Front Cover this wks H&H - bits for showing...

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zoeshiloh

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Is it just me, or are horses gradually being more and more tied down and tied up with stronger bits?

On the cover of this weeks H&H there is one of Robert Walker's horses, having won at Leicster County. Am I just old fashioned in saying that I like to see a show horse in a good old fashioned double bridle, with bridoon and weymouth...? The horse in question is wearing a gag as the 'bridoon' part - this to me just doesn't seem right.

I was brought up to believe that the showring was an area to show how well schooled a horse was, but now when I watch I am seeing more and more horses placed in controlling bits, rather than being correctly schooled. Is it just me?
 
Haven't seen the H&H yet but yes i do like to see horses that are in the show ring in a good old fashioned double bridle the whole idea is show horses are suposed to be mannerly!
 
It's not just you - I have been seeing more and more weird and wonderful bits in place of the bridoon part. Most show hunter ponies on the local circuit round here now have those loop ring snaffles instead of a plain bridoon.

I agree with you totally, just cinching the horse's head in with a bit is not what showing is about. It should be about well-schooled, well-mannered and polite horses going lightly and correctly.

Professionals like Robert Walker etc. should know better and will only set a bad example. That working hunter champion Cruise Control is an example - huge great long shank on the weymouth and a running martingale on both reins instead of just on the bridoon. My pony club manual is spinning in the bookshelf at that
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Professionals like Robert Walker etc. should know better

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Unfortunately how many judges would be prepared to stand up to the 'professionals' and place them down the line when showing in stronger bits.... But that is just opening a whole new can of worms....
 
but if that is the bit that the horse goes best in then who are you to say they should be in a plain double? my horse will not tollerate a double, he does not have the room in his mouth for one and the single joint of a bradoon has him chucking his head around so he is in a show pelham, ive got anouther who leans on your hands something wicked and he is in a swales sometimes.

the loop ring snaffle is actualy called the wilkie snaffle, it was designed by peter wilkinson to give leadrein and first ridden riders more control without having to haul which most first ridden riders do not have the strength for whilst still remaining a snaffle which is the mandatory bit for leadrien and first ridden.

Have you ridden those horses? untill you have then how can you say that the horses are not incredibly light in the mouth in those bits, I'd rather ride a horse that was light in the mouth in a strong bit then have to haul the horses back teeth out in a snaffle. A bit is only as harsh as the hands at the end of the reins.

Also when you can have upto 30 hunters galloping in the same ring you need breaks, you need to know that you can stop that horse when everything else is cantering.
 
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but if that is the bit that the horse goes best in then who are you to say they should be in a plain double? my horse will not tollerate a double, he does not have the room in his mouth for one and the single joint of a bradoon has him chucking his head around so he is in a show pelham, ive got anouther who leans on your hands something wicked and he is in a swales sometimes.

the loop ring snaffle is actualy called the wilkie snaffle, it was designed by peter wilkinson to give leadrein and first ridden riders more control without having to haul which most first ridden riders do not have the strength for whilst still remaining a snaffle which is the mandatory bit for leadrien and first ridden.

Have you ridden those horses? untill you have then how can you say that the horses are not incredibly light in the mouth in those bits, I'd rather ride a horse that was light in the mouth in a strong bit then have to haul the horses back teeth out in a snaffle. A bit is only as harsh as the hands at the end of the reins.

Also when you can have upto 30 hunters galloping in the same ring you need breaks, you need to know that you can stop that horse when everything else is cantering.

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Yes i do agree i would rather ride a horse in a bit that it is happy in and yes big hunters can be strong but the whole point is you prepare and produce your horse for the showring so that it will go nicely, light and mannerly in that bit!
I am not saying you should ride in a double all the time or that those horses aren't light in the bits they are ridden in. Just that i would prefere to see a horse in a traitional double in the showring, i know countless people who have worked very hard to get there horse to accept a double. Although a horse not having room in its mouth for a doubleis a different story .

