four ring gag - action

MontyandZoom

MontyandZoom

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There is a novice girl at my field who has an arabxwelsh mare that is quite green. I have ridden the horse and she seems very unhappy in the mouth with a very high head carriage. She rides at the moment with the bottom hole of a 4-ring gag and martingale.

I suggested she change the bit since I thought that gags lifted the head higher. She went to a tack shop and the lady said that the gag worked on poll pressure so brought the head down and so was a good bit to use? :confused:

I am probably completely wrong - that's usually the case ;) but I thought four rings were similar to elevator bits in action.......and surely the name gives it away and it brings the head up?? Could someone please clarify.
 
I presume you mean a dutch gag? You should ALWAYS have 2 reins and a curb strap when using a dutch gag. This is probably why the poor ponio is disagreeing so much!
 
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MontyandZoom said:
There is a novice girl at my field who has an arabxwelsh mare that is quite green. I have ridden the horse and she seems very unhappy in the mouth with a very high head carriage. She rides at the moment with the bottom hole of a 4-ring gag and martingale.

I suggested she change the bit since I thought that gags lifted the head higher. She went to a tack shop and the lady said that the gag worked on poll pressure so brought the head down and so was a good bit to use? :confused:

I am probably completely wrong - that's usually the case ;) but I thought four rings were similar to elevator bits in action.......and surely the name gives it away and it brings the head up?? Could someone please clarify.
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Common misconception that a dutch gag will lower the head. Most horses will actually respond by raising their heads. Lots of horses also don't like the action.

If she is novicey I'd suggest she goes back to basics and goes for a french link snaffle or something. Arabs tend to have a naturally high head carriage anyway so unless she is riding properly on the bit it will most likely carry its head higher than most.

Lessons will be a far better use of her money than a collection of bits!
 
T_K said:
I presume you mean a dutch gag? You should ALWAYS have 2 reins and a curb strap when using a dutch gag. This is probably why the poor ponio is disagreeing so much!
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Disclaimer - I too think this is a TERRIBLE bitting arrangement, especially with novice hands......however, some people won't be told!!
 
Im quoting - these arnt my words lol - but are what i would say a gag is for. Is it a dutch gag?

"The gag bit works on the horse's lips and poll simultaneously. The pressure on the lips tends to make the horse raise its head, which is useful for a horse that tends to lean on the bit. Gag bits are used mainly for horses that are strong pullers or for horses that need retraining"

"The lower the rein is placed on the shank, the more severe the leverage. When rein pressure is applied, the bit rotates in the mouth and places pressure on the poll, as the upper shank moves forward, as well as on the lips.
Dutch gag: Similar to the elevator, The lower ring(s) provide the gag action. The lower the second rein is placed on the stack, the more "leverage" (raising of the mouthpiece up along the cheekpiece) is applied. Dutch gags are useful because they provide options for for the severity of the bit.the bridle cheek pieces are attached to the top rings to produce pressure.the lower the reins are fitted, the stronger the leverage action on the horses mouth"

SO.... if the horse isnt a strong puller, and she's actively trying to get its head down... shes using the wrong bit!

On the other hand, gags are a great tool in the right hands, i would use one on my showjumper in competition as he would get very very excited, and a high head carraigge wasnt an issue for me :o
 
The term 'elevator' when applied to dutch and american gags is a misnomer. They work on poll pressure, thus lowering the head. The chelthenam or running gag has the lifting effect which is why it is ofen used with a strong horse that is heavy on the forehand.

One of the biggest reasons horses do not tolerate a dutch gag well is because they are usually single jointed. This creates what can only be described as agony as the rein action with implement the poll pressure but at the same time the joint will hit the roof of the mouth. Couple this with the fact that people will close the horses mouth with flash or other and add a running martingale to strap the horse down even further. Most cases, the horse has no other option but to throw its head in the air and object.

Unfortunately these bits have been so widely misused and misunderstood that they have a terrible reputation, but used sympathetically as a straight bar or ergonomically designed french link they can be really effective.

A bit is only as strong as the hands holding the reins. I am not particularly bothered whether they are used with one rein, 2 reins, roundings or a curb strap, the most important think in my opinion is the mouth piece.
 
Foxglove said:
The term 'elevator' when applied to dutch and american gags is a misnomer. They work on poll pressure, thus lowering the head. The chelthenam or running gag has the lifting effect which is why it is ofen used with a strong horse that is heavy on the forehand.
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Boo! Now I'm even more confused......Wikipedia says that they raise the head, but now I'm :confused:

She should of course have lessons and reduce the bitting but I have very little say in the matter.
 
KatB explained really well how dutch gags work a while ago. There is also that really good website the name of which I can never remember that explains bits and nosebands well. You could refer her to that.

I'm sure it begins with s.......
 
One thing everyone is agreed on is the arrangement is not the most suitable for a novice! Why is she using this combination anyway? Is the pony strong?

If you are interested in bitting, one of the best reference books is The Complete Book of Bits and Bitting by Elwyn Hartley Edwards.
 
Foxglove said:
One thing everyone is agreed on is the arrangement is not the most suitable for a novice! Why is she using this combination anyway? Is the pony strong?

If you are interested in bitting, one of the best reference books is The Complete Book of Bits and Bitting by Elwyn Hartley Edwards.
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I quote "that's what she came in" :s I have ridden the pony a bit and she's not exactly strong.....but she is very green and so rushes off into canter etc. She is a bit of moody mare madam but just needs lots of schooling. There are actually very few people at my field who DON'T use gags of some description. Including the 3 four year olds :(
 
It is very difficult in these situations because no one likes to be seen as interfering, but it does sound like some 'educating' needs to go on.

Maybe suggest she puts her in a snaffle and does a few circles in the field. Once she realises that the horse is a bit happier and will surely be easier to ride, she may ditch the gag for good.

Bitting is definately an art. There is no bit I really object to seeing in a horses mouth (well maybe a twisted y mouth or similar!) but I wish people would not just follow fashions, it just makes for unhappy horses. I'll get off my soap box now...
 
I agree, I lent her a french link hanging cheek snaffle. She said it was a 'disaster' however, I may offer to ride the mare in it so I can see for myself how she goes. She leans on the bit apparantly so my friend has lent her a waterford snaffle to see how she goes.
 
M&Z I don't want to hijack your thread, so when those of you with dutch gag knowledge have finished on here, could you possibly have a look at my thread on bits please! :D

I've called it "Bit advice" .... I think :o
 
Foxglove said:
Bitting is definately an art. There is no bit I really object to seeing in a horses mouth (well maybe a twisted y mouth or similar!) but I wish people would not just follow fashions, it just makes for unhappy horses. I'll get off my soap box now...
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Twisted snaffles can actually be quite useful though. I used to think they were horrific instruments of torture from seeing pictures in books and then my instructor suggested using one on a horse I was riding at the time who was leaning on the bit. She showed it to me and it wasn't sharp at all, just contoured with a spiral that stops the horse fixing on it. We used it on the horse and he was so much better than in the myler he had before.

I've since used it on two other horses both responded well to it.

Only trouble is they are difficult to get hold of and impossible to find with a double joint.
 
Katt said:
KatB explained really well how dutch gags work a while ago. There is also that really good website the name of which I can never remember that explains bits and nosebands well. You could refer her to that.

I'm sure it begins with s.......
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Had to drag this post up to respond...Sustainable dressage! :D Very good site.

Here's the description of the dutch gag http://www.sustainabledressage.com/tack/bridle.php#pessoa

and a pic from the site to show how the gag actually does raise in the mouth. :)

pessoa_pop-eye2.gif
 
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