle - the flexible filly now and previously greenguard. It does not exacerbate his asthma or cause any breathing issues.
My cob was fat even when we were eventing and hunting. It was like he could consume whatever calories he used + another 10% just in case. I thought he might have thyroid disorder, but no, turns out he was just greedy and eating all the grass. A few months of muzzle and he was so much lighter on his feet and after that is became much easier. Once they look the right condition and shape you look back and can't believe how big they were before. He went down a saddle width, had to buy a new grith .. - again he was competing and hunting before, not sedentary! Cobs are amazing eat machines!
 
You need to reduce the hay and increase the top chop zero .
My horses are always fatter than I would want .
You could only feed the chopped straw at night
Horses produce less stomach acid in the middle of the night .
So I would be planning to give a much smaller net and more top chop.
Replacing forage with straw chop works my horses now get haylege much in the way we used to feed hard food .
A small net is two or three kilos soaked .
I would also try a muzzle and see if it affects his asthma .If does not use one if you can get his weight down he won’t need it all the time in the future .
You do need to keep horses moving but if they are fat you go into have to reduce food to get the weight down .
It’s extremely hard ii live in a constant battle to keep mine sort of where want them .
 
Of course people burn more calories if they exercise more .
However you have to exercise a lot to burn off your fat .
Reduction of food intake works, it is just that you have reduce it to difficult to sustain levels.

That’s not to say exercise is not really important to keeping well humans are not different to horses in this respect we are designed to move .
 
Thank you all for the really helpful /supportive comments. I braced myself when I wrote it for a true H n H grilling but everyone has been so lovely.

We are not in denial he’s been on a diet since I got him. He’s lost loads of neck weight but that tummy takes ages. Last winter I really worked hard and he only lost 20kg.

I’m going to reduce hay to 7kg then 6kg continue to soak and rinse, will look out for organic oat straw. I’ll continue to clip and minimally rug and ignore the tantrums.

We are not competitive riders but an ordinary week would be 2 hacks (1-2 hours) and 2/3 school days, usually 1 lunge with plenty of canter, one polework and one flatwork/dressage practice. I trot up all the hills but we have very limited off road canter opportunities. Going to give 1 day off a week and will ride every night.
 
motherof2beasts! said:
Also he never actually touched the TCZ only the first night.
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In that case I would say he had too much hay. Ours are at home so I could give my mare a small amount of hay/lage when she came in at dusk, 7.00pm and 11pm which definitely helped but she certainly had more chaff than hay/lage. I found haylage better because the water content helped to fill her.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
In that case I would say he had too much hay. Ours are at home so I could give my mare a small amount of hay/lage when she came in at dusk, 7.00pm and 11pm which definitely helped but she certainly had more chaff than hay/lage. I found haylage better because the water content helped to fill her.
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What chaff would you recommend ?!
 
motherof2beasts! said:
Thank you all for the really helpful /supportive comments. I braced myself when I wrote it for a true H n H grilling but everyone has been so lovely.

We are not in denial he’s been on a diet since I got him. He’s lost loads of neck weight but that tummy takes ages. Last winter I really worked hard and he only lost 20kg.

I’m going to reduce hay to 7kg then 6kg continue to soak and rinse, will look out for organic oat straw. I’ll continue to clip and minimally rug and ignore the tantrums.

We are not competitive riders but an ordinary week would be 2 hacks (1-2 hours) and 2/3 school days, usually 1 lunge with plenty of canter, one polework and one flatwork/dressage practice. I trot up all the hills but we have very limited off road canter opportunities. Going to give 1 day off a week and will ride every night.
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Sounds like a great plan 🥰

Another thing you could do is weigh-tape weekly - not to find out exactly what he weighs as they are rarely accurate, but to monitor changes week by week.

It is so difficult with the good doers. The chunkier of mine came to me 18 months ago weigh-taping at 320kg, which I got down to 270kg over the next 6-7 months. She's still at 270kg 🤦‍♂️. Ideally I'd like her at 250-260kg, but it just won't go. I need to take some of my own advice and get her exercising more!

My other one is same height and breed (even same grandsire!) but a very different build and consistently weigh-tapes around 230kg. However she's the one that had lami last year so I constantly have to monitor her and manage sugar intake to avoid another flare-up, without letting her weight drop off. It's a balancing act for sure 😫
 
AdorableAlice said:
I feed oat straw 40% and meadow hay 60% add lib quantities very well mixed together, to my maxi cob, all goes into a haycube for half hour soak then netted in multiple nets. She has lost a lot of weight and does a fair bit of hacking.

The colic risk can be dealt with by getting more fluid into the horse when it is eating straw as part of the diet. I make a warm squash of 10/15 litres and offer it 4 times a day. She pees for England but her gut keeps moving and pushing the straw through.

Alongside a top quality senior balancer, natural Vit E and only 2 hours grazing per day which is split into 2 sessions, I have a fit, happy and forward going horse.

I would be very careful about leaving deep barrelled horses, especially mares, without long fibre to munch on for too many hours. I did restrict mine and very nearly paid for it with her life. She displaced 4 times because she was too empty for too long.
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This is how I've managed proper fatties previously.

My friend always feeds straw adlib and then rations hay in trickle nets.
 
AdorableAlice said:
I would be very careful about leaving deep barrelled horses, especially mares, without long fibre to munch on for too many hours. I did restrict mine and very nearly paid for it with her life. She displaced 4 times because she was too empty for too long.
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AA, I’m very pleased to hear that you’ve found a way to manage your lovely mare after her history of colicking.

When you say about not leaving mares especially without long fibre, is that more of a mare thing, then? My homebred would colic if not getting enough forage, she needed much more bulk to keep her gut moving than the other two mares she lived with, even though her weight was about right.

She lived out so was never entirely without something to nibble at, but if the grazing got too sparse she would colic.
 
I'd agree with others, 8kg is a lot over night. My friends 16hh TB mare gets 8kg over night and she is lean.

My 15.3 mare is currently on box rest, also a extremely good doer and gets 8kg in a 24 hour period. She is about 490kg but should be 470kg. Soaked. In small holed haynets, one given every few hours throughout the day. I've been giving her a bucket of oat straw so she always has something left.

I find this website useful to get a guide on how much - https://tricklenet.com/forage-calcu...Vwo194AGBvFmazuZHu2Jzk_vjEUSx1ZByCjBS_elBNMed
 
I feel your pain. Wiggy is on box rest. His stable's in a barn so he can't see out - not usually an issue as normally the horses only come in overnight during the winter so if one's in they're all in. Hay is all he has to occupy his time so I feel terrible limiting it. He was piling weight on but then we sorted him out with a pen in the field which he goes out into during the day if the weather allows (he was in all week last week and has been out all week this week). I was giving him hay in there too, again in the hope it would stop him getting bored in a tiny pen in the field but I've stopped that now and the weight is coming off him visibly. Even at this time of year there's a decent amount of energy in the grass. Could you limit his grazing in the daytime rather than overnight? At least with even limited grass he can nibble something to avoid ulcers. Obviously, he wouldn't need a pen but fencing off a smaller area in the field might help?

Having said that, I read an interesting article the other day that said if you need to restrict a horse's intake, it's better to do it at night as it's less likely to cause ulcers then than restricting intake during the day. Leaving a horse with no hay for a few hours overnight shouldn't be too much of an issue. Could you team up with anyone else at the yard so one of you brings them in and gives them a small net and the other goes up a bit later to give them their night nets?
 
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