Frustrating XC issues. Running out of ideas.

[Fourtoomany]

So I have a fantastic 12yo Maxi mare. She does everything. Hacks confidently on her own, hunts all day, brilliant dressage, SJ up to 90, success WH etc. her fitness is 100% and she’s so much fun.

When we train XC she doesn’t put a hoof wrong. We’ve had lessons with plenty of top eventers and trained at many different places.

However, when we do a XC competition everything changes. The second she leaves the start box she is absolutely horrendous, behind the leg and spooky. She will stand off a fence and we are talking a pole on the ground, at 200 yards away. She runs out spooks and grinds to a halt. Worse case situations she plants and switches off completely.

I’ve done countless HP, HT and ODE and it’s always the same.

The only exceptios to this are when she becomes familiar with somewhere. Or if we get to do a second round in a HP. When this happens she will fly around without a second thought. Also if it’s pairs there’s never an issue.

I really am running out of ideas as to what to do and how to combat this. I’ve tried everything I can possibly think of!

Has anyone else had a horse like this and succeeded in getting around the issue?

 

[The Xmas Furry]

I shall follow this thread with interest as this is B. We've schooled 80 to 90 xc, jumped loads on fun rides, will cheerfully pop random trees, ditches and anything in the way when hacking. Always needing me to just sit and hold with a light leg on as is a keen bean.
In competition over xc fences, dragging feeling of sticky feet, even at the smallest, at venues we've schooled at within a few days of a comp.
SJ comps, is completely different. She's her usual self and takes me into a fence.

 

[MereChristmas]

Crazy thought from someone who has no idea
Showjumps on grass interspersed with WH jumps eventually interspersed with proper XC jumps?

edit sorry misread. You meant problems in competition not training.

 

[Boulty]

Have you had group lessons or private lessons? If lessons in a group then you’re unlikely to be able to recreate the situation you’re struggling with and may be better off with private, ideally where you’ve got sole hire of somewhere? May be an expensive, slow thing to fix.

The alternative may be to evaluate whether you NEED her to be able to go around XC on her own or whether doing pairs HT, hunting etc would bring you enough enjoyment.

Will admit I had one that was very unreliable jumping away from home unless out hunting. Probably would have been sortable with a lot of consistent work & lessons. Decided I’d rather pursue other things we enjoyed more together (& tbh I was too time & money poor for the investment needed)

 

[Michen]

Honestly I just think we expect too much from horses sometimes to want to do everything. Your horse isn’t enjoying it and from the sounds of it she’s had all the fundamentals put in place that she could have.

Why pursue it? It doesn’t sound like much fun for either of you or a case of just a green horse being green. She’s saying it’s not her thing.

 

[LEC]

As a last ditch attempt I would stick a nice good rider on who is very good at preempting the loss of confidence as essentially that is what it is and see if they think it will ever get better. In my mind it probably won’t as you have done a fair amount and she does everything fine. You can’t teach a pig to sing. It annoys the pig and wastes your time.

 

[The Xmas Furry]

Honestly I just think we expect too much from horses sometimes to want to do everything. Your horse isn’t enjoying it and from the sounds of it she’s had all the fundamentals put in place that she could have.

Why pursue it? It doesn’t sound like much fun for either of you or a case of just a green horse being green. She’s saying it’s not her thing.

This is exactly what I've done with B. There are plenty of other things that leave us both grinning just not solo hunter trials or ODE's, and tbh I'm not that bothered about the latter anyway

 

[ester]

So my boy was quite a lot like this, perfect schooling, and actually with me riding ok a great pairs lead. He would leave the start fine then slowly ground to a halt before the first fence. I think combo of being a bit nappy (poss to girlfriend/mums horse but we couldn;'t not take her really , not nappy in any other circumstances) and the fact that there were cars. . and there weren't usually cars. (Interestingly doing clear round at a new venue without fence judges in cars he was fine).

While I was off with a broken arm my instructor (+ advanced event rider) did a couple of hunter trials on him for me, in part so she could see the issue. She came back saying but he left the startbox fine and straight and then he just sort of died. - She did get him round the rest clear with a few extra ditches for good measure, and 2 weeks later they went much better and didn't have any stops.

