Friday Afternoon Debate

Aaaaaaaaaaaah to be fair
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there are a lot of well known trainers working with young riders who are huge fans and practioners of rollkur
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This is Anky Rollkur using the technique in her warm-up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moTxBLAEhLw

What ever eveyone's views are on this method, it looks however considerably different to the pony above - seems to me that she uses it to encourage her horse to stretch out his back muscles. He seems soft and relaxed and she does release occaisionally. Not really sure about the pros and cons but think the pony people are utterly misguided and not even using the system correctly.
 
Thank you for finding that, i was trying to find some pics of Anky earlier, but im really busy at work so couldnt do much looking!! Yes, it certainly is very different to how the pony is being lunged.
 
Thanks for those little mare, IMO, there are several ponies in those pictures that look "victims" of the same methods. The Swedish ponies and the british ponies are the only ones IMHO that dont look overdeveloped and "broken" in their neck.
 
I think someone should send copies of those photos to the judges,to make them think but I suppose they may have been foreign judges, who we are told are much better than our judges!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It makes me think and swear!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
http://www.sustainabledressage.com/rollkur/index.php

Basically its something Anky started by riding her horses long and round so there noses were in - as oposed to long and low when the nose is stretching forwards.

Watch the video that OrangeEmpire posted - that will give you an idea.

If used correctly then i dont see a problem with the method - but when used incorrectly (like the girl/trainer/pony we are dicussing) then the horse/pony developes incorrectly and is week behind - as seen in the pictures of said pony.

Some people dont agree at all in the technique, thats why there is/was such a huge debate about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollkur
 
I always thought rollkur was lower in the neck with the head behind the vertical, and the horse working over its back. That horse clearly isnt working over its back and its poll is far too high for Rollkur IMO. I think LDR has its place but there is such a fine line between being correct and incorrect and far too many people get it wrong, resulting in the above.

The scary thing is people will see these pictures and copy thinking its correct because of who it is.
 
Looking at the pony in the competition pictures you can see that he is clearly way out behind and hollow. Not surprising really, if this is how he has been trained. Shame as he is a very sweet looking thing.

This is exactly what Anky and Sjef said they were afraid of - that people would take their method without understanding it, and just crank heads in, which will do nothing other than produce the horrid muscling and weakness that this pony clearly demonstrates.

I'm glad these pictures have come to light. That trainer should be ashamed.
 
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This is exactly what Anky and Sjef said they were afraid of - that people would take their method without understanding it, and just crank heads in, which will do nothing other than produce the horrid muscling and weakness that this pony clearly demonstrates.

I'm glad these pictures have come to light. That trainer should be ashamed.

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exactly....
 
I think this taken form the message board, with the pictures of the dun pony, sums it up....

Oh mon dieu :-O

I'm with Carthorse, have to warm up on loose rein to avoid tension and that pony looks so tense and uncomfortable. Poor little mite
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That's an interesting vid Ali. The horse is Idool, I think, so the video must be rather old. I *think* I can see what she is doing here, however, and I think that their method has evolved since then. In this vid, she started with him very round and deep and the passage is extremely difficult, then she allows him to come up slightly and you see the passage suddenly become brilliant, then she brings him down again. I *guess* that this very deep positioning would make the passage when poll high very big, with lots of elevation but without getting hollow.

There is no way in hell most riders would be able to ride a horse in passage in this positioning. I'm not completely sure I understand it, but it is very different from strapping a pony's head down on a lunge line I think.....
 
Oh I don't know strong rider and a nice big double bridle with a crank nose band and the curb strongly applied?

It's is Idool and aournd Sydeny Olympics time so yet quite old.
 
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but my god, shes obviuosly doing something right as thats some serious elevation shes got going on in the passage there
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So because she's got the elevation we don't worry about the other stuff? Would this elevation be possible without the other stuff?
 
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Would this elevation be possible without the other stuff?

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This is an important question. For that horse, at that time, who knows. Anky obviously believed that using LDR would unlock this movement. Perhaps she was wrong, and perhaps the horse's passage would be better without the LDR training.

As for the curb/crank noseband....I know that I certainly couldn't put a horse in this position mechanically even with a double bridle, and keep it in passage (or even trot LOL). I watched Anky demonstrate Rollkur last year and I still don't know how she does it, but it isn't by pulling.....
 
Its important to note that those pics on the website I posted were from 2005 so Power and Paint has probably been trained using these methods/ideas for a long time...
 
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but my god, shes obviuosly doing something right as thats some serious elevation shes got going on in the passage there
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So because she's got the elevation we don't worry about the other stuff? Would this elevation be possible without the other stuff?

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No not at all, i was simply commenting on how good her passage was
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Either way, to get a horse to passage like that is obviously her way of getting and even bigger passage in the arena, as when the horse comes up in front the passage is enormous. I guess it gets the horse to work up through the wither more and over its back.
 
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Its important to note that those pics on the website I posted were from 2005 so Power and Paint has probably been trained using these methods/ideas for a long time...

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which just makes it even worse
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OK but when taken to the piaffe does it not cause the modern piaffe's we see where the front legs are lifted up much higher than the back legs and instead of sitting behind the horse is more pogoing of it's legs instead which in turn create the rolling motion?

Watching back over dessage videos the commentators no longer even mention that's a match in elevation between front and hind's is desirable. Although one modern horse that went away and worked on it is Bjorselles Briar but his results didn't improve as a result.
 
Her horses all seem relaxed and happy. I suspect the problem isn't her method, but all the other people who copy her without being her. Does that make sense?! - I mean her exact combination of leg to hand makes it a suppling exercise. In someone else's hands it is pulling the head in cruelly.
 
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Its important to note that those pics on the website I posted were from 2005 so Power and Paint has probably been trained using these methods/ideas for a long time...


which just makes it even worse

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Agreed. It would be interesting to know whether his riders have all had the same trainer(s)...
 
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