Full Irish Draught advert - Why so light?

There are some 'proper' ID people on here that will give you a better reply (janetgeorge??) but in Britain we tend to have more traditional ID types, in Ireland they breed them lighter and more modern, mainly for a commercial reason... you don't really need draft types/ or you cant make as much out of them as the jumper/ sport horse type so breeders breed lighter. Can't blame them but it seems that the British have the more 'true' type of ID.
This horse however is neither here nor there... I own a modern ID but he is huge, has a lot of bone, but looks leggy next to the old types... it doesn't say how old he is either... ID have a tendency to go a major growth spurt at a later age. I like him though... looks like a useful horse.
 
I know nothing about Irish Draughts but confess to having a hatred of breed standards when they are used by committees to define what others should like. Our breeds are what they are because that is what people wanted, so they bred them. If they don't want them, they won't buy them. Simple. But then I'm an anarchist at heart anyway! :)
 
I noticed this ad too for the same reason, it s bizarre, but if you look at Welsh Sec D, the original type was ride and drive and possible light ploughing. They vary in size and type, but they are passported and presumably breed registered.
It happens in both horses and cattle: fifty years ago Clydesdales were cow hocked for showing, and Aberdeen Angus were "belt buckle high" ... both are now nearer to the original working / fattening type.
 
The term 'Irish Draught' has, up till recently, been a 'type' not a breed. If a horse was bred even from Registered (ie passed inspection) parents it itself had to be inspected at 3yrs+ to be registered itself.
At one time, other breeds (mainly TB) were allowed to mate with draught mares, and if the progeny passed inspection they would be registered as Irish Draught. The famous Clover Hill was by a TB. Anything that was too lightly built would not pass and would not be bred from, to keep the breed true to type.
There would also be ID to ID that did not pass inspection as they might have thrown back to their lightly built TB ancesters.
However, since the EU has now ruled that the ID is a breed not a type, anythingthat is bred from two Irish Draughts must be able to be registered and bred from, hence the breed is losing its 'type'.
(The same goes for connemaras, an over 14.2hh or a blue-eyed cream would never be passed as a connemara when they had to be inspected. Now theres lots about 15hh)
 
stormox said:
The term 'Irish Draught' has, up till recently, been a 'type' not a breed. If a horse was bred even from Registered (ie passed inspection) parents it itself had to be inspected at 3yrs+ to be registered itself.
At one time, other breeds (mainly TB) were allowed to mate with draught mares, and if the progeny passed inspection they would be registered as Irish Draught. The famous Clover Hill was by a TB. Anything that was too lightly built would not pass and would not be bred from, to keep the breed true to type.
There would also be ID to ID that did not pass inspection as they might have thrown back to their lightly built TB ancesters.
However, since the EU has now ruled that the ID is a breed not a type, anythingthat is bred from two Irish Draughts must be able to be registered and bred from, hence the breed is losing its 'type'.
(The same goes for connemaras, an over 14.2hh or a blue-eyed cream would never be passed as a connemara when they had to be inspected. Now theres lots about 15hh)
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Not quite accurate: both ID and Connemara breed societies still inspect breeding stock, but will register progeny out of registered parents. The ID has been a breed for a very long time, any TB crosses have to be noted as such on the pedigree. The Irish Draught in Ireland has been comprehensively changed/ruined by people breeding for the market (and who could blame them?). The old fashioned type is pretty much extinct with the lighter, sportier type that often resembles a rather clunky Warmblood now the norm.
 
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Cortez said:
Not quite accurate: both ID and Connemara breed societies still inspect breeding stock, but will register progeny out of registered parents. The ID has been a breed for a very long time, any TB crosses have to be noted as such on the pedigree.
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Im not quite sure how the ID inspections are working now, Cortez, would be grateful for enlightenment as the HSI now seemed to be doing the mare inspections rather than IDHS?
I know the ID has been a 'breed' since the passports came in, but that was about 8 years ago, so it is perfectly possible for IDs around today to have a fair % of TB blood, there was a period about 10 years ago where they were inspecting mares that had 75% RID and were allowed 25% other breed (TB, connemara only, def no warmblood) to pass them as draught typeand include them as Appendix Irish Draughts. Their progeny by a RID stallion could then become RID on inspection. I know because I took my mare by White Clover (half TB) out of Red Hackle mare (RID) to be inspected at Mallow.
But I do think the allowing of non-type mares to be registered (whatever grade) without inspection for type is allowing the loss of breed characteristics.
 
