Freshly Qualified Vets - Do you trust them? *Rant Warning*

glenruby said:
Professionals are so much easier to work with.
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Actually, judging by both Janets and my own comments, I really don't think we are easier to work with :o Sorry but when you have thousands upon thousands tied up in bloodstock business assets most of us do demand exemplary service. Most of us are pretty damn good at figuring out economic viabilities thus we often don't tolerate incompetence lightly. As I said previously, I am not unaccepting of nqvs coming on my premises and learning but when I have an emergency situation I do not need a newly qualified vet dithering about what to do. I want someone who knows how to deal with the situation and gets stuck in there to try to rectify the problem.
 
Yes but from my xperience I stand by what I said. The pony owners and happy hackers very often listen more to the yard know it all than the vet when it comes to veterinary care. They do not respect youung vets opinions. The professional calls the vet in for a specific reason and (in general) appreciates their opinion and skills. I have worked for racehorse trainers and studs in ireland, UK and the US and find them infinitely easier to deal with than the pleasure horse owning poplation. The boundaries are already laid and expectations of both sides are already known. It makes it easier to go in and do my job.

Maybe that is because I do have extensive horse experience and understand racing, breeidng industries etc. I dont think anyone who cannot "talk horses" with an owner of any sort can expect to have an easy ride. The only occasion i have felt embarrassed by my lack of knowledge was when turning up to medicate fetlocks and hocks on a filly on the track in the US. My boss had phoned me last minute to go to this trainers barn while i was at the track on other business. I was not familiar with the trainer. The assistant trainer asked me if i knew of a number of horses - and listed them all off. I replied that i hadnt. I usually mke it my business to be upto speed on my clients latest results and successes - to not be aware of any of their better horses was downright embarrassing. I was excused for being a foreigner though - I ahd arrived in the country 3 days previously!

Edited to say - I had no prblems with the task itslef.

I totally understand that a dithering vet is no good at instilling confidence in clients and as a student seeing practice with those sort of vets was cringworthy. Perhaps thats why as a new graduate I felt the need to make decisions quickly or phone my boss for advice after expressing my opinion - nobody ever marked me down for that. In fact, I think thats the best thing a new graduate cn do if they are unsure. Many clients told my boss they appraciated that I spoke to the senior vets if i was unsure. I guess I am also lucky that i am a practical sort of person so have had no issues with my practical skills.
 
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While i do really feel for nqv, i think the main issues are when they dont ask/phone for guidance and advice. I have way more respect for someone who will admit theyre needing advice from a more experienced person regarding situations when they feel out of their depth ..... There is no shame in that, you dont automatically know everything when you qualify in any job.
The very fact that a more senior person has discussed the vets findings with them to help them with a diagnosis or treatment can make the owner and vet feel more at ease and give a better outcome for all involved.
 
don't forget Hollycatt your vet school is abroad and from the sounds of it is nowhere near as high standards as the UK vet schools.
NQvets have lots to learn, they can only learn by being in practise, most are going home to look stuff up when they don't know, some will try and cover their backs. Absoloutely for a difficult or complex problem I would take a less recently grad. vet every time but somebody has got to be their first case in every aspect.
As for students doing injections, injections are easy. With a vet supervising them there is nothing going to happen. And whoever said vets should be horse owners if they want to work with horses-I'm afraid everyone is not that priveleged as a child/young adult. These attitudes are why horse owners get the reputation they do.
Being a difficult client who the vets can only send the senior vet to is nothing to be proud of.. They probably roll their eyes when they talk about you and don't disagree with what you say in front of you to stop you blowing a fuse...
Ask questions, if youa re not satisfied with the answer confirm it with a second opinion. Be humble enough to apologise if you are wrong.
 
Oh and often if a senior vet(or doctor) treats a patient and it dies, the response is that it would die anyway/the problem could not be solved
When a junior person sdoes it, often people think that a different outcome could have been had when it might not have been.
 
