Friday Afternoon Debate

I think Anky's great
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I think its a real shame that the LDR debate is a constant black cloud that hangs over her amazing achievements. I agree with everyone who has said that LDR is useful in the correct hands but often the theories/techniques are misinterpreted by many others - I would never try to use it myself!
 
In answer to my own question at least both his last rider Mara de Vries and Angela Krooswijk were/are trained by Coby van Baalen. I believe his other previous rider was Marrigje Van Baalen, Coby van Baalen's niece.
 
If Im honest I really don't know or understand the principles behind Rollkur but from my understanding of correct training of any horse for any discipline I do feel this is a case of "strapping the horses head down" (refering to pic, not Rollkur as a technique) and find it disgusting and incredibly ignorant of the owner/handler/rider/trainer.

Sadly this is not the first time I have seen this and I can think of a certain RS that I would never have a lesson with or allow my horse to be taught by as I have seen them do the exact same thing!! They are a very well respected RS too which makes it all the more sickening and basically ruined my friends horse in one attempt at this technique - needless to say she moved him within a very short space of time!
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I will just add to Little_mare's post about his rider's/trainer's.
His name is Power and Paint and he is a German bred stallion standing at Dressuurstal Van Baalen (DVB) (www.dressuurstalvanbaalen.nl).

The trainer in the picture is indeed Coby Van Baalen no less and she was also the trainer of some great horse's like Ulft, Ferro, laurentianer etc. She was trained herself by Johann Hinnemann who claims to be old school and classical? The girl in the photo is indeed Angela Krooswijk and she has only been riding the pony for a short time. He was previously ridden at top international pony level by Mara de Vries and Marrigje Van Baalen who is Coby's Niece. He was trained by Coby from the start but has had quite a few different riders despite staying on the same yard.

I know some people would like to see him in action so here is a clip of him:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjE3J9VxjfI

I admit the pictures did shock me as I have seen the pony in the flesh and it is out of this world and very "uphill". I understand that it is a stallion so that would help explain the huge crest when added to rollkur.

I have seen these kind of reins used before by another Dutch dressage team member - Edward Gal and here is a clip of them in action, They are not quite so tight but are still doing the same job.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADdBurtkQ0o

I must say though, however much I hate the idea of rollkur and don't like seeing horses being trained in rollkur, I love the way all the dutch team horses go and they are winning so sometimes I do wonder if some of what they are doing is right. The discipline and perfection is there but I think they should tone it down a bit!!!!

p.s just to add, now I am aware of the methods that coby uses it does makes you wonder why Ferro is still reknowned for having the best piaffe/passage when suposedly rollkur-ed horses can't bring their hindquarters under as much???? Just a though.
 
I know very little about the higher levels of dressage (yes, I am Irish!) but as an artist I feel I have to comment on what I see in the picture of this pony which has really disturbed me,

It is an image of an animal in complete submission. Its head is trussed up in straps and pulled into a position that suggests complete subjugation. This is an image of a creature totally dominated by the people who are handling it and they stand coolly observing it. It is an image of a slave (remember that the vocabulary of S&M borrows heavily from the equestrian world!). The beauty, power and spirit of the horse is reduced to this tied down creature who cannot even see where he is going. Is there anything left of him mentally?

It really depresses me because this image appears in the context of high level equestrian sport which naively I would expect to celebrate the horse. This pony is very beautiful but what is being done to it here destroys its beauty. I just cannot understand why anyone would want the results offered by a horse that has been produced in this way. The means are so ugly the results will never matter.

Goodnight!
 
Well said Inmydreams, I couldnt agree more. CentrestageSHS, the youtube vid shows a very attractive pony, but not once do I see the engagement or power from behind I would like to see in an animal working in high level dressage.
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Thanks for posting it!
 
