Foxhunting! Help!

[char3479]

LOL



This owl may well be paraded around on the back of a quad bike but did you see it physically attack and kill a fox? If the answer is yes, please tell me exactly what happened, I'm intrigued.

No, it was just there for the scenery - it told me it like hooning round the countryside on the back of a bike in a box, and it looked forward to hunt season just so it could get out and about.
(Just to confirm, this is sarcasm. I feel I need to clarify as you are so clearly unable to read between the lines).
hackneylass2, I know admitting you are wrong would mean handing yourself in as living in Cloud Cuckoo land, but it might be quite nice there...

 

[chillipup]

I'm interested in the idea that no-one hunts foxes in this country. It is illegal to hunt foxes with dogs. But, let's face it, it still happens, but the kill isn't made by the dogs in order to get round the law. The kill is made by an eagle owl, or a gun. And cubbing still happens.
To the people who say fox hunting doesn't happen in this country: do you really believe this?
I'm genuinely trying to get my head around the fact that so many people I know who appear perfectly normal, and are huge animal lovers, manage to thoroughly enjoy hunting foxes.

No, it was just there for the scenery - it told me it like hooning round the countryside on the back of a bike in a box, and it looked forward to hunt season just so it could get out and about.
(Just to confirm, this is sarcasm. I feel I need to clarify as you are so clearly unable to read between the lines).
hackneylass2, I know admitting you are wrong would mean handing yourself in as living in Cloud Cuckoo land, but it might be quite nice there...

Ahhh, now I get it char3479, thanks for clarifying both your above posts, it was your attempt at sarcasm.

So reading between your lines a-fresh, just so I'm clear, you don't believe the BOP is actually used to kill the fox, it's there for display purposes only and hunting with dogs still continues? - No argument from me then. Perhaps for the benefit of others like me, who have difficulty reading between your lines, how about just saying it as you think? just a suggestion.

 

[AdorableAlice]

A sensible answer to the OP's question is.

Prepare your horse correctly to enable it to hunt safely. Take an unfit horse and you will break it. Choose the type of horse needed for the type of country you are intending to cross. For instance a big moving warmblood will not suit moor or woodland hunting, likewise a native or stuffy cob will struggle to cross big jumping and galloping areas like Leicestershire.

Speak to the secretary and they will be more than happy to help you enjoy your day.

 

[char3479]

Ahhh, now I get it char3479, thanks for clarifying both your above posts, it was your attempt at sarcasm.

So reading between your lines a-fresh, just so I'm clear, you don't believe the BOP is actually used to kill the fox, it's there for display purposes only and hunting with dogs still continues? - No argument from me then. Perhaps for the benefit of others like me, who have difficulty reading between your lines, how about just saying it as you think? just a suggestion.

Nope. Wrong again. Congratulations on completely misinterpreting my original comment. Just to clarify: I know a hunt who uses an eagle owl to kill foxes. I do hope that's simple enough for you and your clearly limited comprehension skills.
Apologies to the OP, I had no intention of distracting from the original post, but unfortunately some people just like to argue for the sake of it. Mine was a genuine question originally. It has descended into a silly playground conversation through the utter stupidity of the comments regarding how genuine I was with my claim. I didn't come on here to argue with silly people. I was hoping to further my understanding of fox hunting. I should have known better than to expect a reasoned response.

 

[chillipup]

I'm interested in the idea that no-one hunts foxes in this country. It is illegal to hunt foxes with dogs. But, let's face it, it still happens, but the kill isn't made by the dogs in order to get round the law. The kill is made by an eagle owl, or a gun. And cubbing still happens.
To the people who say fox hunting doesn't happen in this country: do you really believe this?
I'm genuinely trying to get my head around the fact that so many people I know who appear perfectly normal, and are huge animal lovers, manage to thoroughly enjoy hunting foxes.

Nope. Wrong again. Congratulations on completely misinterpreting my original comment. Just to clarify: I know a hunt who uses an eagle owl to kill foxes. I do hope that's simple enough for you and your clearly limited comprehension skills.
Apologies to the OP, I had no intention of distracting from the original post, but unfortunately some people just like to argue for the sake of it. Mine was a genuine question originally. It has descended into a silly playground conversation through the utter stupidity of the comments regarding how genuine I was with my claim. I didn't come on here to argue with silly people. I was hoping to further my understanding of fox hunting. I should have known better than to expect a reasoned response.

Just rude. I asked a legitimate question.

 

[chillipup]

Jade and Dolly, I spent a couple of hours hunting, but only from the comfort of my sofa. (far too decrepit to have a go myself, sadly) Check out Youtube and especially vids from Pearson Eventing and Ledbury Headcam, really good footage, I thoroughly enjoyed it. It may give you some idea but obviously nothing like the real thing.

 

[hackneylass2]

Chillipup, I agree that Char was rude too.

