Frustrated with my youngster

TheChestnutThing

TheChestnutThing

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I have a 5 year old KWPN gelding bred in the royal purple to jump. (Concorde/Voltaire)

Because he has grown rather quickly I have spent alot of the year hacking and having dressage lessons with a dressage and showing judge and jumping very sparingly. He has always been a horse who needs LOTS of leg. Like LOTS of leg and a whip on his bum. I cannot use spurs. He ignores them.

He is incredibly scopey and shows a beautiful jump.

However he now seems to have gone backwards.

He doesn't want to move forward off my leg over fences AT ALL unless there is another horse in front of him. In which case he powers over the fences like a mad man.

When we hack he won't pass another horse yet wants to run up his bum.

It was so bad that at my last jumping show (80cm) my instructor stopped me after fence 5 as I was so exhausted from trying to get him to actually move (bear in mind I run trail and race so am very fit).

Has anyone else had similar issues?

Or do I sell him as a dressage horse as he moves impeccably and has had high marks in dressage shows.

He has been revetted and is sound in every way. Not sore. Not weak.

An aside: I have been riding for 30 years. Jumping open for 5 years.
My dressage instructor (and opening showing judge as well as dressage judge she also evented 2 star) has been getting on him and he does less for her than he does for me in terms of performance in forwardness over fences and listening to leg.
 
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He sounds like he has not learned that he goes forward on his own until he's told to do something else .
If you hack out in front on one of your normal low key hacks will he march forwards round the hack without you using the leg at all unless you need to stop and move off again ?
 
Goldenstar said:
He sounds like he has not learned that he goes forward on his own until he's told to do something else .
If you hack out in front on one of your normal low key hacks will he march forwards round the hack without you using the leg at all unless you need to stop and move off again ?
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Yes he will. Just yesterday we hacked out and he was very joggy and asked to trot and be in front whilst on the road. So I let him and my friends dropped back to enable him to move forward. Then as soon as he realises that no one is next to him he slows and slows until he is behind again.
 
If he's doing that he's not walking forward .
He thinks he sets the energy level.
He needs to learn you do it's his job to go forward at energy level you set until you change something
 
TheChestnutThing said:
He has been hunting. He attaches to a horse and then won't leave their side.

I am starting to wonder if it's a confidence issue?
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It could be but maybe more from he isn't sure on what you want and then is having to think for himself which he doesn't want this do so attaches to another horse?
 
I agree with Goldenstar, he does not stay forward of your leg if you need to use it lots.

With a horse like this I would only walk until he will stay forward at walk without you nagging. If timing is excellent that can be quite a quick thing to educate.

I would have some lessons with someone who is good at teaching the timing, such as someone who uses Andrew McLean's methods, or anyone who has success in this.

It may be a confidence issue, but IME once they learn to stay in front of the leg they gain more confidence. Using lots of leg on a backward horse does not give them confidence. Lots of leg on a forward horse may wel do, but that is a separate issue.
 
TheChestnutThing said:
Yes he will. Just yesterday we hacked out and he was very joggy and asked to trot and be in front whilst on the road. So I let him and my friends dropped back to enable him to move forward. Then as soon as he realises that no one is next to him he slows and slows until he is behind again.
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Don't let him set the pace! He walks when you ask for walk and trots when you ask him to. He won't understand the difference between being allowed to 'ask' to increase the pace and being able to stop when he feels like it. He needs to know that you are in charge, not him.
 
Sounds young and weak to me and like he lacks confidence - like he needs to go and do fun rides/group work at canter/fast speed to build a forward gear.
A horse who runs behind and won't go in front is lacking confidence and needs life experience
 
Maybe due to his age he may need a break from what he's doing - he may have become stale and needs a change in work to freshen up. My old eventer went through something similar when she was a youngster so she had break from jumping by just hacking etc and left to mature abit more. It worked wonders for her as she resumed jumping without any hiccups. Ever horse is individual with some needing more time than others, sometimes l think we expect too much too soon with young horses. l'd rather let a horse mature properly and enjoy the rewards of waiting patiently materialise it makes all the hard work worth it.
 
Agree re needing a break. He's still growing as well which takes a lot out of them so a break would be a good idea.

Have you tried long reining him out and about on his own so he learns to take confidence from you and to move forward when you say, to not have another horse (crutch) to lean on as it can make a huge difference to their attitude and life later? He's obviously already good in company (doesn't kick, bite or buck if they go in front etc.,) so I would be working him alone, get him to man up but also be prepared to take it slowly because of him still growing.
 
dizzyneddy said:
Maybe due to his age he may need a break from what he's doing - he may have become stale and needs a change in work to freshen up. My old eventer went through something similar when she was a youngster so she had break from jumping by just hacking etc and left to mature abit more. It worked wonders for her as she resumed jumping without any hiccups. Ever horse is individual with some needing more time than others, sometimes l think we expect too much too soon with young horses. l'd rather let a horse mature properly and enjoy the rewards of waiting patiently materialise it makes all the hard work worth it.
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He only just came back into jumping 2 months ago and jumps maybe once a week if that.