Cortez said:
Not quite accurate: both ID and Connemara breed societies still inspect breeding stock, but will register progeny out of registered parents. The ID has been a breed for a very long time, any TB crosses have to be noted as such on the pedigree. The Irish Draught in Ireland has been comprehensively changed/ruined by people breeding for the market (and who could blame them?). The old fashioned type is pretty much extinct with the lighter, sportier type that often resembles a rather clunky Warmblood now the norm.
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I went to see a connemara, it was just 4 yo and already 14.3+, also nervous [described as well handled] when would it have been inspected, or its sire and dam inspected?
I wanted one to ride and drive, and show in hand, but rejected it immediately on height, it nearly panicked when it saw the measuring tape!!!!.. the dam was type, but "not for sale"
 
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There were always a few slightly larger Connemaras passed, as I believe they could be inspected at 2yrs. But if a connemara was really 'not typy' it wouldnt be passed for breeding and wouldnt get a CPBS full passport.
Now, all 'ponies' bred from connemara parents are registered by the CPBS but the non-typy or big ones are grade 4.
 
HSI took over the administration of the studbook quite some time ago (cue the traditional legal actions :-), and the inspections are run by HSI under the auspices of the IDHS (they approve the inspectors) - all typically Irish and convoluted............

Passports have been in existence here for 20 years, before they were required by the EU. The studbook goes back to the early 20th century, and before that with private pedigrees. A drop of TB blood was always around; nothing new about that. The loss of type is market-driven: people will breed what other people will buy. The old type of heavier horse has gone for meat, unfortunately. There was an attempt quite a while ago to secure a "foundation" herd of old fashioned pedigree mares but there was neither the will nor the finance available.
 
Bonkers2 said:
I went to see a connemara, it was just 4 yo and already 14.3+, also nervous [described as well handled] when would it have been inspected, or its sire and dam inspected?
I wanted one to ride and drive, and show in hand, but rejected it immediately on height, it nearly panicked when it saw the measuring tape!!!!.. the dam was type, but "not for sale"
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If this was in Ireland, colts are inspected at 2 - 3 years old, mares can go for their "class 1" inspection at 3. The various "class" grades are shown on the pedigrees. The registering of over-height ponies is a relatively recent thing, as is the registration of cremello ponies (also market driven, I suspect). I don't know anything about the registering of UK bred Connemaras.
 
Yes I knew the IDHS had passports way back, but they werent required by law until 8 years ago, so mares that werent true to type didnt get RID passports. Now theyr required for ALL equines they get grade 4 I presume.
Yes change is progression- or is it? Draughts are getting much taller, and lighter, 17hh ones are common now, while a good mare used to be 15.3hh-16.1hh.
But breeders have to move with the market, and if taller, lighter, 'sportier' models are what the buyers want, that is what will be bred. I cant help but feel though that in years to come people will be saying 'why did we let the good old-fashioned Irish Draught die out? What happened to the 14hh Connemara childs pony??
 
I am interested in ISH breeding but am no expert. However, with this particular horse, it is worth noting he is only 6. Every full ID or ID x I have ever seen keeps growing till it is 8 and becomes considerably heavier from 6-8. A friend has a stunning 3/4 ID mare out of Grange Bouncer. As a 5 year she looked very TB and light. At 7, her owner has nicknamed her "the war horse" as the mare has broadened a lot!
 
Here are some of the "full Irish Draught" stallions that reputedly have TB (or even Connemara pony!) close up in their pedigree (and these are just off the top of my head):

King of Diamonds
Clover Hill
Ginger Dick
Cruising
Pride of Shaunlara
et al.

It is undoubtedly true that the more old fashioned type of Irish Draught is now more likely to be found in the UK
 
I like him, if you look at the pictures of him jumping towards the camera you can see he has substance, short cannon bones and is well put together.

He would not be out of place in weight classes and would do anything asked of him as can be seen in the pictures. He would make a Masters horse.

Many breeds have been changed, not necessarily for the better over the years. Look at the modern Shires now, nothing like the traditional Shire.
 
Cortez said:
Here are some of the "full Irish Draught" stallions that reputedly have TB (or even Connemara pony!) close up in their pedigree (and these are just off the top of my head):

King of Diamonds
Clover Hill
Ginger Dick
Cruising
Pride of Shaunlara
et al.

It is undoubtedly true that the more old fashioned type of Irish Draught is now more likely to be found in the UK
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Cruising was an ISH stallion, he was not an Irish draught stallion. His dam Mullacrew was three quarters TB.
 