But I concluded that the reality was that at that point in time there was no way I could ride him as well/strongly as she was able to and we weren't going to bother doing HT/ODE any more, we'd just do pairs. He was great at pretty much everything else so we just enjoyed all those bits.

 

[Michen]

This is exactly what I've done with B. There are plenty of other things that leave us both grinning just not solo hunter trials or ODE's, and tbh I'm not that bothered about the latter anyway

I really respect that. I just think it's sad when we expect horses to want to do it all. I'd be miserable if someone tried to make me play tennis, for example.

Love them for what they do want to do/enjoy, or if you want to do that thing more then move them on and find something that will. Obviously green, young, inexperienced horses aside!

 

[ycbm]

I think it's worth a shot at taking her hunting a few times, but you might not have an easy way to do that.


.

 

[The Xmas Furry]

I really respect that. I just think it's sad when we expect horses to want to do it all. I'd be miserable if someone tried to make me play tennis, for example.

Love them for what they do want to do/enjoy, or if you want to do that thing more then move them on and find something that will. Obviously green, young, inexperienced horses aside!

Exactly, I'm happy when she's happy. To be fair she fairly takes me into most fences, very sit and hold. Has popped round the 90 at Munsted and Tweseldown on solo and group schooling, but under competition at even 70 just downed tools.
So we sj, whp, fun ride, camp, holiday and do RC stuff etc
She could also go stressage but it's not my bag really, yes as a point of schooling but it's not my idea of fun lol.

 

[Upthecreek]

I had one that took YEARS to get his head around the fact that it was okay for cars and fence judges to be on a XC course. He would be so distracted by them that he could not focus on jumping even though he loved jumping in every other scenario. I was at the point of deciding it wasn’t worth keeping trying XC with him when something clicked and he decided it was fine after all. Never had one before or since take so long to feel comfortable and I can only assume it was just repetition that overcame the problem eventually.

 

[SusieT]

I'd get a good forward pro on her if you haven't already. Someone who is kind but firm. It sounds like a confidence issue and likely can be solved - but the current combination sounds like it has reached its limit. So either accept she won't do it, or get serious rider help, then coaching to bring you up too.

 

[Red-1]

This is how Mr Red got his Charlie-Horse LOL.

I bought him to event. He started and did OK, up to 100, but didn't really love it. I did a huuuge amount of work, mostly with XC hires, all over so they were 'new' for him. I would go early and walk the course, then warm up in the warm up field and go jump my chosen 'course.'

He never got over his fear of jumping into where he couldn't see the landing.

At the time, I was also having lessons with a trainer who was regular top 10 Badminton and Burghley. In his lessons, she predicted he would be Intermediate by the end of the season. He would pop a few intermediate fences for fun. But, these were either fences where they were island fences, so he could see the lie of the land, or fences he had worked round before so he 'knew' there was a landing.

She had a little HT course nearby so we went to show her the problem and she saw how backwards he was. The fences were simply logs and stuff, but he didn't know the course so he backed right off; she said to sell, immediately. Said she had recently backed 4 years olds who would tackle the course better than him, braver. She was astonished, as she'd only ever seen him jumping big stuff with gusto.

I tried a winter of hunting and team chasing to see if that got his blood up. He loved it as he could see that other horses had landed, ergo, there was a landing and it was safe. Next season, he was no better eventing. I mean, he always won a numnah at BE100, but he and I hated the XC together - me because he did.

Last ditch, I sent him to a pro. The pro loved him, he was jumping spectacularly, until he was at competition. The pro got better results, even got him round a novice, but it was not pleasant to watch. I followed up with a couple of BE Novice too, and hated every second.

The horse was such a gem: 100% hacking, allowed novices and small kids to learn on him etc. Surprise! Mr Rec bought him off me and learned to ride on him. I used the money from Mr Red to buy a mare who was invested in jumping. Charlie-Horse lived out his days here. Loved a bit of hunting, loved teaching kids to ride, loved Mr Red riding, did a bit of dressage and fun rides with him too, once he had taught Mr Red to ride.