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Totally agree with conniegirl - if the horse goes best in that bit, then whats the problem? There is a reason why there are so many bits available now, because horses are all different, so need to be treated as individuals!!
 
Whilst I agree with you on principle conniegirl, and I accept that it is nicer for a horse to be light in a strong bit, than constantly hauled in a 'weak' bit, the fact remains that a show horse should be well schooled enough not to require a gag in addition to a weymouth.

A hunter should demonstrate manners, so that when he is asked to stop, he does, regardless of what the rest of the field is doing. Showing classes are not simply about looking at the horse with the best conformation, or the best paces - its manners should also be equally assessed.

There has been a lot of press coverage recently, mainly in H&H about horses that look the part, but have no manners whatsoever, resulting in some nasty injuries to judges.

There is a big show producer that lives in our village, and every single one of his horses are ridden out constantly in draw reins, with young grooms who are simply told "the shorter the better" and which have no real understanding of how the reins work.

I stand by my opinion, that a show horse should be mannerly, and as such need no fancy bitwork. I think too many producers are trying to produce too many horses, leaving less time for basic schooling.
 
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Yes i do agree i would rather ride a horse in a bit that it is happy in and yes big hunters can be strong but the whole point is you prepare and produce your horse for the showring so that it will go nicely, light and mannerly in that bit!
I am not saying you should ride in a double all the time or that those horses aren't light in the bits they are ridden in. Just that i would prefere to see a horse in a traitional double in the showring, i know countless people who have worked very hard to get there horse to accept a double. Although a horse not having room in its mouth for a doubleis a different story .

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Ah but who is to say that it has to be a bog standard bradoon, The one in a swales is also sometimes in a plain double and most often in your bog standard mullen mouth pelham, we mix it round occasionaly to stop him leaning, however he cannot have your normal single jointed bradoon, we have to have a french link because he hates the action of the single joint.

Maybe the horse in question prefers poll action from his bits as opposed to pressure on the toungue or bars.

Its quite a simple method, if the horse likes poll pressure then you put it in a bit that gives poll pressure, if it prefers pressure on the bars but not on the toungue then you bit it with that in mind.

When i was in first riddens (many many moons ago) i'd have given my right arm for a wilkie snaffle, i had a pony who was gorgeous to look at but at home was ridden in a dutch gag because he prefered the action and could actualy be stopped in one, he was warmed up at shows in a dutch gag and then swapped very quickly into a snaffle, controling him in a snaffle normaly had my arms falling out and me terrified that he was going to go off on me. Adults had no problem controlling him in a snaffle so them schooling him in one had no effect. He was put in a pelham for the open classes and i had no problems controlling him in that. he realy listened to poll pressure.
 
In the IPS over here (irish equivalent of BSPS), I was in a 158 show hunter class where someone (on a horse who won small hunters at Dublin!) had a wilkie for the bradoon part of the double and the judge penalised them, put them down the line and said that those bits weren't suitable
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!! I got first and was riding my horse in his snaffle, which he goes much better in
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. Saying that the judge did say I should have 2 reins as it was an open class
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. My horse doesn't like 2 bits as he hasn't much room in his mouth and if I need to I'll put a rugby pelham in and ride him off the top rein but he still doesn't go aswell
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. I ride him very much from the leg to a soft contact and I feel I'm at a disadvantage in the IPS as I can't use spurs to really keep him up into the bridle
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. At IPS shows you see ALOT of ponies forced into an outline with strong bits and absolutely NO use of the leg and seat
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. One of the reasons why I don't do it anymore.
 
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the loop ring snaffle is actualy called the wilkie snaffle, it was designed by peter wilkinson to give leadrein and first ridden riders more control without having to haul which most first ridden riders do not have the strength for whilst still remaining a snaffle which is the mandatory bit for leadrien and first ridden.



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I meant the use of the loop ring/wilkie snaffle as a bridoon as part of a double bridle. I don't disagree with its use on its own - indeed, it can be a very useful bit for ponies - but using it in addition to a weymouth seems illogical. I'm not talking about children on a lead rein but older children on show hunter ponies.