Here here SusieT. The boss's clients are not known as the "high maintenance" ones for nothing. So much of your post rings true!
 
On re-reading my post, I suppose it wasnt meant to be against NQV and was possibly a bit harder on them than intended, its just that if you have a brilliant senior vet then any NQV however good, is going to lack the pure experience which counts for so much with horses and so is by definition going to take a longer route to come to a conclusion.

My original post was made after I had just received a bill for £150. After taking bloods, sedating (twice) to inspect she then talked to senior vet who gave the advice over phone that it was water retention - solved by a bit of a controlled (if limpy) walk out. That is a lot of money to pay because I was too 'nice' to insist on the senior vet.

But this vet will one day make a fantastic vet, nice manner with horse, etc, etc. It really is how to balance the desire not to be unwelcoming to NQVs against protecting the horse and my wallet against unneccessary procedures? Maybe the surgery should be a little bit more supportive to the NVQ and possibly even temper some of their invoices to allow the NVQ a bit more latitude?

But thanks everyone for your responses, glad I am not the only grumpy horse owner!
 
Canteron- without the blood tests (and I assume horse was being a prat to inspect hence the sedation) it is quite possible senior vet would nto have been able to diagnose as they ruled out other causes. Plus I fail to understand how a vet can diagnose 'water retention' over the phone unless the NQV was giving sufficient information to rule out all other problems i could be. I would be more upset by the vet diagnosing over the phone than the vet who took the time to investigate (and 150 is not a bad bill at all for all that!)
 
marydoll said:
While i do really feel for nqv, i think the main issues are when they dont ask/phone for guidance and advice. I have way more respect for someone who will admit theyre needing advice from a more experienced person regarding situations when they feel out of their depth ..... There is no shame in that, you dont automatically know everything when you qualify in any job.
The very fact that a more senior person has discussed the vets findings with them to help them with a diagnosis or treatment can make the owner and vet feel more at ease and give a better outcome for all involved.
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I agree with this. I have no problem whatsoever with newly qualified vets in general, but have met quite a few that were almost defensive over their decisions, some of which weren't good ones. I've also met one or two senior vets that were not my ideal either. Last week I saw a fairly junior vet with my dog, and he was very honest in that he would rather take a sample and sent off to have it checked, rather than guess. I had a lot of respect for that. All vets of every level should be able to talk to their clients and hear what they think - the owner knows the horse better and can sometimes give good clues. That said, many owners nowadays think they know everything and must be a nightmare!

My friend's son is a vet, and competition to get onto a vet's course was so fierce that he had to do a lot of general work on farms, in vets and at stables before going to uni, just to have more animal husbandry skills.
 
SusieT said:
Canteron- without the blood tests (and I assume horse was being a prat to inspect hence the sedation) it is quite possible senior vet would nto have been able to diagnose as they ruled out other causes. Plus I fail to understand how a vet can diagnose 'water retention' over the phone unless the NQV was giving sufficient information to rule out all other problems i could be. I would be more upset by the vet diagnosing over the phone than the vet who took the time to investigate (and 150 is not a bad bill at all for all that!)
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SuzieT. It was pretty obvious is you looked at his sheath. He is the most laid back horse ever and I had thoroughly checked it for bites etc, and when you touch it, you left a finger mark!! He had been on stable rest (big big clue). Well, senior vet knew immediately over phone, so sorry sweetie, if you are in that line of business think you might have considered it too. But thanks for your contribution and glad that £150 isn't much to you.
 
Actually canteron - your vet was just doing his/her job thoroughly. Im guessing the blood results were through before the senior vet "diagnosed" the condition. (btw water retention is not a "diagnosis" for anything equine). If your horse had infact had heart failure or a protein lsing enteropathy Im sure you would be the first to pint the finger at the poor incompetent junior vet who didnt blood test your horse or would they have been meant to sense it? Of course getting the horse moving gently IS part of the treatment of the symptoms either way.
 