Vile picture.
I can't see how this could possibly benefit the pony in any way, plus poor devil must get a very sore neck and mouth..
Having watched the vid of him moving I don't hink he is working correctly when ridden either, his back legs don't appear to come far enough under him and he looks tight in his back.
I am shocked I must admit, this is the sort of training you sometimes see ignorant people try on DIY yards, not at this level...
Anyone fancy a trip over there to kidnap the people and tie their heads between their legs for a few days ?
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Well said Inmydreams, I couldnt agree more. CentrestageSHS, the youtube vid shows a very attractive pony, but not once do I see the engagement or power from behind I would like to see in an animal working in high level dressage.
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Thanks for posting it!

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Baaa, my thoughts exactly. I didnt look at that pony and go 'wow' which for something competing at that level I should. Its hind legs look very straight.
 
I think people actually should read the response of the trainer to these pictures, so I'm posting it here.

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In short, my reaction to the Swedish magazine comes down to the following. The fact is that the photographer took these pictures in the first minute of the lunge with Power and Point and so, they do not tell the whole story. You can see that it is the start of the lunge as the pony is either standing or walking and he is not sweating from the exercise. In the pictures, both myself and my student are looking at the pony and immediately saw that the lunge was not established correctly. We allow the pony to walk a couple of seconds and change the lunge immediately so that it is in its normal position. After that, we have been able to lunge the pony in a good way, resulting in the pony’s looseness with a beautiful posture. Unfortunately, the photographer was not interested in this and did not make pictures of that, which I regret.

It serves no purpose to lunge a horse/pony in the way shown on the relevant pictures. We always lunge in the normal way and this was a one-off incident from which my student has learned and which lasted no longer than half a minute.

The various forums and blogs on the internet do not pay attention to my reaction, but prefer to draw conclusions themselves. They have every right to do so, but the conclusions are completely wrong.

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I hope that, by way of this letter, I have clarified the situation and the background of the pictures and our way of training. To be absolutely clear: it serves no purpose to lunge in this particular way, it was a one-off incident which was immediately corrected and this is not at all our daily training mode. Everyone can see that at our stables in Brakel or read that in our books.

In the event that there are questions or remarks in relation to the above, I would like to invite the relevant person to send me an email at info@dressuurstalvanbaalen.nl instead of spreading all sorts of incorrect stories.

With kind regards,

Coby van Baalen

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Thanks for posting that Spiral - I'd hoped that might be the case.

Just to add: I know a lot of native ponies (mainly stallions) with necks that big that certainly weren't built up as a result of the use of rollkur!!!
 
I can't believe she posted that answer, because anyone who regularly lunges horses would never put the side reins on that tight even in error. If her student had done this she should have sptepped in at once.
You wouldn't allow the pony to move a step without loosening the reins off so methinks the lady protests too much from having been caught out!
 
that is just cruel.....

the poor things breathing must surely be restricted?

any type of "rolkur", regardless of whose "type" it is, is IMO also uneccessary and cruel.....
 
I think the video you posted of Edward Gal lunging shows a very different picture, the running reins are much looser than the pony's, and the horse is clearly able to express himself and use his body with much delight! I doubt the pony could even trot with his running reins as they are shown in the initial photos.

In reference to the pictures posted from the europeans a couple of years ago, the commentary next to them was interesting - whoever wrote it mentionned one trainer that gave a running commentary of every fault by pony and rider throughout the test, how encouraging must that be? I have to say all execpt two riders look much too big for their ponies, to the point that their leg positions are really suffering.

An excellent debate P_G, think you provoked a lot of discussion without it turning into a shouting match!
 
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the best piaffe/passage when suposedly rollkur-ed horses can't bring their hindquarters under as much???? Just a though.

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There's an argument that the modern piaffes/passage do not sit but are still being rewarded very highly.
 
Was going to say what alibabe did. Theres been some discussion recently about the quality of piaffe / passage in modern training methods compared with that displayed in classical methods and there was a great deal of evidence showing that horses trained in more classical ways took a considerable amount more weight onto their hind quarters.

I dont think the ability to piaffe or passage requires a lot of weight shifted to behind tbh. To do it well or correctly, yes.. but to actually perform either movement? nope..
 
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