I was also not picking faults with pelhams - they have their place in the show ring too, and indeed my Welsh Cob was shown in a ported pelham long before I introduced a double bridle. It was the bit she was ridden in at home for the most part too (she is now in a snaffle, and a plain double for showing).

I would argue that a hunter who cannot be pulled up from a gallop in the show ring without the use of a gag as a bridoon should not be in the show ring at all, but I fear I will open another can of worms with this statement.
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but if that is the bit that the horse goes best in then who are you to say they should be in a plain double?

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Quite right. I ride PF in a tom thumb and Antifaz in a dutch gag. In PF's case I prefer a stronger bit and a very light contact, in A's case, I tried all sorts of bits as he's a powerful chap and gets strong when jumping. He absolutely will not tolerate anything with a curb and in this bit I have perfect, light control

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I'd rather ride a horse that was light in the mouth in a strong bit then have to haul the horses back teeth out in a snaffle. A bit is only as harsh as the hands at the end of the reins.

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I agree
 
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I would argue that a hunter who cannot be pulled up from a gallop in the show ring without the use of a gag as a bridoon should not be in the show ring at all, but I fear I will open another can of worms with this statement.
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I completely agree with this statement - manners are a big part of a hunter class in my opinion.

As for pelhams, I have no problems with those in the showring, they have their place, especially on horses with smaller mouths.
 
The problem with these horses is that most of the time they are in the stable, fed up to the eyeballs to get them fat and in show condition and do virtually little work apart from lunging the day before the shows... I'm not saying all producers do this, but a hell of a lot do.. therefore they need brakes to stop
 
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At IPS shows you see ALOT of ponies forced into an outline with strong bits and absolutely NO use of the leg and seat
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. One of the reasons why I don't do it anymore.

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This is the objection I was trying to convey
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not trying to pick on certain bits at all, I just view the use of these bits as part of the degeneration overall in riding standards at shows. I have seen many young riders in particular with ponies whose heads are on their chest, jaw set against the bit, with their legs flapping ineffectually at their sides. Their time would be better spent on training in effective riding techniques than strapping the horse down in a stronger bit. If the horse genuinely needs a stronger bit than fine, as I said I used to ride my cob in a pelham, but they need to ride effectively otherwise the benefits of the bit are lost.
 
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Quite right. I ride PF in a tom thumb and Antifaz in a dutch gag. In PF's case I prefer a stronger bit and a very light contact, in A's case, I tried all sorts of bits as he's a powerful chap and gets strong when jumping. He absolutely will not tolerate anything with a curb and in this bit I have perfect, light control


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I am not against stronger bits generally, I hasten to add - there was a great quote from a chap that hires hunters once, who said "I prefer to send a novice rider out with a pelham so that the horse stops easily, rather than send him out with a snaffle and have the horses mouth cut to bits by an un-schooled rider".

I just think that in the showring, part of the purpose is to show that the horse has manners, is light in the mouth, and will come round and stop when ridden from the seat and leg, rather than just the hand. With horses being shown in stronger and stronger bits, it is illustrative of horses that are not properly schooled, and have simply been fastracked into looking the part in the ring.
 
blackcob a wilkie as a bradoon would give poll action when you are riding on your snaffle rein, if the horse prefers poll action then why not? it means you dont have to use your curb rein as much. or perhaps the horse hates curb action so the curb rein and the wheymouth is just there to look correct and not to be used, therefore haveing poll pressure on the snaffle rein would be very useful.

If your going to have a go at show producers for bitting thier horse in a way that the horse prefers then why on earth should you not also have a go at showjumpers, perhaps all showjumpers should be made to ride in one set bit, or dressage riders made to use only a single jointed eggbut snaffle (that would mean that any horse with a big tounge that prefered double joints would be screwed).
horses like different things, if it isnt against the rules of the discipline that you are comepteing in then I dont see the problem.
 
also the ridden judge is an unknown quantity, there are some very good riders on the judging panel, there are some absolutley awful riders on there as well, there have been cases in county shows of riders watching the first horse be ridden and everyone else loosening the curb chain to the point where it was not pulled into action (ive done it before). You are not schooling a horse for one rider, you are schooling it for many many riders who all ride differently and can be of varying standards and methods, so again i'd rather bit a horse so it would stop for a rider who doesnt use thier seat at all then have said ride judge get on and be unable to stop the horse.
 