Char, if my or Chillipup's comments were 'utterly stupid' why don't you clarify things and enlighten us with your knowledge? Who was arguing anyway?

It is my PERSONAL SUPPOSITION that it would be illogical to use an expensive trained BOP such as a Golden Eagle or and Eagle Owl to KILL foxes, and I doubted that such a bird could kill a fox (in a foxhunting scenario) that's all. Go on, stun us with your expertise! tell us all about it - I am sure that a good few folks on here would love to know the definitive answer.

 

[popsdosh]

Chillipup, I agree that Char was rude too.

Char, if my or Chillipup's comments were 'utterly stupid' why don't you clarify things and enlighten us with your knowledge? Who was arguing anyway?

It is my PERSONAL SUPPOSITION that it would be illogical to use an expensive trained BOP such as a Golden Eagle or and Eagle Owl to KILL foxes, and I doubted that such a bird could kill a fox (in a foxhunting scenario) that's all. Go on, stun us with your expertise! tell us all about it - I am sure that a good few folks on here would love to know the definitive answer.

The Fitzwilliam has a golden eagle that indeed does kill foxes ,in fact the most spectacular was taking a fox in mid flight jumping a fence it is out every hunting day apart from when its feathers are moulting. You mess with it at your peril ! I think you are totally unaware of the strength and power of them. They have been used for years in Kazakhstan and Mongolia to control foxes.
Why is it illogical? you can use a full pack of hounds to flush the fox and then make sure they back off before the Eagle is flown mainly for the hounds protection.

 

[char3479]

Just rude. I asked a legitimate question.

No, you were rude. Your question had been answered but you deliberately tried to antagonise. I've been a member of this forum for a while, but I've made the decision that people like you are not worth the time it takes to respond. I cannot bear the ignorance and arrogance displayed towards anyone who dares to have an opinion (or factual comments in my case); it seems that polite discussion cannot be had when there are people like you who chose to bitch. I appreciate I was sarcastic, but your comment deserved nothing more. I made a clear statement initially. It didn't fit with you or Hackneylass' views so you chose to belittle my initial comment and now, when I defend myself with comments which equal yours in their sarcasm, I'm the one being rude. You didn't have the manners to respect my initial post, and you questioned my perfectly legitimate statement. So before I really do get rude (and you two are clearly not in a position to judge manners) I will be leaving the forum. Try to open your eyes to others' experiences rather than just antagonising people with whom you disagree.

 

[popsdosh]

No, you were rude. Your question had been answered but you deliberately tried to antagonise. I've been a member of this forum for a while, but I've made the decision that people like you are not worth the time it takes to respond. I cannot bear the ignorance and arrogance displayed towards anyone who dares to have an opinion (or factual comments in my case); it seems that polite discussion cannot be had when there are people like you who chose to bitch. I appreciate I was sarcastic, but your comment deserved nothing more. I made a clear statement initially. It didn't fit with you or Hackneylass' views so you chose to belittle my initial comment and now, when I defend myself with comments which equal yours in their sarcasm, I'm the one being rude. You didn't have the manners to respect my initial post, and you questioned my perfectly legitimate statement. So before I really do get rude (and you two are clearly not in a position to judge manners) I will be leaving the forum. Try to open your eyes to others' experiences rather than just antagonising people with whom you disagree.

Some dont wish to see past their own preconceived ideals.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Some dont wish to see past their own preconceived ideals.

Well, I for one was happy to be educated on how a bird of prey fits in with post ban hunting. All my hunting was done pre ban. I know that one local pack was intending to use a bird of prey (can't remember which species). A subscriber to a neighbouring pack dismissed it as the ***** pack's 'budgie' .

I thought that char3479's initial repsonses were tongue in cheek too, things can come across differently in writing cf face to face speech.

 

[chillipup]

My previous question to the other poster, was to clarify whether they had actually seen the Eagle Owl used by the hunt, kill a fox. I'm aware a Golden Eagle, can and most certainly will be able to take out a fox, I've no doubt about that having also seen it myself, and on occasions, young/small deer (albeit not seen it in this country) A Golden Eagle is often taken out on one of the local estates near me to hunt rabbits.

I was, honestly and genuinely, querying the use of an Eagle Owl having the same ability. Being a much lighter bird than a Golden Eagle, and a nocturnal predatory species, as opposed to the diurnal Golden Eagle. I wasn't aware of it's ability to take anything much bigger than an adult hare/rabbit. And would be truly surprised if it could take an adult fox and not be subject to serious harm itself in the process.

I have, in the past, been fortunate to be, up close and personal to many, both wild and captive bred, birds of prey and close to fledgling Eagle Owls. Although they were rather cute and fluffy at that stage (resembling something from the Muppet show) I would never have imagined them being quite able, even when fully grown, to kill an adult fox.