Cortez said:
Not quite accurate: both ID and Connemara breed societies still inspect breeding stock, but will register progeny out of registered parents. The ID has been a breed for a very long time, any TB crosses have to be noted as such on the pedigree. The Irish Draught in Ireland has been comprehensively changed/ruined by people breeding for the market (and who could blame them?). The old fashioned type is pretty much extinct with the lighter, sportier type that often resembles a rather clunky Warmblood now the norm.
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I have an Irish bred Irish type who is I suppose the 'improved ' traditional type he's by Gortlee Ruler .
That type just make great gents hunters I think it's the job they excell at .
I like the horse in the ad apart from the first shot , he looks like he would make a fun hunter perhaps one MrGS and I could share ( well I can dream they always end up to wide for me ). In the video and in the other admittedly grainy pictures the horse does look more ID .
The horse in the first picture appears to have the fault that many ID's have in that his forearm is angled back , that's a draught horse thing and while it not the best for jumping however ID's manage jumping perfectly well IME .
I would view him if we were looking .
It's the modern very tall ID's that do nothing for me they look like walking vets bills .
 
We held an id breed inspection at our yard over 20 years ago. No idea why people don't think Ids are a breed we also had the first id stallion covering in Yorkshire originating from Ireland. Amused by where people get their information from if it's not on the Internet etc etc.
 
Here's the REAL traditional Irish Draught - 17hh, 10" of bone and an a*se like a cook!

Raj.jpg
 
Kaylum said:
We held an id breed inspection at our yard over 20 years ago. No idea why people don't think Ids are a breed we also had the first id stallion covering in Yorkshire originating from Ireland. Amused by where people get their information from if it's not on the Internet etc etc.
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That was exactly the idea of inspections- to make sure all Registered Irish Draughts were true to type.... and surprisingly, there are other ways to get information apart from the internet- like from the IDHS society!!!
 
Very interesting everyone, thanks. What I don't understand about the 'we breed what the market wants to buy' argument is that in my youth ID crosses were bred to meet the differing weight needs of the market, with the 7/8 eventers, the 3/4 the all rounder and the 1/2. the good weight carrying hunter that could still gallop. If the heavy draughts are disappearing, how do you breed a non feathered heavyweight these days?
 
JanetGeorge said:
Here's the REAL traditional Irish Draught - 17hh, 10" of bone and an a*se like a cook!

Raj.jpg
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He is so gorgeous. ..

As an aside though, I've watched the ID stallion class and the mares classes heaps of time at the RDS and those shown are definitely the traditional HW type, so perhaps there is a breed within a breed...

Fiona
 
I would dispute the statement that the old fashioned 4 square stamp is no longer being bred. I have just bought a 5 yr old by Huntingfield Rebel who is a very traditional stamp, with 10" bone, but light on his feet, with a great jump.

I wouldn't look at most English bred IDs - the ones I've seen are just clumpy with no quality (with apologies to Janet!)

hr3_zpsvaose7ni.jpeg


hr8_zpsd2ov253g.jpeg
 
spacefaer said:
I

I wouldn't look at most English bred IDs - the ones I've seen are just clumpy with no quality (with apologies to Janet!)
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Bit of a silly thing to say really. There are clumpy Irish Draughts lacking quality in the UK - but where do you think they came from?? Yep - from Ireland. Half the stallions standing here were bred in Ireland - and most of the mares will have Irish parents.

Raj moved beautifully - a thought not shared by a very stupid lorry driver who drove up his a*se. Raj did a FABULOUS capriole - his hind feet getting to 12 inches from the lorry's windscreen. That stopped him!
 
spacefaer said:
I would dispute the statement that the old fashioned 4 square stamp is no longer being bred. I have just bought a 5 yr old by Huntingfield Rebel who is a very traditional stamp, with 10" bone, but light on his feet, with a great jump.

I wouldn't look at most English bred IDs - the ones I've seen are just clumpy with no quality (with apologies to Janet!)

hr3_zpsvaose7ni.jpeg


hr8_zpsd2ov253g.jpeg
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Lovely. Half brother to my 5yo bu the same sire, but yours looks truer to type and likely to be a big boy! Am wondering if mine will fill out over the next few years, will be interesting to see. But am hoping not by much as I'm only 5'4!
 
JanetGeorge said:
At 5 - they rarely get much taller (maybe an inch) but they fill out and beef up!
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They certainly do ,the one I got in the December of his five yo year from a dealer he came over in the May just backed and looked tall ( he's not at 16.2) and gangly however he had Lots of bone huge hocks and knees he's now seven and people who have not seen him for a while think I have got another one .
He's literally filled out to match his bone and looks better for it , the bad thing is after having an easy time since he arrived with his diet I will now have to start watching him carefully .
 
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