Friday Afternoon Debate

Tempi

Tempi

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I know the Rollkur/LDR debate is much gone over turf. However pictures have been released in a Swedish magazine of 15-year old Angela Krooswijk, lunging her pony in 'rollkur' under the supervision of her trainer:

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(photo taken from Eurodressage)

Now to me this isnt Rollkur, and im sure it isn't Anky's Rollkur/LDR either.....In my mind Rollkur/LDR is working the horse long and low with it swinging over its back - ive watched videos of Anky riding and explaining LDR and this isnt what shes explained.

To me the poor pony is having its head forced in by the use of over tight drawreins - now the question is, why is the trainer letting this 15yo think this is correct? Surely anyone can see that the pony can hardly move, let alone get into LDR even if it wanted to? The picture was taken at the 2007 European Pony Championships in Germany.........
 
That is horrible and the pony must have a mouth like concrete as a result...what a bad image for the sport (grumpy smilie)
 
That pony just looks bloody uncomfortable and this is not doing anything towards a 'dressage' career in my opinion. Being fastened in this position is just going to make it tight through the back, neck and poll
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Everything that you want it to be loose in for dressage.
 
OMG that looks AWFUL and that pony has not one ounce of muscle over its backend- you can see its all wasted away behind.Therefore proves the theory that working them in this fashion is completly incorrect.
I agree with you PG that is not Rollkur in that picture that is pure cruelty. as you say, To me Rollkur is working the horse long and low with a swinging back and having him stretch OUTWARDS with the nose out not in.
 
Exactly - and you can see how the poor pony has hardly any topline and just a huge neck - probably due to them lunging it like that as im assuming they use that 'technique' on it at home aswell
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Muscle/topline issue aside for a moment, I think it is easy to judge from a photo which is after all just a snapshot in time. how do you know the trainer was not explaning why the biomechanics of this is wrong and does not help correct development? how do you know that this was not being done at home without the trainers knowledge and they were showing them how it affects the movement and therefore why another way is better.

I am just playing devil's advocate, but since the full story behind the pic is not known (unless someone was there and speaking to them as this went on - in which case I take it back, and I don't mean someone from Eurodressage), jumping to conclusions seems a little premature.
 
What a horrible picture! I really do not understand what they think they are acheiving! Correct rollkur does have it's place in training the horse but that is just forcing the pony into an unnatural outline where the poor pony obviously can't more. The neck is flexed at the wrong point so it won't be building muscle up, there is no way that pony coould stretch or swing it's back and it is just creating a bad image for the sport of dressage! Dressage is about correct training, not forcing a horse to be submissive due to pain/fear. It concerns me that the girl in question was competing at the German European Pony Champs if that is one of her methods of training!
 
OMG, Now I have seen "rolkur" pictures under saddle that have also disgusted me, bet at least they have been at the hands of the riders,therefore the option to release the pressure at any time has been there (still inexcusable IMO) but the way that horse has been roped in is unacceptable and is just leading to, as dtd has pointed out, incorrect muscle developement and a recipe for injury.
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This picture (and a series of others of the same pony) have sparked huge debate on the continent and flared up old debates on Rollkur/LDR.....

I very much doubt she was telling the child 'this is how not to do it'
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And also from the visible lack of topline and muscle apart from in the ponies neck, it looks like its often lunged like this.......
 
And people have a go at SJ'ers for using draw reins
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It's not just dressage you see this sort of thing happenning at though...go to any BSPS type show and watch the little show ponies being lunged with their heads tied to their chests....disgusting imo
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No that's not my idea of it either - that just looks dangerous! I can't really see the value of this without the rider...

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In my mind Rollkur/LDR is working the horse long and low with it swinging over its back

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I understood Rollkur/LDR as working low but certainly not long... My understanding was also that the extreme positioning was not maintained for long periods and was released and rewarded regularly.
 
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This picture (and a series of others of the same pony) have sparked huge debate on the continent and flared up old debates on Rollkur/LDR.....

I very much doubt she was telling the child 'this is how not to do it'
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And also from the visible lack of topline and muscle apart from in the ponies neck, it looks like its often lunged like this.......

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I did say muscle/topline aside - I can see the lack of development in other areas that suggest the pony is not being worked correctly. However, in terms of what was being said/done/attempted you may very much doubt the trainer was showing them why it is wrong to do it that way, but you (and everyone else - this is not personally aimed at you!) don't know that the trainer wasn't telling her not to do it like that.

I am not saying what is being done is right or that I condone it, just that a picture cannot tell the whole story and therefore it is easy to judge people harshly. I happen to agree with the assumptions being made in terms of the ponies development, but I still don't know the full story - does this person use more than one trainer for example, one of whom condones things like this, one who doesn't? Have they recently swapped trainers and are they therefore being told why this is wrong? There are so many missing bits of the picture, it is easy to jump to conclusions.
 