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If your going to have a go at show producers for bitting thier horse in a way that the horse prefers then why on earth should you not also have a go at showjumpers, perhaps all showjumpers should be made to ride in one set bit, or dressage riders made to use only a single jointed eggbut snaffle (that would mean that any horse with a big tounge that prefered double joints would be screwed).
horses like different things, if it isnt against the rules of the discipline that you are comepteing in then I dont see the problem.

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As I keep saying, the competition in the show ring is partly to demonstrate manners, and therefore the use of stronger bits should not be needed.

As for other competitions - there are restrictions on dressage bits, as this competition is also to show obedience. You wouldn't see a dressage rider using a gag as a bridoon. There are hundreds of different types of bridoon, weymouth and legal snaffles for dressage, and the riders spend a long time selecting what their horse goes best in. They may well go better in a dutch gag, but if they are not allowed to use one, then the horse must be schooled to something else - that is the point of training.

As for the showring, like I said, there are hundreds of types of bridoons and snaffles, and I feel that these horses, who should show training and manners, should be able to be ridden in these bits, rather than having to resort to gags.
 
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blackcob a wilkie as a bradoon would give poll action when you are riding on your snaffle rein, if the horse prefers poll action then why not? it means you dont have to use your curb rein as much. or perhaps the horse hates curb action so the curb rein and the wheymouth is just there to look correct and not to be used, therefore haveing poll pressure on the snaffle rein would be very useful.


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The weymouth is designed to put pressure on the poll, that is the point of a curbed bit. Why put a redundant bit in the horse's mouth and use a wilkie in addition? It's utterly illogical.
 
black cob, the weymouth has poll action but it also puts pressure on the curb groove, some horses absolutely hate pressure on thier curb groove. i had one that if you put a metal curb chain on him he started rearing, he had to be ridden with a leather one that is so loose that there was very little chance of it being pulled into action no matter how much i rode on the bottom rein. I know of show ponies who are in pelhams without the curb chain at all, and that is not technically correct and yes some of them have been told off for it but their riders would prefer to ride without the curbchain then to deal with a rearing spinning bronco session should the curb be pulled into action even accidentaly.

so for a horse that likes poll pressure but hates curb pressure, a weymouth with an incredibly loose curbchain and a wilkie as a bradoon, gives you the poll pressure the horse likes from the wilkie without the need to ride on the weymouth rein so thus you are not risking bringing the chain into action. and they do this because you are supposed to be in a pelham or double for open classes so the weymouth can be there for apearance only.
 
i totally agree with you! was the 158 in question a coloured?

when i did pony workers last year, i was the only pony in a snaffle!! even in dublin, the rest were in the wilkie things and in pehlems etc. alot of the ponies that do workers are ones that are ridden by adults and then swapped for the children to ride
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although when i looked at the front cover it was - gosh, a gag as a briddoon
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i prefer to see show horses in a double bridle with normal bridoon - not a gag as well imo!!
 
Nope it was a grey, actually english bred (I heard he'd been bought for 30k sterling
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) aand everyone was gobsmacked when it won at Dublin as it dished very badly and was really stong and tense, even though it had been ridden for 3 hours in the veterinary paddock that morning
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. I know what you mean about them all in strong bits in IPS, and the crazy thing is in the rule book the bits you can use are fairly limited. For novice you have to use a snaffle but hardly anyone does and the rules are never enforced
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Agree that the kids need to learn to use their seat and legs, some of their positions are awful, but as long as the pony looks pretty they're still at the top of the line
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. You can tell that the ponies are lunged in side reins/ridden in draw reins as they have a very false outline
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. They're also so pumped full of food that the kids usually need a bit to wrench the head in so thay can control them
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