Freelancer with no insurance

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chaps89

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Agreed to move to a new yard, lady on the yard offers services and does so for many people on the yard.
Just by chance I asked if she's insured and she said no, only BHS Gold, but obviously that doesn't apply when she's being paid to ride/handle the horse.
Would this be an issue for you?
(Horse has insurance in place for third party and personal accident, but personal accident at least again doesn't apply for people being paid to ride/handle her, not sure about 3rd party, which is more my concern tbh)
 
If I was on a yard and paying for jobs such as handling or riding, then yes, I'd want the person handling my horse to be insured for at least 3rd party.
If one of my monsters got loose because it was tied up incorrectly or the groom let go, then caused damage to something, the paid groom's insurance would come into effect.

Hmm, good luck in making decision chaps!
 
Tricky where is the line regarding others handling your horse and injury and liabililty?

e.g. if I bring another liveries horse in on Monday, and she brings mine in on Tuesday.
e.g. 2 I pay another livery a fiver cash in hand to bring my horse in Wednesday.

If the person doing the bringing in isn’t declaring the income and paying tax on it, they are unlikely to sue you for personal injury, as they would have to admit committing tax fraud.

They’d also need to prove that you were negligent e.g. didn’t tell them horse kicked and trampled people, and normal horse handling incidents would be par for course and not negligence.

My third party covers anyone seriously injured by my horse, who is handling horse in a non-commercial basis. But I think the excess is £500

I’d not touch a freelancer not based on the yard without insurance.
I am unsure about paying another livery cash for favours.
 
If money was changing hands, I would definitely expect insurance to be in place. It reminds me of an interesting situation with a fellow livery, a few years back. They had an instructor riding their horse, jumping. She faced the horse at a fence and brought it in too fast. Horse fell on landing, skinning both knees and its face. It was battered and bruised, needing quite a bit of time off and missing some competitions. As I understand it, instructor’s insurance accepted liability and settled vets and other associated costs. First time I had ever heard of an instructor actually injuring a horse, although I’m sure it does happen.
Made for some slightly awkward social events for a time after and I think she lost some clients too.
 
The Fuzzy Furry said:
If I was on a yard and paying for jobs such as handling or riding, then yes, I'd want the person handling my horse to be insured for at least 3rd party.
If one of my monsters got loose because it was tied up incorrectly or the groom let go, then caused damage to something, the paid groom's insurance would come into effect.

Hmm, good luck in making decision chaps!
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Thanks. I feel like the world's most neurotic person ever.
Fatty hasn't ever got away or done anything to make me believe there would be a problem, but at the end of the day she's still a horse and things can go wrong. And working in insurance I know this is one thing they would look at and also just how wrong it can go when it does go wrong.
I don't exactly have a huge choice in places to go but she currently has mild laminitis so staying where we are isn't an option either.

Definitely money changes hands, I can't do stabled DIY without assistance unfortunately. So a formal/regular arrangement, therefore not a non commercial basis and covered by regular insurance.
She has said as it's just cash in hand she's never seen the need, though it's her primary source of income so it should certainly be declared but I'm not going to get involved in that side of things, rightly or wrongly.

I'm less worried about an injury to her (although I would be mortified if something did happen of course) But more the repercussions of horse damaging someone/something else whilst under her care (and also being potentially hurt herself)
Or would it not be my problem?
 
My 3rd party covers my horse being handled or ridden by anyone else for any damage he does. So your insurance would still cover you.
 
Kamikaze said:
My 3rd party covers my horse being handled or ridden by anyone else for any damage he does. So your insurance would still cover you.
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No, if you read the small print, your insurance will only cover your horse, if no money changes hands, there will be an exception clause somewhere in the small print. If money changes hands, the liability is expected to sit with the person taking money for handling / dealing with the horse, and they should have professional liability insurance. Same as yard staff are covered under yard owners employer liability insurance.
 
You will need to check whether your insurance covers your horse while being ridden/handled by a paid 3rd party. If it doesn't you will need to rectify that in some way. Personal accident cover is up to the freelancer to provide for herself.
 
flying_high said:
No, if you read the small print, your insurance will only cover your horse, if no money changes hands, there will be an exception clause somewhere in the small print.
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This. Some years ago I paid a local 6th former/then uni student to do the neds when we went away, assuming that my BHS Gold membership covered me insurance wise for third party liability. Nothing untoward happened, but I was mortified when I later discovered I’d been winging it. I phoned SEIB to see if I could add cover to my existing horse insurance, but they said that an occasional groom needs their own cover.
 
chaps89 said:
Thanks. I feel like the world's most neurotic person ever.
Fatty hasn't ever got away or done anything to make me believe there would be a problem, but at the end of the day she's still a horse and things can go wrong. And working in insurance I know this is one thing they would look at and also just how wrong it can go when it does go wrong.
I don't exactly have a huge choice in places to go but she currently has mild laminitis so staying where we are isn't an option either.

