Full Livery a dying trade? Livery musings

[asterid]

Musings.....

With the financial climate as it is, do you think full livery is dying out in favour of DIY to save money?

What makes people have full livery?

Even in financial hardship, do people still have full livery?

What do you expect for you full livery?

What would you expect to pay for the following:

Indoor 25x45
Outdoor 20x40
Small XC course
Off road Hacking with a small beach
Large airy stables
All year turnout on sandy soil (less mud!)

What would you expect to pay without an indoor or XC course?

Would you consider a livery that was a sort of part assisted whereby for 7 days a week the yard turns out or brings in and rugs etc and the owner does the other end of the day and mucks out etc. What would you pay for that.

Having considerations of running a yard, not for profit, but to pay to keep mine. Would rent it and have been doing my homework and can see all the pitfalls and expenditure, so just musings really.

 

[Gleeful Imp]

I think the full livery market is shrinking, but not dying. There are a number of clients (I'm one) who couldn't have horses without full livery, and we rely on an excellent standard of care above all else really.

The facilities you offer are very attractive, if you're going to pay a proper whack for livery it's good to be able to have decent facilities.

Price depends on where you are. I pay £105 a week for a very good outdoor, country lane hacking, access to some off road in summer, limited turn out in winter. I'm based in the north west, and if had access to those facilities, would pay more. Would expect to pay probably £125 ish for that, as long as surfaces were good.

Hope that helps! Where are you based? What sort of competition for similar yards is there around you? If your facilities are rare, you may be able to command a premium.

 

[millitiger]

I don't think it is dying out but I do think people are getting a lot more picky about what they accept from a yard.

I've just been looking for a new yard for when Vinnie comes home from boarding school.
I'm in quite a horsey area of the country with plenty of grassland, hunting, eventing etc so you would think there would be a plethora of good yards.

I found it nigh on impossible to find a yard that could supply all year grazing with safe fencing, a floodlit school with a decent surface and some jumps and reasonable hacking (e.g. not a dual carriageway!).
I was looking for part (hay/feed/bedding and turn out/bring in) or full (including mucking out) and I'm not stingy but could only come up with 3 yards in a 20 mile radius of my house that I would consider looking at and that was without a set budget.

Thankfully I seem to have found a lovely yard, so fingers crossed

Around here (West Mids), part livery as you suggest with hay/straw/basic feed included, would be around £70-80/week.
Full livery (but not exercised) would be around £100-110/week.

Perhaps you could add another £30-40/month for the indoor if it included lights, but I'm not sure what prices are like around you?
Perhaps ring around some other yards in the area and see if they have vacancies and what they offer in their packages and see if your figures stack up?

 

[asterid]

Am based way down central South!

The completion locally is not as good. Only a handful have outdoor schools and none have an indoor, expect one which is very small.

The trouble is, it is seeing if people would pay full livery. I know of a couple of nice yards set up in the last 4 years that have waiting lists, but really struggle to get the Full liveries.

There are decent completion venues nearby for BD and BS, which is an added attraction, but am starting to think all I would get is DIY or DIY assisted and that really wouldn't be ideal. The idea is to run a professional yard for the discerning customer, but am not sure if I could get those people.

 

[Shutterbug]

In the last few years I have gone from full livery to pure DIY - initially I was full livery because my kids were younger and I worked. Five years ago I was paying £65 a week for full livery, including stable, t/o, bring in for farrier/dentist, hay and feed, indoor and outdoor schools and a xc field.

That same yard for the same facilities is now £105 per week - that's a 12% increase on full livery every year for 5 years - quite a lot really when you consider the average salary increase in the same time period is around 3%. DIY and grass liveries have not risen to the same extent but DIY is £48 a week and grass is £40 a week - priced to put people off these options I would imagine. I miss the place terribly and still go there for lessons every week on their horses and the RI there comes to my yard weekly to teach me on my own horse but I simply cannot afford to keep 2 horses there when my livery for 2 horses on DIY is only £216 a month.

When I initially left full livery, I went DIY at a yard that offered assisted and this was a great way to ease myself into DIY as I had never done it before- YO did full livery days at £5 a time but it proved to be far too convenient when I couldn't be bothered or was too tired to do my own stables although I see the attraction for people who might have slightly busier times. I also work 2 13 hour shifts each week so cant get to the yard so that was a tenner on top of £30 a week for one horse. So I took a deep breath and jumped into pure DIY, luckily I am on a yard with just 2 other liveries and we have 7 horses between us - we help each other out, take turns at t/o and bring in and have each others backs - we are friends anyway so that helps. I now get up at 6am and do my horses before I start my 13 hour shifts - tiring but I love doing it all myself now although I will admit sometimes I do miss that assisted livery option.