My knowledge of birds of prey is pretty limited. I obviously did not interpret the other poster's comments in the way they were meant, which is why I asked again for clarification. I was not seeking an argument at all, I just wanted to know if they'd seen this owl kill a fox. If it's used just to 'pretend' that it will and can kill, fair enough - I've no problem with that, what so ever. If it is able to actually kill the fox, I'm keen to know and interested in hearing the details.

Interpreting someones comments can work both ways.

Apologies OP. Didn't set out to cause such a fuss.

 

[popsdosh]

To be fair an eagle owl is not at all likely to kill a fox they were used primarily to get around the ban.
There was nothing in the act that said the bird of prey had to be capable! A golden eagle is a totally different kettle of fish and needs somebody handling it who knows what their doing! They are not an ornament that looks pretty . There was some footage on you tube of the time the eagle caught the fox over the post and rail fence ,however it was deemed inappropriate and removed by you tube .

 

[chillipup]

To be fair an eagle owl is not at all likely to kill a fox they were used primarily to get around the ban.
There was nothing in the act that said the bird of prey had to be capable! A golden eagle is a totally different kettle of fish and needs somebody handling it who knows what their doing! They are not an ornament that looks pretty . There was some footage on you tube of the time the eagle caught the fox over the post and rail fence ,however it was deemed inappropriate and removed by you tube .

Thank you popsdosh for taking the trouble, and yes, a Golden Eagle, must be more than capable. I just couldn't imagine how or why an Eagle Owl would be used, at least I finally know now....heaves big sigh of relief... So I shall have to work on my posting skills and learn how to interpret better! plus try not to be so naive in future

I'm surprised the Youtube vid of Golden Eagle v fox was taken down though, given that others are able to put the most horrendous, inappropriate clips up, (that no one in their right mind would ever wish to see) that are left on. Having learnt my lesson on that site, I don't click on anything that I'm not totally sure of now.

Thanks again, much appreciated.

 

[Alec Swan]

Eagles are regularly used on the Steppes for killing foxes, but the lunacy of the Act is that being killed by hounds would be far more humane than by any bird of prey. Those who I've accompanied whilst flying birds of prey at game, have generally had the bird starting to eat its quarry whilst it's still alive. I've seen Goshawks killing both hares and rabbits, and generally it's the human who administers the coup de gras, and only when they've arrived on the scene which can be after some while.

Left to their own devices, birds of prey take quite some while to kill what they've caught. Conversely, when the first hound takes hold of the fox then with the following hounds being immediately behind then its end comes in seconds.

However well intentioned the Hunting Act may (possibly) have been, our vulpine population have been dealt a grave disservice. I'm also left wondering how it can be right that man is prevented from hunting foxes with dogs but it's ok to use birds of prey. Perhaps falconry is seen as a sport of the proletariat, and so it's acceptable!

Alec.

 

[Irish gal]

This thread has evolved now into a bird of prey thing but getting back to the OP's first question - please don't worry your head for a second about a horse being cut with thorns or what awful accident could happen. The simple truth is that there is nothing that a horse likes better than going hunting. It's like horse Nirvana.

Think about it. Horses are herd animals, now they get to cross country in a herd, with lots of excitement, all sorts of fences. It's pure addiction for a horse and once a convert - that's it.

My last great horse was a TB I bought to go hunting. He was destined for racing and a lot of people thought I was mad to buy an unbroken TB for hunting. Well he gave me the best runs and thrills of my life. Quiet by nature, he took to hunting like a duck to water. On his first outings his ears nearly crossed over in excitement and joy. He did put in a bit of rearing but all newbies will do that - he just couldn't wait to get on with the job!

There was nothing he would not jump and he was a pure pleasure for me as a rider - it was the closest I'll ever get to riding a race. There is nothing like hunting a good TB. Any way, later on this poor lad sustained a stress fracture to a back leg while in training for point to pointing.

His only hope was that the bones might knit while standing basically still in the stable - standard treatment. My big worry was that the hunt would pass anywhere nearby and he would hear that hunting horn and dance in the stable thus completely messing up the leg.

That's how much he loved it. I often think we are getting very far removed from what the horse really enjoys: so many are in livery with very little turnout ect. The closer we can get to the natural state of horses the more they like it. And hunting is a very natural state for them. I can tell you now, your horse would rather be torn by thorns then not allowed to go hunting. So if you want to help/broaden your horse's experience there's nothing better that you can do for him than take him hunting.

 

[hackneylass2]

Ah, nice to see that my opinion was not too far from the truth Popsdosh. I spoke with a member of the local shoot who's brother is a keen falconer and the opinion was that Eagle Owls are too unpredictable (actually, he said they were tw*ts) and whilst a Golden Eagle was capable of killing a fox it was not best practice to expose the bird to such danger. In his opinion the birds were primarily used as figureheads to get around the ban.