Definitely money changes hands, I can't do stabled DIY without assistance unfortunately. So a formal/regular arrangement, therefore not a non commercial basis and covered by regular insurance.
She has said as it's just cash in hand she's never seen the need, though it's her primary source of income so it should certainly be declared but I'm not going to get involved in that side of things, rightly or wrongly.

I'm less worried about an injury to her (although I would be mortified if something did happen of course) But more the repercussions of horse damaging someone/something else whilst under her care (and also being potentially hurt herself)
Or would it not be my problem?
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flying_high said:
No, if you read the small print, your insurance will only cover your horse, if no money changes hands, there will be an exception clause somewhere in the small print. If money changes hands, the liability is expected to sit with the person taking money for handling / dealing with the horse, and they should have professional liability insurance. Same as yard staff are covered under yard owners employer liability insurance.
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My NFU insurance covers my horses while they are ridden/ cared for by the freelancers we employ .
 
Goldenstar said:
My NFU insurance covers my horses while they are ridden/ cared for by the freelancers we employ .
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I suspect that is an add on you have? Or you have a wider policy than just a single horse amateur horse insurance keeping horse on livery? NFU cover land / building / premises / farms / businesses / horse businesses etc.

Standard one horse owner horse insurance at livery will typically have a clause about liability only occurring if no money changes hands and the handler are not doing so on a commercial basis.
 
I would worry if they had no insurance that they would not be covered for their negligence,which caused either illness or injury to my horse or anyone elses while looking after mine. Most dog walkers should have insurance and if I was the YO/YM I would want to see a copy of their liabilty insurance. Its all a bit dodge, it may never happan but if something did it becomes a mess.
 
I think this is quite a grey area. Most freelance groom insurance will only pay out if the groom is negligent I.e if the groom didn't shut the stable door properly and the horse escaped and injured itself. However if the groom was bringing the horse in, and the horse spooked and galloped off, escaping the handler and got injured that way, the groom was not negligent and so the insurance wouldn't pay out
 
I spoke to my insurers for clarity.
As I suspected, 3rd party and personal accident doesn't apply to anyone being paid to ride/handle the horse.
If it is a friend etc then it does cover them also, so long as they are doing so with my permission.
They confirmed if my horse was injured in her care I would need to claim off her, and that if there was an incident and damage to another person/property whilst under the care of a paid groom that would be dealt with under the groom's insurance, not mine, and if the groom isn't insured that's their decision but it would still be against them.
It's bonkers, it's £30 a month ish for 3rd party, care and custody cover, if you're doing it regularly why would you not have it?!?
 
Liability does NOT have to be proven in all circumstances
the owner horse can be liable if say a loose horse injures someone even though the owner is not present and no negligence is involved , strict liability , that’s was the Miravahedy ruling that found the owner of two horses liable for a motorists injuries even through neither they or those caring for the horse had been in any way negligent.
 
chaps89 said:
Agreed to move to a new yard, lady on the yard offers services and does so for many people on the yard.
Just by chance I asked if she's insured and she said no, only BHS Gold, but obviously that doesn't apply when she's being paid to ride/handle the horse.
Would this be an issue for you?
(Horse has insurance in place for third party and personal accident, but personal accident at least again doesn't apply for people being paid to ride/handle her, not sure about 3rd party, which is more my concern tbh)
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If she’s charging you, then yes she should have care, custody and control cover. If it’s just as a favour then I would think your the one that needs cover. I’m insured to handle my clients horse should the worst happen. Nobody thinks about stuff like this........................until they need to, then it’s too late ?‍♀️?
 
chaps89 said:
I spoke to my insurers for clarity.
As I suspected, 3rd party and personal accident doesn't apply to anyone being paid to ride/handle the horse.
If it is a friend etc then it does cover them also, so long as they are doing so with my permission.
They confirmed if my horse was injured in her care I would need to claim off her, and that if there was an incident and damage to another person/property whilst under the care of a paid groom that would be dealt with under the groom's insurance, not mine, and if the groom isn't insured that's their decision but it would still be against them.
It's bonkers, it's £30 a month ish for 3rd party, care and custody cover, if you're doing it regularly why would you not have it?!?
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The risk is all the groom' s so actually the owner doesn't really need to worry about it.
 
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