To be honest I have never had any problems with the vets for my horses. Even in the middle of all the snow last year when my horse got colic. The surgery rang and asked if you could get into the yard in an ordinary car as non of the regular vets were available. I suspect the one who came was a small animal vet but he was fantastic. I explained that my old boy would only leave the yard in a box, he could do whatever he thought necessary in the stable but not take him anywhere. He did everything he could and the old lad survived.

However I did have a bad experience with young vets from my old practice and my old dog. After agonising for weeks I took him in to be PTS, he was 18 years old, blind, deaf and his back end was going. They made me feel like a murderer and talked me into all sorts of treatment. 6 months later I was back demanding to see a senior partner who put him to sleep immediately. Poor old lad had no quality of life for those months. I felt they did that just to push the limits and see if they could keep him going. Good practice for them perhaps but heartbreaking for me.
 
I had a newly qualified vet to my horse who had obvious hoof lameness in a hind. I know that the first line of thinking with hind leg lameness is the hocks, but the new vet spouted off straight away about needing hospitalisation for joint injections. He also wanted to treat small sarcoids at the same time that the senior vet had already advised to leave well alone.

I explained that a digital pulse was felt in one foot only but still no joy :rolleyes:

He was very friendly but simply over enthusiastic and jumping to text book conclusions before examining properly.

He then had another horse's teeth to rasp and stopped before he got started, it was actually the rough and ready to the point hay delivery farmer who held the horse and told him to get the job done properly.

A week later horse still lame and I rang the practice saying I wan't happy with the diagnosis, senior vet came out and sure enough it was ddft in the hoof. Thank goodness I hadn't racked up a huge bill with hospitalisation! Still had two call outs and examinations to pay for though. I am now 'just' a happy hacker and pony owner, but have been professional and have plenty of experience, so don't see how that justifies negating an owners opinion btw - I pay for a service just the same.

In the new vets defence we had him out for a colic about a year later and he was different again, so he must have picked up plenty of experience in that year that made all the difference. I do think that a bit more supervision or overseeing is needed once they are practicing properly for the first few months.
 
rockysmum said:
However I did have a bad experience with young vets from my old practice and my old dog. After agonising for weeks I took him in to be PTS, he was 18 years old, blind, deaf and his back end was going. They made me feel like a murderer and talked me into all sorts of treatment. 6 months later I was back demanding to see a senior partner who put him to sleep immediately. Poor old lad had no quality of life for those months. I felt they did that just to push the limits and see if they could keep him going. Good practice for them perhaps but heartbreaking for me.
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I've had this experience twice in the last year but with the senior vet in our practice. On each occasion we as a family had decided that the quality of life for our old girls had deteriorated to the extent that their time had come.

On the first occasion the vet insisted on lengthy and expensive treatment which extended her misery (and ours) by 6 months. In the end it was a young vet who agreed to PTS.

On the second occasion the vet decided to operate - even tho he had been asked to PTS -and the dog died following being put through the stress of an operation.

Do you wonder I'm disillusioned?
 
I've not read all of the replies but my opinion is that vet training should be changed.

They are expected to know so much and frankly I think it's impossible. It's my opinion that after a couple of years of study covering all animals that they should then specialise; be it in small animal, large animal, exotic, birds etc.

Having had final year vet students take horse's history while in the uni vet hospital and ask me when she last vomited I can say I pity the client that had them out in an emergency.

While I was answering the questions 6 others tasked themselves with holding, de-booting and de-tail bandaging my mare clearly showing they had no clue about how to handle or approach strange horses. Thankfully my horse was sweet as but a student at each leg and one directly behind is surely not how they were taught?

I'm with an equine practice and now will always request two of the senior vets; no one else. Obviously in an emergency it's who comes out but 2 out of 3 isn't bad odds. It wasn't a NQV who made up the team but still younger and after not recognising a large and obvious curb instead telling me it was a lower hock problem but that she was rubbish with hock anatomy and wasn't sure what bones were affected (none, btw) I've made sure from them on to ask for the vet I want.

