French or German methods?

[stangs]

I will admit that I dislike the polarisation that has developed around people following the French or German schools, no doubt reflective of the increase in polarisation across equestrianism and animal training as a whole. My line of thinking is that if Nuno Oliveira used methods and ideas from both camps, why would I stick to only one?

There's bits I like but I also spent a lot of time looking at horses whose faces didn't look relaxed - horses like to move forward.

This. I don't know what Baucher himself says about it (seriously need to re-read his work), but it was interesting to see the lady behind the slow walk group talking about how slow movement is reinforcing for the horse, because I really don't think that it is. Forward means satisfying needs sooner, forward means active play, forward means greater movement and use of the body - I don't think there's any species for which slow movement would be reinforcing, even if the definitions of what is slow and what is forward will differ. It just struck me as conflating speed caused by anxiety versus forwardness caused by motivation.

The other thing I struggle with, with the French school of thought, is how does one release tension through the jaw if you're not riding or working with a bit? Is it just a matter of working through exercises, and hoping the horse starts to release through the jaw on their own?

 

[Orangehorse]

We were working with a bit.

As always, there is the problem of interpretation. Someone will go for instruction, or to a clinic and latch onto one thing that they learnt. And it might not be 100% correct as unless they have lots of experience and study to understand the whole picture it can distort things.

I have seen a video of "students of Philippe Karl" being condemned for riding round with their hands and the reins held high and the whole method being laughed at. The riders in the video had incorrectly picked up on one aspect. In fact the "hands high" is to lift the bit slightly in the mouth and should be instantly released as the horse gives - definitely not riding round with the hands somewhere near the horse's ears.

I am not able to discuss this further, as my experience was merely one weekend at a clinic and reading the books, and all this a few years ago and I am not capable of discussing the theory or the practice, that needs a more learned rider!

 

[Walrus]

Thanks everyone, some really cool stuff. As with anything with horses I'm definitely not saying one way is "right". We all know horses haven't read the text books!

I do think it's interesting though and am definitely going to try and read a bit more into it.

 

[Alibear]

I'd heard the different methods formed around the different types of horses throughout Europe and military traditions. WWII decimated a lot of horses and thats when Germany became dominant with their carriage driving breeds/turned to sports horses and the German method came to the fore and became the basis of the dressage training pyramid etc. Difference between horses primarily bred to push versus those bred to pull. Now as mentioned the breeds have been evolved to new types.

 

[canteron]

We were working with a bit.

As always, there is the problem of interpretation. Someone will go for instruction, or to a clinic and latch onto one thing that they learnt. And it might not be 100% correct as unless they have lots of experience and study to understand the whole picture it can distort things.

I have seen a video of "students of Philippe Karl" being condemned for riding round with their hands and the reins held high and the whole method being laughed at. The riders in the video had incorrectly picked up on one aspect. In fact the "hands high" is to lift the bit slightly in the mouth and should be instantly released as the horse gives - definitely not riding round with the hands somewhere near the horse's ears.

I am not able to discuss this further, as my experience was merely one weekend at a clinic and reading the books, and all this a few years ago and I am not capable of discussing the theory or the practice, that needs a more learned rider!

Holding your hands a bit higher with only the weight of the bit in them helps you develop an independent seat.
Holding the hands even higher is for ‘action reaction’ and does need ‘feel’ to release immediately! (Big subject if you are interested need to research, I am still a student in this so not in a position to explain in one little post).

 

[tristars]

You see that's an interesting statement, that's it just simply balanced o
first (sorry, dont seem to be able to quote!). because what does it mean? My understanding is that both schools end up with a balanced horse but it's about the how you get there and actually what you physically do on the route to achieving that.

No offence but there's a lot of terms banded round about balance, feel and "leg to hand" etc and I really struggle with what is physically and practically going on. Because no professional is riding around with no contact and not doing anything and magically the horse is improving, they're doing something and it's exactly what that something is that I am thinking maybe a bit more reading about these different methods might give me some enlightenment (or at least something to think about!).

What is it exactly that you feel is missing when you ride, what are you trying to say is missing, where do you want to progress

 

[sbloom]

I think the poster further up was onto something when they mentioned different types of horses. As I agree both appear to have military background (I believe baucher trained the French cavalry before going back to the circus!). But I think the French horses were lighter, more tb / Arab influences perhaps and the German warmbloods more substantial?