I narrowed down his issue to not daring to jump where he didn't know there was a landing. I never overcame that and decided he was simply keeping us all safe and should be commended for that. It was a shame as the horse could jump pretty effortlessly when he knew it was safe, but he needed his feelings respecting, so we did. It took me a while as I really wanted to explore every avenue, but Charlie won out.

Have you found what it is that your horse doesn't like? Is it leaving others? Is it jumping in cold blood, not following? A specific type of fence, like not being able to see the landing or drops, or spreads? Ground conditions? Have you done hires in new places where the horse stays on the box while you walk the course, then do the course after a one jump warm-up? Hunting or team chasing to raise the blood? Going to country rides/parks alone and setting off hacking somewhere new alone (funnily enough, that is what BH is doing today and I believe this is the first step as I have taught a few people where the horse was stuck XC but then it turns out that the horse was sticky to go to new places hacking alone from the box, which seems like a sensible first step).

Here he is, living his best life as an old man in retirement...

 

[Fourtoomany]

Thank you for your helpful replies!
So, we have had a whole season of hunting. She’s done a couple before and it’s helped her with lots of things. (Who’d have thought that included dressage? We are looking to move up to medium soon!)

 

[Fourtoomany]

Thank you for your helpful replies!
So, we have had a whole season of hunting. She’s done a couple before and it’s helped her with lots of things. (Who’d have thought that included dressage? We are looking to move up to medium soon!)

Oops! Dropped my phone and sent too soon.

We’ve done group lessons and private lessons. She’s brilliant in both, never thinking twice about what she’s doing. Even on a course she doesn’t recognise. Just last week I had a lesson with a top eventer (who we train with at least twice a season when she’s in the area) and she was flying over everything, in front of the leg and taking me forwards. You’d never think there was an issue!

I thought initially it’s because she doesn’t like leaving other horses, but even if horses pass her on a course although she improves a bit, she’ll still be sticky.

Sometimes she’ll start well then about 5 fences in we hit this problem, then when she sees she’s coming home she’s a bit better.

She will literally spook and stand off a fence she sees absolutely she’s away. We are talking a pole on the ground. She’ll spook going through gateways into other fields! I’ve tried taking her round at all paces and encouraging her to just walk over the fence, but she won’t be with me. This is never how she behaves hacking or in training.

Like I say once she’s been around once there’s hardly an issue again.

The only thing I haven’t tried is getting someone else to ride her around to see if it makes the difference. This is something that I think I will look into.

There are a few competitions coming up that I will enquire about.

She really is fantastic in so many other ways and this is the only issue that she’s ever continued to stick with!!

 

[Fourtoomany]

Also I forgot to add, I don’t think it’s an issue with the ground. The course I did yesterday was tiny and it was just literally 3 flat fields next to one another! I really hadn’t anticipated she’d be as bad as she was.

 

[ycbm]

Well you've got a really interesting problem, that's for sure! I'm out of suggestions, I think I'd give up with that discipline after all the things you've tried.
.

 

[AmyMay]

Also I forgot to add, I don’t think it’s an issue with the ground. The course I did yesterday was tiny and it was just literally 3 flat fields next to one another! I really hadn’t anticipated she’d be as bad as she was.

I had a horse very similar to yours. At the end of the day it was me that was the issue. Training, clinics, hunting- no problem. Going it ‘alone’ and it all went pear shaped. Simply because I was solely in charge. No trainer telling me what to do, give me confidence. No hunting field to follow etc. I lacked faith and confidence in myself, therefore so did my horse.

 

[Squeak]

Have you tried a clear round or schooling over a flagged course with a start box etc? Both of those might just give you that middle ground to be able to be in a non pressure, non competitive environment that as closely mimics a competition as you can get it.

It does sound like you've tried a lot so it might not help. The only other thing I can think of, is taking her to a clear round or a HT and let her just canter around the course and not presenting at any of the fences, essentially breaking down the ask a bit more so that she only has to worry about the cars and the gateways and the terrain etc so hopefully it might be a bit less overwhelming for her and she learns that she goes forwards.