Is it possible for you to provide a pure DIY service with a list of "add-ons" - t/o, bring in, rug changes, and offer a full livery day service?

 

[Oscar]

I think assisted DIY or part livery mon-fri, DIY @weekends is becoming popular. People want more control and to save costs.

Having been a ex full livery client I've been put off for life more from the care side than the financial!

 

[skint1]

Would you be better off maybe offering part or assisted diy livery alongside full livery?

 

[Daytona]

I would only have my horse on full livery.

 

[pinklilly]

Mines on assisted DIY which once I pay for services there's not a great deal of difference in the price however I prefer to do my own. There's a few fulls on my yard but most are on assisted DIY throughout winter. There's a waiting list at yard, demand is high around here.

 

[TarrSteps]

I suspect the increasing difficulty for many yards is, if they are in an area to attract people who need and can afford full livery - commuting distance to a major centre with a relatively healthy economy - then it's increasingly prohibitively expensive to offer it! One of the largest full livery yards near me has, in the past few years, gone from Full only, to a mix of Part and Full to now only Part as a base model and a menu of extras. To make up the equivalent of Full with extras would now cost substantially more than their previous Full price. In addition, they are looking to diversify/increase revenue streams by renting out their facilities, holding clinics and shows etc. Obviously this has both benefits and costs to their liveries but the reality of the situation is their previous business model was unsustainable.

There are other places that survive by targeting the very top end, running more like top end North American barns, with in house training from a "name" trainer, top facilities, absolute full sparkly service 24/7. Priced accordingly. They are targeted at the "recession proof 1%" but this also, obviously, comes with responsibilities!

I think to some extent you have to decide on your course and who your target market is going to be. Are there many offering the same in your area? Do local income levels, commuter patters etc support the number of spaces you would have to offer? Could you arrange a rental agreement that would allow you the profit margin you need? If you are maintaining the property as well as running the yard, that adds up to some significant outgoings to be factored in.

 

[teapot]

Local RS near to me charge £600 a month for their full livery. Use of two floodlit arenas, good hacking (small amount of road work to South Downs), 24/7 turnout, jumps on grass, indoor school being built. Fee apparently includes 'absolutely everything'.

That's Sussex

 

[horsehappy]

I'm in the process of opening a new yard and im planning on doing full and part livery. Part includes all am duties and muck out (bed left up) and hay. £60pw . full includes all daily duties hay and a bale of bedding £85pw ive also got a small indoor and jumping paddock with dressage boards. I did a lot of research and it seems very reasonable in my area. I'm only having 10 stables so want its unique selling point to be facillities without being a large comp yard. Do some ringing round yards in your area to get comparisons and then work out what your costing are per horse and how much profit you want to be worth your time!

 

[wench]

Go in NL (or what ever its called these days), and you will get lynched if you even contemplate having your horse on full livery!

 

[Fuzzypuff]

It depends what you call full and part livery as this seems to differ regionally. Where I am (within M25) full includes grooming and riding, part includes t/o, b/i, mucking out, feeds, hay, bedding. Assisted is usually a payg type arrangement or includes the t/o and b/i but not mucking out.

I kept my old horse on assisted DIY for 8 years, it was a DIY yard where a couple of people offered services and also people helped each other out, so I had a combination of friend turning out and paying someone else and I would muck out in the evenings. It still cost quite a lot in winter when you added on the services, but in summer they could live out 24/7 so you saved a bit.

New dobbin is on part livery. Am very lucky as it's exceptionally cheap at under £400pcm. I did start off with him on DIY assisted elsewhere, but it was actually more economical to put him on livery somewhere else because he's a big horse and gets through a lot of hay. Part livery in our area varies from £400-800pcm depending on the yard and facilities.

 

[kit279]

I think psychologically that there is a mentality with full livery that it is all inclusive 'high-end' prices and therefore there is a feeling that since it is such a lot of money, that everything has to be 'just so'. Realistically, the cost of maintaining a yard and grazing to a really high spec is very expensive and the price of absolutely everything has gone up astronomically. For example, the cost of haylage, bedding, feed and fertiliser, not to mention the cost of post and rail fencing (spares, repairs etc) has really shot up. I've got my own yard but keeping it to a high spec and keeping horses has been pretty expensive. If you have to additionally make a living from it, then I struggle to see how it's affordable for the yard owner and I can also see that the costs incurred mean that the price of full livery is pretty prohibitive too. I also can't see the upwards trend reversing in terms of the basic costs of keeping horses and increasingly I think horses will become relatively unaffordable for the average person...

