France bans the veil

Alec Swan said:
I agree. I'm all for tolerance, but when legislation is formed, which gives a clear preference to foreign nationals, with very little thought to the well being of our own, then it can't be right.

I think that Australia has the right idea. Foreign nationals are welcome there, providing that they bear in mind, that they live by the conditions which are in place to suit the resident population, their own nationals.

I still can't get my head around the fact, that when we are in predominantly muslim countries, then those who offend their beliefs and principles, are booted out. Here, we seem to change any of our laws and established ethics, to suit just about anyone. :confused:

Alec.
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Well said Alec
 
1stclassalan said:
I'm willing to bet at good odds that there will be a good number of white french girls wafting up various aisles wearing a veil all in the name of tradition.

It wasn't so long ago in Britain that all men and women wore a hat - if fact the women rarely took them off! Go back a bit further and some working class women covered their heads in a shawl which doesn't look that much different to a burka to me - no one mentioned ( shock, horror, ) Womens Rights or the loss of them.
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I dont think they did it to show they were subserviant to there husbands or men !!!!
 
until i read the books the kite flyer and a thousand splendid suns, i did'nt really understand the full implications of being a woman, a moslem, for regligion and men to enforce the covering of the hair and face every time they go outside has no place in the 21st century, the inference is that removing physical temptation will prevent women straying or being desireable, but its more like a form of dominance by humiliation in reality, and that's why sarkozy does'nt want it, i think he is right to think of the men and women in france having the same freedoms and opportunities to express themselves as people in their own right and not as lesser mortals within a marriage.

our boys are fighting in afganistan for exactly these freedoms, in a place where little girls would not be allowed even to go to school if it was left to brutal extremists like the taliban.

so while we are free to make light of this subject i think it has a deeper meaning than would at first appear and is not just another silly political thing
 
Its not just a Muslim thing either. My mum used to get a magazine for me, publish by Focus on the Family in the US. Good grief the amount of articles they devoted to "dressing modestly" on how the glimpse of a bra strap (make sure your top is wider than your bra strap..) or cleavage (sew buttons on your clothes or wear another layer) or upper thigh (always try things on, or measure how long it will be...even leggings/tights aren't good enough coverage...) was absolutely ridiculous. Make up tips on covering spots etc but without looking too tempting...

It was alright in theory, but very much centred on not providing temptation for those poor males as they will think SINFUL THOUGHTS and maybe... ACT ON IT!

Also, keep kissing and hand holding to a minimum before marriage, as SINFUL THOUGHTS will lead the male astray and may lead to SINFUL ACTIONS! :rolleyes:

It was awful. Ahem, and that's my rant over.
 
SSM said:
In an Islamic country you would be arrested for wearing a bikini yet not here? When in Rome.....
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So true. You have to respect the country you are in. When I went on holiday in Egypt I wore long sleeves and full length, loose trousers because its just not right to show too much flesh in those countries (you also get a lot of unwanted attention...).
 
The new French law isn't banning the head scarf or hijab or veils that only cover the hair. It's banning full face veils, also known as burqas or niqabs.


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/17/weekinreview/17BURQA.html?src=twrhp

Here's a quote from the New York Times article:

Even though many here mistakenly call it a burqa, the garment worn by women here is a niqab, an improvised cover in black with no religious or traditional significance beyond what a wearer or observer gives it. Some of these women may be rebels, demanding control over their bodies and recognition within a Western culture whose social values they reject. Some may have been forced into covering their faces by domineering men; others may believe they are better Muslims because they hide their faces in public. Some are French converts from Christianity.
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The Koran doesn't require women to cover their faces, only to dress modestly.

Whether people think this law infringes on civil liberities in a whole other story . . .
 
The Koran may not stipulate the niqab et al but when do religions ever stick..um... religiously?... to their holy book?

The Bible says women are unclean for X amount of days after their period and DO NOT TOUCH THEM OR YE SHALL BURN! And heaven forbid you get mildew on your cloth... ;)
 
I'm in favour of the new law in France on face covering in public places. I find women wearing the burqa and niquab offensive to me, as a woman.