Nasty. My horse woud flip itself over backwards if I strapped it in that tight. She has common sense!
Shocking how ignorant some peope are, even at the top levels.
 
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No that's not my idea of it either - that just looks dangerous! I can't really see the value of this without the rider...

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In my mind Rollkur/LDR is working the horse long and low with it swinging over its back

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I understood Rollkur/LDR as working low but certainly not long... My understanding was also that the extreme positioning was not maintained for long periods and was released and rewarded regularly.

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It does involve lengthening of the neck tho, and then bringing the horses nose in, as opposed to having the nose infront (if you see what i mean!)
 
See to me that's Rollkur pure and simple as that's exactly as all the other photo's I've seen posted of it and I've seen ones with Anky riding in the same position.
But all moment in time jobs.

Reading between the lines it seems that professionals Rollkur isn't what this picture shows but this picture does show what mere mortals have interpreted it as and are doing to their poor horses hence the uproar. And some mortals who do this are not as "mere" as others.
 
Usually with rollkur, they'd be wanting the neck slightly lower imo. The point of it initially was to help riders lift their horses back (more specifically female riders on big, big warmblood horses).

But for me, this is one of the main problems with rollkur. Someone like anky puts her name behind a certain technique and it will, of course, get copied and not always correctly.

Fact is that if you work a horse like that for long enough, thats how it will work regardless. Ive seen it used a LOT for this reason by riders who are preparing horses for competition for clients who perhaps really arent skilled enough to ride their horse correctly (trying to be polite here.. but read it as full liveries who ride perhaps once every few weeks but pay trainers to make sure they can go to a competition and win)

The problem for me comes down to the fact that horses trained this way can be placed and can win at international level dressage. Its hard to judge completly without seeing the ridden piccies of course but when this form of training produces results that allow people to win at international level... the morals and the welfare of the horse go out of the window.

Do we know who the trainer is out of interest PG?
 
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Nasty. My horse woud flip itself over backwards if I strapped it in that tight. She has common sense!
Shocking how ignorant some peope are, even at the top levels.

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Agreed, and how much trouble are these horses having with their breathing whilst in this frame???
 
I have to say i think Anky did have to back track somewhat over the whole rollkur debate.

I think she is guilty of riding far too much in hyperflexion but she came under so much fire from various bodies that there was a certain amount of back tracking done. That being said, i also suspect she has better intentions behind it and while yes, pictures of her riding in rollkur may LOOK the same as this, you'll see that the horses are usually showing some degree of lift over their backs and are tracking up correctly. Its gained in an artificial way - but its still there. The problem is, people only look at the head position and assume theres nothing else going on.
 
It's a wonder the poor thing can breathe in some of those pics.

Looking at the results of the Euro champs this was at, this pony finished 4th or 5th in all it's classes with scores of 70+
 
And this shows it's over-developed neck post-training.
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Clever. makes it look like he is soft and flexed in the neck when really it's just an over-developed crest. But it is pretty obvious that this horse is not strong behind so I presume would not be able to manage advanced moves properly?
 
Mmm i agree with you.

You know i dont like rollkur to begin with but i can see the philosophy behind it at least - well in some cases.

But im not seeing what good they are hoping to achieve in this case
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The pony looks very disengaged over his back, you can see from his foot falls that he's not really going anywhere so id imagine it was stiffling his movement (which rollkur definitly isnt about).

The last yard i was on had one particular pony that was lunged every few days in very very tight side reins (comparable to that really). The justification for this was that his young rider (11 years old) struggled with him and it acted as a reminder to him... he was a sharp pony for sure although im not convinced it helped that much.

Nop, sorry, I hate rollkur but i do TRY to be open minded about everyones methods - but i just dont understand what thats doing. I would be intrigued to know how long they were doing it for and i wish to god there were some pictures of him in trot or canter.
 
That is a disgusting pictureAfter my daughter got placed at the grassroutes championships ,I posted that people probably thought she was mad in warming up because she rides on quite a long ,loose rein and tries to get our eventer to relax for quite a long time before taking any contact. It doesn't always work but we know he gets tense if asked to come into contact too soon.
I was really chuffed when I got a pm from a rider warming up at the same time ,to say how nice it was to see a rider working a horse in like that and how loose and supple he looked.
I hate this forced position and really wish judges would mark short necks and crookedness down severely.I hate draw reins and I'm fed up with people saying they are alright if you know how to use them. I do use a pessoa on the lunge ,I can watch the action of the hind legs and make sure the horse is tracking up and straight.
I feel so sorry for that poor horse
 
Yea you see there again, he looks heavy infront, disengaged over the back and not tracking up. He just looks very stiffled and not really going anywhere to me.

His outline isnt correct either - quite typically of the rollkured horse, he breaks at the wrong point in the neck rather than having the poll higher.

I mean, on the surface its a cute enough picture of a nice pony and a tidy rider but its easy to pick the faults. The question for me remains - WHY is a combination like that getting those scores?
 
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