 

[criso]

I don't think it's dying out, whenever I have looked for yards or been helping friends, I as a full livery have a far wider choice than friends on diy.
Prices vary from about £400 for 5 day part to £1000 for the sort of high end yard tarrsteps mention.

The places with the best reputations still have waiting lists so I think if you get it right you will fill the boxes.

It's not always the places with the best facilities on paper but ones that get the basics right, high standard of care and a big thing for me is an adequate hay and bed allowance. It's very annoying to pay for full and then be charged another £100 monthly.

Another thing is that sometimes people move in groups, so a few yards I know that are essentially full offer a limited handful of diy boxes. That allows people to stay with their friends.

 

[Tinks81]

I think a no frills Full livery and part livery (7 day and 5 day) works really well

offer basic chaff and nuts
basic bedding (wood pellets work well)
then hay
if 5 day still turn out on weekends

you can charge around £430 for 7 day and £390 for 5 day

if they want to buy shavings they do so but on top and if they want extra feed they also buy this on top

 

[Jingleballs]

I wouldn't say it's a dying trade.

My yard is primarily full livery and is full to the gunnels just now!

I've only just moved from assisted DIY to full livery - had been on assisted DIY for 5 years but was recently promoted in work and felt that I now needed (and could afford) the cost of full livery.

Personally, I love it but I do recognise that if circumstances changed, that would be one of the first things I'd downgrade.

 

[TarrSteps]

I'm also interested in how people define the terms. To me, 'Full' means literally everything - care, grooming every day, exercise, holding for vet and farrier, etc. So essentially the owner only has to ride, if and when they can.

 

[Maesfen]

I'm also interested in how people define the terms. To me, 'Full' means literally everything - care, grooming every day, exercise, holding for vet and farrier, etc. So essentially the owner only has to ride, if and when they can.

When I was working in livery yards, the only option was full livery; these were primarily hunter and pointer yards with the odd breaker thrown in. If you wanted to exercise that was fine but you didn't get a reduction in rates.
Absolutely everything was done for the horse including delivering to meets although some owners liked to use their own transport. They literally had to just arrive and collect then deliver back at night knowing their horse was fully taken care of. The only extras on their bill (in fact they'd be billed direct) would be vet and farrier, everything else was included in the cost unless it was something like a saddlery/rug repair but all feed, hay (no haylage then!) bedding, exercise, grooming, clipping, plaiting/preparation for meets and shows, tack cleaning etc; all included - which to me is full livery; anything else is part livery.
I have two liveries here now; everything is included except for vet; I also include worming and the farrier (only trims as youngstock/broodmare) in the bill as it's a lot easier to have a regular set amount, not have to add on extras each month and wouldn't dream of charging someone for holding their horse for either vet or farrier as it is all part and parcel of the job to me.

 

[almostthere]

Not dying at all - couldn't keep horses without it!
I agree with TS that it does depend on definitions, so it is important to be clear about that when you set up OP. I think I am based in TS' area (Surrey?) (and I think I know the yard that you are referring to TS as being unsustainable but I do think in that particular case the economic set up there is quite "unique") and livery charges generally in that area are very high presumably due, at least in part, to the proximity to London.
I have horses with a comp rider on comp livery and everything to do with their day to day care is included and those horses are ridden 5/6 days a week by comp rider. Until recently I also had horses that I rode/competed myself at a separate livery yard which included everything but the exercise so was a kind of Part Plus. I was/am paying around £200 a week!! Also - sounds obvious but worth noting - good facilities may attract people but it is the standard of care that willl keep them. Just because a yard has great facilities and charges a lot it doesn't necessarily provide a commensurate standard of care. Ie you don't always get what you pay for....

 

[xspiralx]

What makes people have full livery?

Even in financial hardship, do people still have full livery?

What do you expect for you full livery?



To answer the above questions, I have just moved my horse to Part (or Full - depending on your definition) livery.

I kept him for 6 months on what was essentially Assisted DIY, but it became unsustainable for me with my job. I work 9-5 in theory, but often struggle to leave much before 7pm or even later, and regularly have to work evenings and weekends. I was basically exhausting myself trying to do my horse twice a day as well, was having to rely increasingly on help from others at the yard (which meant I felt guilty all the time!) and was spending all my time doing jobs instead of spending any quality time with him.