I've tried the slow walk group but it just filled my feed with people posting so I came off it. I follow the no back no horse group and use some of their in hand stuff and also Kelly de geuass (sp?).

manolo is the French school isn't he? I'm only just starting to appreciate the difference!

It's not that kind of group, the work is in the featured posts, so it's about using the programme. It was "Slowvember" last year, a four week programme, which she has kept open. Dip in, read the first assignment and give it a go. NBNH I haven't seen in a few years as I was blocked for questioning the tension and incorrect function I was seeing in more than one video from the people who run it.

Slow work doesn't preclude fast work, it's about using the slow work for balancing, lots of people are doing fast work out hacking, and even some faster stuff in their ridden schooling. It's about understanding that every exercise, every approach, has a downside, potential issues we can cause if we do it too much (and of course if we do it wrong) and we need to be continually taking that into account, observing, and building our training around those downsides.

 

[maya2008]

It's worth remembering that the knowledge and skills needed to train a horse (in any method) develop with significant experience - years of riding different types of horse/pony, hour upon hour of training horses again and again, improving yourself each time. Any method will fall down unless supervised or carried out by an experienced, competent trainer. Feel, particularly, is so vitally important - knowing what it SHOULD feel like, and what is going on underneath you at that moment and being able to make the correct adjustments.

 

[Walrus]

It's not that kind of group, the work is in the featured posts, so it's about using the programme. It was "Slowvember" last year, a four week programme, which she has kept open. Dip in, read the first assignment and give it a go. NBNH I haven't seen in a few years as I was blocked for questioning the tension and incorrect function I was seeing in more than one video from the people who run it.

Slow work doesn't preclude fast work, it's about using the slow work for balancing, lots of people are doing fast work out hacking, and even some faster stuff in their ridden schooling. It's about understanding that every exercise, every approach, has a downside, potential issues we can cause if we do it too much (and of course if we do it wrong) and we need to be continually taking that into account, observing, and building our training around those downsides.

I must have found the wrong group then as I joined one after you'd mentioned it on here before and my Facebook feed was just filled with people posting questions on that group, it was overwhelming so I abandoned pretty quick.

 

[sbloom]

I must have found the wrong group then as I joined one after you'd mentioned it on here before and my Facebook feed was just filled with people posting questions on that group, it was overwhelming so I abandoned pretty quick.

Go to featured posts, most groups put the important stuff in there, and turn off notifications (you don't have to leave the group).

 

[Barklands]

Interesting thread. I have found out very recently in my whole life of riding how there’s been such differences.

I was born and grew up in Germany for example we were taught a leg yield by “pushing” the horse placing more weight on the opposite seat bone of direction of yield (so if you want your horse to yield to the left you are pushing with the right seatbone) and I believe this is taught differently in other traditions

I don’t think I now follow a certain way. I am not one for following certain methods all along but adopt things as I go along if they work for my horse she is my teacher now

This is also how I was taught to leg yield by my mother who was British Military trained!

 

[SEL]

You see that's an interesting statement, that's it just simply balanced
first (sorry, dont seem to be able to quote!). because what does it mean? My understanding is that both schools end up with a balanced horse but it's about the how you get there and actually what you physically do on the route to achieving that.

No offence but there's a lot of terms banded round about balance, feel and "leg to hand" etc and I really struggle with what is physically and practically going on. Because no professional is riding around with no contact and not doing anything and magically the horse is improving, they're doing something and it's exactly what that something is that I am thinking maybe a bit more reading about these different methods might give me some enlightenment (or at least something to think about!).

I was riding with a beautifully trained horse at a polework clinic a while back who showed us all what balance really was. Even on tight turns there was no shoulder dropping, no motorbike around the corners, no change in tempo. It was a delight to watch.

For me at that clinic - especially on the left rein - I was having to make sure we didn't drop onto the left shoulder. I also have to make sure he doesn't rush. To achieve that I'm giving tonnes of little half halts (sometimes bigger half halts), left rein often elevated to stop the shoulder collapsing, trying to persuade him to take his neck down and out etc etc. The professionals will be doing all of that 1000% better and more discretely! I doubt many of them care much about "method" tbh they are just correcting that wayward shoulder or stopping the quarters falling in. I had a good session with my saddler once (she's also a BHS coach) where she pointed out that on one rein I virtually needed to be riding leg yield to straighten him. We've mainly got through that now but I could feel from the saddle we weren't straight but needed the eyes on the ground to help me out - I needed to make my 'straight' much clearer and more defined than I was. A pro would have nailed that much earlier.