Before that was only hacking and dressage lessons.
 
Maesfen said:
Agree re needing a break. He's still growing as well which takes a lot out of them so a break would be a good idea.

Have you tried long reining him out and about on his own so he learns to take confidence from you and to move forward when you say, to not have another horse (crutch) to lean on as it can make a huge difference to their attitude and life later? He's obviously already good in company (doesn't kick, bite or buck if they go in front etc.,) so I would be working him alone, get him to man up but also be prepared to take it slowly because of him still growing.
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He only started work properly in September after a 3 month break where he was turned out and hacked 3 times a week.

I have in no way pushed him.

I shall trying long reining thank you. However he has a nasty temperment on the ground and does kick and bite unprovoked. Once you are on his back he is wonderful.
 
SusieT said:
Sounds young and weak to me and like he lacks confidence - like he needs to go and do fun rides/group work at canter/fast speed to build a forward gear.
A horse who runs behind and won't go in front is lacking confidence and needs life experience
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Definately gping to do more of this. Thank you.
 
If every other possible reason for his lacklustre attitude, then I would go back to transitions, transitions and more transitions. Simple transitions and direct transitions - I have found transitions within the pace very useful for my arab mare who has been quite sluggish of the leg.

Is he sluggish of the leg when doing flatwork - or is it just jumping? If so maybe he just doesn't enjoy the jumping, or doesn't have enough confidence in his ability at this time. The latter part of 2016 I was feeling quite frustrated with my arab as she was getting to be soooo sluggish to the leg - but over Christmas she seems to have turned a bit of a corner and is responding much more quickly to my leg. I do primarily hack as I have don't have a school, so I use my hacking time to train her reaction to the aids - I do lots of transitions, flexions and the starts of lateral work (she is only just learning) while we are out hacking.
 
if he 'asks' to go in front, and you let him, he is bossing you!

My instructor used to say to me, did you want to stop cantering ? I'd say, we're stopping here anyway. NO she would say, pony must stay in that pace until you ask!
Its the little things that get missed, ignored that creates bigger problems
 
my 5yr old warmblood has been similar, especially while hacking and flat work schooling, I've put it down to being little nappy, lazy and its something she doesn't really enjoy. She's fine in lessons and jumping though, and will happily take the lead hacking when she knows theres a canter spot or on the way home. Like the others said providing theres no pain or reason he won't go forward, make him! (mine has been more forward since her ulcer treatment just to add)
 
When horses play up or dont want to go forward they are trying to tell us something. They either dont understand, its too difficult or they are in pain. Have you checked everything, saddle, back, teeth?
 
TheChestnutThing said:
Yes. As stated he is not in pain at all. It's a behavioral issue.
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I'm afraid unless you've had scans / xrays / MRI / bone scan of every part of the body you can't know that for certain.

Not that I'm suggesting you go and do all of that but the fact that you are having ridden problems of this nature and your horse can be aggressive on the ground does lead me to him being in pain in some way.

I would go to the vet and ask for a full lameness work up. It took me 9 months of investigations to find out why my horse didn't want to go forwards and wasn't particularly happy about jumping with 2 different vets and 2 physios seeing no lameness on trot ups and the horse branded lazy by trainers
 
SullivanB said:
When horses play up or dont want to go forward they are trying to tell us something. They either dont understand, its too difficult or they are in pain. Have you checked everything, saddle, back, teeth?
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Wheels said:
I'm afraid unless you've had scans / xrays / MRI / bone scan of every part of the body you can't know that for certain.

Not that I'm suggesting you go and do all of that but the fact that you are having ridden problems of this nature and your horse can be aggressive on the ground does lead me to him being in pain in some way.

I would go to the vet and ask for a full lameness work up. It took me 9 months of investigations to find out why my horse didn't want to go forwards and wasn't particularly happy about jumping with 2 different vets and 2 physios seeing no lameness on trot ups and the horse branded lazy by trainers
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I had him FULLY revetted.
Full lameness. Full back and leg xrays. Bloods. I did all this because he is young and I also have him on medical aid so it wasn't going to cost me a fortune.

After that I had chrio and foradics done and dentist is due in Feb. The ONLY thing that vet suggested was full set of shoes.
 
Try treating him for EPSM/PSSM with a high vitamin E low sugars diet, with either 500ml of oil a day (build up!) or alcar (10g, quicker and more effective in my horses) and see whether it makes a difference. Unless his behaviour is ingrained, unlikely at his age, then you will see a difference in a couple of weeks if PSSM is the cause of his 'laziness'.
 
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