It's a bit of a strain financially but it is a huge relief to me to know that he is looked after and I don't have to worry if I have to work late or over the weekend. And the time I spend with him is better time - he is happier and his ground manners have improved tenfold in the last couple of weeks.

The livery at my yard includes everything except exercising. T/O, bring in, muck out, feed, hay, bedding, holding for vet, farrier, feet picked out daily. And if I'm not able to make it down then he will be groomed as well.

That was a selling point to me, as he is a young horse who benefits from having time spent with him on the ground and so on the rare occasion I can't make it down, I know he will have interaction and care beyond just being turned out and brought in.

 

[ihatework]

Also - sounds obvious but worth noting - good facilities may attract people but it is the standard of care that willl keep them. Just because a yard has great facilities and charges a lot it doesn't necessarily provide a commensurate standard of care. Ie you don't always get what you pay for....

This for me is the crux of the matter.
Offer a really high standard of care with the flexibility/bespoke arrangements per horse and you will get and keep full liveries who are prepared to pay.

 

[criso]

I'm also interested in how people define the terms. To me, 'Full' means literally everything - care, grooming every day, exercise, holding for vet and farrier, etc. So essentially the owner only has to ride, if and when they can.

I agree with you with part livery offering the above minus exercise and grooming.
However these terms get used quite loosely so for this discussion I took it to mean not DIY.

 

[Lark]

I always find these threads very interesting as Full livery (well part in UK terms) is pretty much the default in Ireland. DIY is seems to be 10 times more popular in the UK.
For us Full livery is stable, bedding, all hard feed, adlib haylage, individual and group all year turn-out, walker and facilities. Everything except for riding which would normally be termed as schooling livery.

Right now there seems to be 2 market sectors. High volume, low cost, basic service level or low volume, higher cost and high service level.

Not sure how the high volume guys are doing right now but we are in the second slot with a small private livery yard and are full.
Most of our clients are from within the horse sector itself from a veterinary/therapy side (which has its benefits).
The standard of care is the most important thing to these clients.
The facilities are a very close second, well designed ventilated stables, very good arena surfaces, large walker etc basically anything that will aid not hinder the horses health.
All year turnout is also a huge factor that is still very hard to get but is part of our contract to provide.
We would also host a number of inhouse clinics and provide access to top quality trainers which owners in a competitive yard really appreciate.

I guess it is a case of finding your niche and building on it to the best of your ability.
Research into what is provided in the surrounding areas will be your first port of call.
Ring around other yards and advertise what you plan to offer to get an indication of what market is out there.

 

[wench]

I think the equestrian market is somewhat more subtly different in Ireland than it is in the UK

 

[TarrSteps]

The situation is similar in North America, Lark. With the exception of people who have significant land, most horses live in something along the scale you describe. Near a major centre a basic boarding stable would cost $600 ish for basic care, based in a top show barn, you could easily pay $2k.

 

[Lark]

I think the equestrian market is somewhat more subtly different in Ireland than it is in the UK

Interesting what differences would you see?

Also i would say that the continent is very different again and that there is a much stronger demand for Everything in Livery including riding, grooming, tack cleaning etc.

 

[Lark]

The situation is similar in North America, Lark. With the exception of people who have significant land, most horses live in something along the scale you describe. Near a major centre a basic boarding stable would cost $600 ish for basic care, based in a top show barn, you could easily pay $2k.

Hmmh I think there is more money to be made in the states

The large yards here (maybe 70-80 boxes) are typically ex racing yards which also means very limited land. They are charging around €80 per week.
Very cheap and hopefully cheerful. I guess if people are realistic as to what they will actually get for the price it works out fine.

I would hazard a guess that the top rate is around €150-160 per week for the most expensive yards for full livery (part/without riding)

During the celtic tiger years it was €200 per week in certain yards.

 

[TarrSteps]

It's very regional and situational in the US. Because of the huge income disparities there is a group of people who have more money than they know what to do with but, while this may be a large group by UK standards it is tiny in the context of the population. Then there is a relatively large middle group but they are unlikely to have more than one horse and they are far from recession proof. What simply does not exist in most suburban areas is any option for lower income streams. I know people here who keep a horse, or even multiple horses, on jobs not far above minimum wage. This would not be feasible in NA. It is significantly cheaper to have and compete a horse here, so there are more people doing it.

I'm a bit bemused at the number of professionals here who now suddenly see the US as an untapped resource full of unexploited rich people begging for 'proper' horses/instruction/care. Wait 'till the shine wears off and they rock up against the natives in the battle for the big payers.