I know they are human and it's impossible to know it all but I can say I don't trust their opinions and if they care to diagnose something now I'll go home and research it myself and speak to knowledgeable horse people who have years of experience that they are kind enough to share. It's my opinion that if I hadn't listened to any of my vets over the years and instead gone home and googled then the outcome would have been very different for some of my horses. You live and you learn; the same can only be true for the vets.
 
A horse vet who doesn't know hock anatomy is a poor vet whether they are NQ or 20years experience, and that has nothing to do with the NQ status or not, that's just a poor vet.
Regarding talkign to knowledgeable horse people, that is one of the worst things you can do. Look at all the advice given on this forum which is often frankly dangerous and harmful as often as being totally unhelpful, 'knowedgeable horsey people' often think they are so but have no idea what they are talking about and are only going on misconceptions.
 
As far as I know all student vets in Scottish vet schools have to have practical training and select specialisations in the later years.
I believe that first year vets are the most likely to be prosecuted for incompetence I may be wrong, but then I am not a vet, just an incompetent horse person.
I think if you have a look through the vet forum, a lot of people are told to call out a vet especially if the symptoms are acute or chronic and have not been seen by a vet.
 
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I guess it should depend on the practice, and the individual person. OH's practice takes on NQ vets, but they always have a partner on 3rd call with them until they're confident and happy on their own, and all know they can call one of the more experienced vets if they have any queries - all the juniors have OH's personal number (and he's not a partner) and he's gone out and given second opinions or just done stuff if needed when not on call if one of the non-equine vets needs help. Same with smallies, if anyone has doubts/needs help, one of the more experienced vets is there to help as most of the assistants live near the practice.

I think that the training should stay the same - Glasgow does force people to choose between large and equine in the final year, but I do think that there should be maximum rotation group sizes for accredited degrees. OH was in a group of 4, the max was 5 when he was at Cambridge. Different from the 20 or so at London!

As for ownership - that isn't necessary to be good at handling horses or a vet - neither OH nor his boss own horses (although OH did with his ex). We do have a dog, but will only own a cat when we live somewhere suitable (roads/cat flap possibilities). I've seen my OH go up to a het up racehorse desperate to continue the race and get it to settle down and load into the ambulance having examined the damaged tendon - he says its just using soft body language, hiding the head torch, stethoscope and needles until needed.
 
There will be new graduates in every practice. Your fantastic vet who knows everything was a new grad once too. They all have to start somewhere.

New grads are clued right up on all the lastest techniques and methods, they may lack hands on experience, but the older vets are always tapping in to their knowledge.

Give them a break. Horse owners are a complete nightmare, most think they know more than any vet :rolleyes: Be a good client, you'll get a lot more out of your practice.
 
SusieT said:
Regarding talkign to knowledgeable horse people, that is one of the worst things you can do. Look at all the advice given on this forum which is often frankly dangerous and harmful as often as being totally unhelpful, 'knowedgeable horsey people' often think they are so but have no idea what they are talking about and are only going on misconceptions.
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Can you give us two examples of dangerous advice given this week please?
People are not obliged to come on here, and certainly not expected to take all the advice they get, they are generally looking for a few ideas, not a full diagnosis from someone with no vet qualifications and no horse available for examination.
 
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Absolutley not! Based on similar experience, i moved away from our local practise as i always ended up getting the new vets who came through their doors. Even basics missed, for a vaccination they didn't even check his heart. We had one out in January, in the snow, this year for a colic case who wouldn't medicate, even though the owner was used to this and knew it worked. The lady didn't want to hang around and wanted to go out sledging......... A complaint was duly made.

I think you should be able to request who you want, after all you are paying.

I've moved to a small practise with only two vets, who care and if they don't know they always refer. Swap practise there are some great vets out there.
 
elderlycoupleindevon said:
There will be new graduates in every practice. Your fantastic vet who knows everything was a new grad once too. They all have to start somewhere.