 

[oldie48]

One of our youngsters used to be very sticky to start but he was generally a bit nappy on his own, however, once started he'd fly round. As his confidence grew, he stopped napping and was a great ride XC. Another of ours, an 11 year old, was horrible to XC school in company or to take on fun rides as he hated having anything in front of him but he'd pop round a XC course on his own and needed a little encouragement at times. I learned very quickly about what he'd do and what he wouldn't do. Yours is 12 and tbh I'm not sure she'll change now. They are all so different aren't they and sometimes we just have to work with how they see the world rather than how we do?

 

[SEL]

Have you ever done a pairs class? Will she tackle a strange course with a lead?

 

[Glitter's fun]

You can’t teach a pig to sing. It annoys the pig and wastes your time.

(Sorry, @Fourtoomany , not laughing at your problem, or calling your horse a pig, just found that funny.)

 

[Fourtoomany]

We’ve done quite a bit of pairs and she’s great at it. (As long as she’s not the one in the lead!)

I’ve not tried the flagged course. I’m thinking now that actually if I spend some time hiring courses to do this over the summer then it might be worth as a final try. It’ll rack up the miles and be costly, but not as costly as being eliminated BE on fence number 2!

 

[Fourtoomany]

(Sorry, @Fourtoomany , not laughing at your problem, or calling your horse a pig, just found that funny.)

It’s ok, I was definitely thinking this about her in my head yesterday as I simultaneously patted her to let her think she was a clever girl when she finished!

 

[Bernster]

In my case, I’m starting to think the issue is me!! I’ve not tried as much or for as long as you but lots of what you said sounds familiar. Finn was the same, the first few xc fences solo he’d be backward, nappy and grind to a halt. Once we’d got going and def once we were turning for home, he’d fly round. I always found it odd as he’s a very confident horse normally and would hack solo anywhere so it seemed strange that he‘d lack confidence around a xc course of even the smallest fences (inc ones he‘d schooled around loads). I never did enough consistent work to crack it but the next phase would have been solo xc lessons, treating them like a competition and seeing if I could recreate an event and see what I needed to work on. Never really cracked on with that although I did work on forwardness and being off the leg with his jumping generally, and he flew round his last xc (too fast unbelievably!). He’s coming back int9 work after surgery so I’m not sure what the plan is for him now.

I’ve only done one solo xc comp with Bertie and I fell off at fence 2 after a stop. He’s a consistent event horse so it could well be that’s it’s me, or us being new together. I’ve yet to try again, but maybe this year…!

The issue with hunting, pairs, lessons etc is they don’t really help if it’s a napping/confidence issue going solo. It’s hard to recreate that. I’d agree having another rider could help identify if it’s you, or how big an issue it is. But that still leaves you needing to be able to do it. For that, I’d try the solo xc outings and ride like it’s a comp, ideally over flagged courses so it feels as close as possible.

But if you’ve tried loads of things and your horse just doesn’t enjoy it, I’d give that up and enjoy all the other stuff instead.

 

[RachelFerd]

I think pairs and teamchasing works where you don't just follow, but actually works towards leading - so start off tucked in behind, but pick up the lead for a bit, maybe switch back again for a few fences, then go up front again. My older horse wasn't great out cross country alone originally, but teamchasing did really help teach him to run and jump, and we would pick up the lead for parts of each course. He's totally solid now (but still occasionally tricky hacking alone - he's more confident on the XC course!)

The other thing is that the pros are very good at really putting a horse in front of their leg, and correcting very, very quickly if the horse ever drops behind. Most of us aren't good enough at doing that, and over time it becomes an evasion.

But equally, plenty of sensible advice here about not teaching pigs to sing, which is also applicable.

 

[marmalade76]

Honestly I just think we expect too much from horses sometimes to want to do everything. Your horse isn’t enjoying it and from the sounds of it she’s had all the fundamentals put in place that she could have.

Why pursue it? It doesn’t sound like much fun for either of you or a case of just a green horse being green. She’s saying it’s not her thing.

Agreed, there's already plenty your horse is happy doing and you could stick to pairs or take up team chasing if you really feel the need to compete xc.

 

[Fourtoomany]

The unfortunate thing is there’s no team chasing where I am, otherwise I’d have been on it!

 

[Katieg123]

Can you go last at an Unaff. event so you can have a school over say the first 3-5 fences until she's really confident over them?