I dive in and out of exercises that work for me. Poles can get a bad name because people just see pictures of horses being drilled over them, but I use them a huge amount in my schooling and they really help a horse understand what is needed for an exercise. Poles are not in German or French methods as far as I'm aware though. I've used some exercises from Ritter to help the wayward shoulder, but equally my cob needs to move forwards and a week of slow walk exercises when the ground was frozen didn't do a lot for his flexibility.

Reading helps but often watching at clinics helps more. I wasn't enamoured with one of the PK clinics I observed but I did actually take away quite a lot from it in terms of what they were trying to achieve

 

[Time for Tea]

This is also how I was taught to leg yield by my mother who was British Military trained!

The Pony Club manual volume published in 1997, states the riders inside leg either on or slightly behind the girth moves the horse over, the outside leg ensures forward movement and maintains the straightness. Perhaps seat bone pressure is a more subtle way.

 

[sbloom]

The Pony Club manual volume published in 1997, states the riders inside leg either on or slightly behind the girth moves the horse over, the outside leg ensures forward movement and maintains the straightness. Perhaps seat bone pressure is a more subtle way.

The right seat bone pressure and body alignment should, if we're being trained correctly, reduce the leg aid needed, sometimes to zero if you watch the old masters. The PC manual would be very much like BHS I suspect, which is more German influenced.

 

[criso]

Many years ago in pony club some of us were selected for a dressage course, I think it was someone well known, this was in the 80s.

They taught the opposite of the military way mentioned for leg yield, dropping the hip on the way you want to move to encourage the horse to bend its body to take up the weight.

Not saying right or wrong, just sharing as the discussion reminded me.

 

[maya2008]

Many years ago in pony club some of us were selected for a dressage course, I think it was someone well known, this was in the 80s.

They taught the opposite of the military way mentioned for leg yield, dropping the hip on the way you want to move to encourage the horse to bend its body to take up the weight.

Not saying right or wrong, just sharing as the discussion reminded me.

That is what I was taught - and young horses instinctively respond well to it.

 

[Skib]

They taught the opposite of the military way mentioned for leg yield, dropping the hip on the way you want to move to encourage the horse to bend its body to take up the weight.

So glad you posted that. Because my (adult) confusion arose from being taught those two different and contradictory ways at two different RSs. And now you have explained it.

 

[Alibear]

Yep the follow the weight approach so where you put your weight is the direction in which the horse goes. That then goes up to intention, where you can do either, and the horse gets it. Following the weight might be used to get more flow, and weighting the opposite hip might be to get more step/cross-over.

 

[Skib]

Yep the follow the weight approach so where you put your weight is the direction in which the horse goes. That then goes up to intention, where you can do either, and the horse gets it.

I have gone from an adult learner making notes on cues, to sort of clueless. The mare I now ride either reads my mind (via my seat) or is so used to carrying passenger sharers that she makes her own way round the bridle track. I will ride her properly next week and think about it.

 

[Time for Tea]

That is what I was taught - and young horses instinctively respond well to it.

I shall experiment on my Foresters

 

[spotty_pony2]

It very much depends on the horse for me. The Friesian was broken in Holland and so is very ‘german’ (albeit Dutch) in his way of going and the way he is ridden but he is a sensitive soul so I have incorporated a bit of the ‘french’ way with him over the time..

The two appaloosas - well good luck trying to ride my old boy in german style - he’d have you on the floor. My mare fights and gets very wound up too in this method. i’ve found both respond more with a gentler ‘asking’ approach and prefer being ridden into a contact with a longer rein.

 

[UKa]

That is what I was taught - and young horses instinctively respond well to it.

I might try this on my young pony

 

[UKa]

The Pony Club manual volume published in 1997, states the riders inside leg either on or slightly behind the girth moves the horse over, the outside leg ensures forward movement and maintains the straightness. Perhaps seat bone pressure is a more subtle way.

The German riding tradition is very much based traditionally on the military - hence when I was young a riding lesson could for some feel more like a drill with some instructors regularly shouting at us pupils. Luckily this is now a thing of the past….

 

[Time for Tea]

The German riding tradition is very much based traditionally on the military - hence when I was young a riding lesson could for some feel more like a drill with some instructors regularly shouting at us pupils. Luckily this is now a thing of the past….

Yes, things have improved for youngsters, though I think you might still find some shouting and military style drill in some pony clubs.
But generally much more sympathetic. Though I remember my daughter disliking what she called wishy washy instructors, in pony club, and preferring a more direct, brisk correction.