New grads are clued right up on all the lastest techniques and methods, they may lack hands on experience, but the older vets are always tapping in to their knowledge.

Give them a break. Horse owners are a complete nightmare, most think they know more than any vet :rolleyes: Be a good client, you'll get a lot more out of your practice.
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All I've got out of one practice this year is a load of bills, and precious little advice.
This is the first time in my life I have had any issues with any vet, and if I ever have a difficult diagnosis, I will go elsewhere.
I rather thought that NQ vets were getting off quite lightly tbh, it is the responsibilty of the practice to ensure that their staff are capable of the work required, and if they need supervision/advice, this should be arranged.
 
SusieT said:
A horse vet who doesn't know hock anatomy is a poor vet whether they are NQ or 20years experience, and that has nothing to do with the NQ status or not, that's just a poor vet.
Regarding talkign to knowledgeable horse people, that is one of the worst things you can do. Look at all the advice given on this forum which is often frankly dangerous and harmful as often as being totally unhelpful, 'knowedgeable horsey people' often think they are so but have no idea what they are talking about and are only going on misconceptions.
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I'm lucky in that my "knowledgeable gurus" actually are who do know what they are talking about. Although I wholeheartedly agree that it is easy to be led astray by forums and self proclaimed experts.

MrsD123- my experience was at Edinburgh Dick Vet, the uni hospital. No idea of specific training but these were final year students (about 8 of them) being overseen by one of the teaching vets.
 
To become a vet you have to be seriously clever, I do not know if its the same now but it used to a lot harder to get into vetinary school than medical school. All right some like some docters don't have the phyiscal and manual skills to be good with patients, never mind bedside manner but most get there in the end.
I used to watch junior docters do examinations in A&E on their own and then watch a senior docter see the patient, most of the time they where correct with no great gaffs.
I use the vetinary school as my vets, and I like the students to handle my horse or how are they to learn, and encourage them to do things. No wonder they are so nervous if every one is out to find fault.
It seems evenyone wants a five star service but if every NQV was supervised the cost would double and your local vets is a buisiness. My last vet had to give up large animal practice, which he was very good at because he could find no one to cover out of hours.
I do agree though if you think someone is out of their depth its time to say, 'no I want someone else'. I have only once had to do this with a locum who had no horse skills what so ever and she was going to get hurt.
 
Booboos said:
As a general reply, I am bit shocked at how quickly people can dismiss young vets as incompetent, uncarring fools. These are the same vets who have busted a gut to get into vet school in the first place, studied like crazy to qualify, are stuck with huge uni loans, get crappy salaries, have to be on-call nights and weekends, have to be able to deal with a huge variety of animals and, if this thread is anything to go by, even put up with their less than pleasant owners!
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Totally agree with you :D
 
SusieT said:
A horse vet who doesn't know hock anatomy is a poor vet whether they are NQ or 20years experience, and that has nothing to do with the NQ status or not, that's just a poor vet.
Regarding talkign to knowledgeable horse people, that is one of the worst things you can do. Look at all the advice given on this forum which is often frankly dangerous and harmful as often as being totally unhelpful, 'knowedgeable horsey people' often think they are so but have no idea what they are talking about and are only going on misconceptions.
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As one of the knowledgeable very experienced horse people on here you are talking a load of ****! There is a fountain of great and accurate advice on here and most will suggest the vet anyway unless it is a minor problem.
 
I prefer NQ vets to the oldies - they are more open minded, information is fresh in their mind, and they are more likely to ask for help/opinions if they're not sure!
 
Evelyn said:
As one of the knowledgeable very experienced horse people on here you are talking a load of ****! There is a fountain of great and accurate advice on here and most will suggest the vet anyway unless it is a minor problem.
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Agree, most will say if in doubt call a vet unless very sure of their facts
 
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