He also said that a BOP in a box on a quadbike offroad would likely suffer feather damage or worse and he would never condone doing this with any BOP. He also said that you would need a very experienced handler to cope with a Golden Eagle or Eagle Owl.

So, I have my answer, from a no-nonsense guy who has hunted for decades. His last words to me were that the general public will believe anything if they are not directly involved. Ah, the majority are just as hooded as the birds of prey then

As for falconry being percieved as a sport for the proletariat, Alec, come on! Crap like that only reinforces the toffs v townies hunting argument. I know a lot of proles (if you define proles as those who have to work for a wage) who hunt, indeed, they vastly outnumber those who do not have to work to make a living. As to Falconers, I don't know of any, but I would guess that they come from most walks of life too. The guy I spoke to is a farmer, his falconer brother has a car dealership.

 

[popsdosh]

Ah, nice to see that my opinion was not too far from the truth Popsdosh. I spoke with a member of the local shoot who's brother is a keen falconer and the opinion was that Eagle Owls are too unpredictable (actually, he said they were tw*ts) and whilst a Golden Eagle was capable of killing a fox it was not best practice to expose the bird to such danger. In his opinion the birds were primarily used as figureheads to get around the ban.

He also said that a BOP in a box on a quadbike offroad would likely suffer feather damage or worse and he would never condone doing this with any BOP. He also said that you would need a very experienced handler to cope with a Golden Eagle or Eagle Owl.

So, I have my answer, from a no-nonsense guy who has hunted for decades. His last words to me were that the general public will believe anything if they are not directly involved. Ah, the majority are just as hooded as the birds of prey then

As for falconry being percieved as a sport for the proletariat, Alec, come on! Crap like that only reinforces the toffs v townies hunting argument. I know a lot of proles (if you define proles as those who have to work for a wage) who hunt, indeed, they vastly outnumber those who do not have to work to make a living. As to Falconers, I don't know of any, but I would guess that they come from most walks of life too. The guy I spoke to is a farmer, his falconer brother has a car dealership.

Perhaps your keen falconer friend needs enlightening and should spend a day with the Fitz . They employ a full time Falconer who indeed carries the eagle around in a box on a quad and its fine! Whats more they risk it and it kills foxes!!!, it had one close escape when younger but funnily enough that sharpened it up a little.

 

[Alec Swan]

…….. . As to Falconers, I don't know of any, but I would guess that they come from most walks of life too. The guy I spoke to is a farmer, his falconer brother has a car dealership.

I suspect that you may well have missed my point!

Alec.

 

[popsdosh]

I suspect that you may well have missed my point!

Alec.

Im shocked!

 

[Birker2020]

I have heard loads of people talk about how fun Foxhunting is and i really wanted to give it a go with my horse!

However I've been told by my mums close friend not to go as they don't care about the horses and it's the most dangerous thing , as horses are always breaking legs and getting damaged! And the horse get there hooves stuck down rabbit holes and torn apart by thorns, I understand it's very dangerous and it's more dangerous than eventing!

But how dangerous is it truthly for the horse and rider like do horses break damage legs often?!

Any advice and views will be really appreciated!

I have never been hunting, but on your insurance policy you may have to pay a more expensive premium if you go hunting. That speaks for itself. Its my understanding that when an inexperienced horse gets the adrenalin flowing through him with the other horses galloping and jumping next to him, there is every chance that he might tackle something he is not confident with, and could have an accident as a result. No matter what you do with horses, from schooling at home, to hacking on the roads, there is always an element of risk. But hunting is another kettle of fish altogether.

This is my understanding of the situation and I might be totally wrong, like I say I have never hunted before. Personally, I would not risk my horse hunting, anymore than I would risk him going round a team chase, or entering anything XC over 90cm/1m in height for the fear he would hurt himself.

 

[Alec Swan]

……..

However I've been told by my mums close friend not to go as they don't care about the horses and it's the most dangerous thing , as horses are always breaking legs and getting damaged! And the horse get there hooves stuck down rabbit holes and torn apart by thorns, I understand it's very dangerous and it's more dangerous than eventing!

But how dangerous is it truthly for the horse and rider like do horses break damage legs often?!

……..

To return to the opening post; Of course there are accidents in the Hunting field, just as there are road traffic accidents involving cars, but proportionally I would imagine that there are far more 'field accidents' with horses turned out, than there are whilst Hunting. Most accidents are through rider error when horses are over-faced with a jump, and the cautious rider is safer out Hunting than hacking on a public road. In essence, your mum's best friend is talking alarmist twaddle!

I'm sorry for the delay in responding, but if you were to ask for help and guidance from someone present who is experienced, I'm sure that you will be safe. I hope that you enjoy your day, should you go. If you pluck up the courage, will you come back and give us a report? It's almost compulsory!

Alec.