It basically means a woman who chooses to be covered denies herself a social life which does not take place within the home, and therefore prevents her from mixing with other than her close family and friends.

The full face burqa was until very recently only worn by women of a very small sect of Islam. I am cynical that it is now being worn now for reasons other than the opposite for which it is claimed. Both for political reasons and to draw attention to the wearer. Why adopt it in the west, when the men here are not generally prone to approaching uncovered women in the streets (OK, it happens, but its not so much a problem that most women feel any need to cover all bare skin)? Who do they think is actually going to be looking at them, and why?
 
I think that there is a lot of confusion over culture and religion here. As many have previously stated, the full face veil is NOT required. It is something which some cultures have worn - places which were not safe (for men or women). The Quoran guides women to dress modestly and cover their hair. This shouldn't really be a Muslim debate but rather a debate about how some cultures choose to interpret this. I wear a headscarf when I ride and nobody has ever mentioned a single thing. Incidentally, I was at a local riding school show and one of the Chinese livery owners came out wearing a face veil. This was to stop the sun making her skin dark because they don't like dark skin here!
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The Quoran guides women to dress modestly and cover their hair.
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My understanding was that the Quaran (spelling?) doesn't even stipulate that the hair be covered, just that one dresses modestly. But different cultures have radically different interpretations of what modest dressing entails . . .

In some cultures, veiling predates Islam.
 
IMO the veil ban will contribute towards muslim women feeling more oppressed and give the Muslim community more fuel for their fires and cause even more of a divide between cultures. I certainly do not think the law was passed for any benefit to Muslim women, it was just something that Sarkozy knew would be popular amongst the french natives who are peeved with the lack of immigration control. (i liken it to the Hunting ban)

I see no way in which this law can be upheld, are the policeman patrolling the streets going to make these women take off their veils, and if they refuse then will they be arrested and the veil removed forcibly.

No the Koran does not state that women should wear the full face veil but it is the womans choice (we hope) that she does and are we not infringing on her rights to tell her she is not allowed.

The problem in any multi cultural society is not that Muslim women wear face veils, it is that there is a lack of integration and education on all sides.

I think maybe a better law would have been to make it obligatory, that when you enter a public building (shops, schools, banks, hospitals etc) that the face must be uncovered. This would include scarves, motorcycle helmets, balaclavas etc. This way no one minority group are being singled out and no minority can stand up and claim to be being oppressed.
 
brigantia said:
My understanding was that the Quaran (spelling?) doesn't even stipulate that the hair be covered, just that one dresses modestly. But different cultures have radically different interpretations of what modest dressing entails . . .

In some cultures, veiling predates Islam.
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The spelling is phonetic as this is a translation so there are many variations on it. It's true that in some cultures veiling predates Islam - hence my previous post. The Quoran does say women should guard their modesty and throw a veil over their heads. I don't speak Arabic so I apologise if I have offended anyone in my attempts to interpret here.
 
I heard an iman interviewed on Radio 4 who said Quaran didn't require the veil, only modest dress for both men and women. Islamic feminists will say the veil is not necessary from the point of view of religious observance. Perhaps different people interpret that verse in the Quaran differently?

Allover, has very good points. This is a serious conundrum and many people will argue that it interferes with civil liberties. I don't know if the UK would ever accept such a law because it's alien to this culture's ideals of personal choice and liberty.

But it's interesting that France's outlook on the separation of religion and state is so different from the way many other Western countries view it.

In the USA, the separation between religion and state means that it's the state's duty to uphold everyone's religious liberties even if that means fundamentalist Christians homeschool their kids to prevent them from being "corrupted" by secular education. In other cases, a person working at the chemists might refuse to sell a woman birth control pills because of their religious convictions.

In France, the separation of church and state is interpretted just the opposite--it's the secular state's *duty* to protect its citizens from the extremes of religious fundamentalism which interfere with secular enlightenment values. Insistence on face veils is interpretted as Sharia law interfering with the individual's rights of gender equality. It might be a woman's free choice to where a niqab--or her husband or father might be making her wear it. So I don't think this is just anti-immigration backlash on France's part. It's a very complicated issue.
 
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