Full Livery - Unrealistic Expectations?

[justine1559]

Hi, I’m hoping for some advice re livery. I recently moved yards to what I thought was going to be the perfect place – 4* event rider based there, amazing facilities etc. However the reality is somewhat different and I’m wondering if my expectations are unrealistic. The stables are nice and big but there’s no rubber matting and it’s not deep litter. There’s nowhere to tie the horses up outside of their stables to groom so currently they seem to get a quick flick off when the grooms muck out in the afternoon. Rugs aren’t changed in the morning unless the horses are ridden. I’m also having to really push for daily turnout despite my mentioning it as a necessity when I viewed the yard. I’ve also not been able to discuss different things like which boots she should have on for schooling, turnout etc, how much hay I’d like her to have which rugs in the day/night etc. On top of that when I moved the head groom told me that there was nowhere for me to store anything but I could leave her turnout rug in the manger so currently I’ve left just one saddle and bridle on the saddle horse and a pair of boots and the turnout rug but given its colder this week I feel awful that she doesn’t have a warmer stable rug with her. The event rider is really nice but doesn’t seem involved in the day to day running of the liveries and the grooms seem completely disinterested in the livery yard and more interested in the team of event horses. My situation is that I work full time so only get down to ride once or twice after work in the week and then I’m there all weekend. So my question is am I just being too picky? If not, how can I get this to work?

 

[9tails]

You need to find a yard that will cater for your needs. I assume you're paying a fair bit for this? If you're not getting daily turnout now, I doubt you'll get any when winter actually arrives.

 

[Perfect-Piaffe]

I don't think your being unrealistic at all - I would be very unhappy with the services/storage facilities etc. I can't imagine it's cheap either so i would definitely expect some input into the horses care and I'd especially expect interest from the groom! When I moved to my current yard I was told everything before hand and discussed what I wanted and what they offered etc, we've been there 18 months now and its all as I thought it would be. I would try talking with the rider or whoever you saw prior to moving there, is there a yard manager too? If nothing can be changed I would consider looking elsewhere. The turnout would concern me too - its not real winter yet! Hope it works out for you!

 

[Nicnac]

Is the rider responsible for the running of the yard? If so all horses should be treated as theirs are whether 4* or kid's pony.

I would speak to whoever is responsible outlining my concerns - do you have a contract? Sounds a bit pants tbh and assume you are paying handsomely for the privilege of worrying about your horses the days you don't go!

 

[ihatework]

Over the years, what I have found is that yards are what they are.
So you need to really look around with open eyes and take in their way of doing things because they ain't going to change just because you ask them too.
I do think these big competition hybrid type yards can be tricky for the more particular of livery customers (of which I would be one!)
You possibly just need to find somewhere more geared up for bespoke livery service, and be prepared to pay for it.

 

[Leo Walker]

Move, it wont get any better! The one and only time I had mine on full livery it was similar in that they refused any input from me regarding his management, almost never turned him out and made me feel like I was just there as they were doing me a favour and letting me ride. I stayed thinking it would get better, but it just got worse and worse. My horse came away physically knackered and it took me 4 months to get him right again

 

[ElectricChampagne]

I wouldn't be happy either, particularly on full livery, which is pricey enough already.

Not having somewhere to store tack is a bit much and the lack of turnout would drive me potty, my fella would lose the plot not getting out.


There's nothing worse than staying somewhere you're not happy and eventually even the smallest things will start getting to you and you'll notice more and more. Winter is tough enough already with out added worries.

I'd try find something else if you can.

 

[ljohnsonsj]

It won't change and pro yards with liveries always seem to favour the professional horses and see the liveries as more of a chore.

 

[be positive]

It doesn't sound as if you and your horse are going to be a priority, the most amazing facilities are no use if your horse is not getting cared for as you want, the lack of mats, tie up would not bother me as long as the beds are good, nor would discussions on hay as I would expect them to feed a horse properly, to rug and boot appropriately etc. but the lack of communication and turnout would be a major sticking point.

I don't think things will change for the better, you want full care and to be a valued client not feel like your horse is going to be put to the back of their priorities, either a serious chat with the YO/ YM is required or you need to look elsewhere.

 

[j1ffy]

It sounds like the 4* rider is taking liveries to supplement their own costs without having considered how to provide the service (or even what that service should be). Running a livery yard well requires a clear idea of, and ideally a passion for, customer service - just because this is the horse world it doesn't mean that the paying customer should be ignored.

I'd be looking for a new yard asap.

ETA - I'm on part livery (everything except exercise) and the beds are pristine, my horses are always well-groomed (we also don't have external tie-up areas, they are groomed in their stables) and rugs are changed as needed. I don't always get consulted on the amount of hay but I am always consulted on feed. I have space for my tack, a storage area for other stuff and space in the barn for spare rugs etc. The YO is a dressage and event rider but I don't feel that we are looked down upon vs. her own horses - quite the opposite! Recently a YM has taken over the day to day care of the horses and the care and communication is still excellent. I feel like a valued customer, not like an inconvenience, and when you are paying the equivalent of a mortgage each month that's how it should be! The yard is average price for the area given the facilities, it's not one of those very smart £1000 a month places.

 

[PorkChop]

Agree with everyone elses comments!

Full livery does differ hugely, both in management and price.

 

[dressage_diva]

Did you view the yard and chat to the professional before moving in? I've been based at a number of yards on full livery over the years, both "livery yards" and professional competition yards that take liveries. I've always found that the only way to work out if the yard is for you is to have a frank chat with the manager/owner before moving in - full livery means different things to different people! I would always ask about how/when horses are groomed, how much turnout my horse will get at different times of the year, where rugs are stored etc. I don't think you can assume that all full livery yards will do daily turnout - it depends on the facilities and soil etc. Similarly most full livery yards I have been at don't have rubber matting - were you told you would get it when you originally spoke to manager? Do other horses have it and if so have you asked if you can? Personally I'd never expect my horse to be on deep litter when on FL - I'd expect mucking out several times a day!

Have you spoken to the 4* rider about your concerns?

ETS: Lack of places to tie up wouldn't bother me either - many pro yards don't tie up horses outside to avoid accidents. Out of interest is this the first time you have liveried at a pro yard? I've generally found that the way they do things is different to formal livery yards, but that doesn't necessarily mean they don't look after the horses well. I've also found that the pros are usually used to making their own decisions on hay/boots etc - they're experts and will inherently know how to boot up a horse appropriately for the work/turnout and similarly with hay (often they have nutritionists who visit regularly who help advise). Saying that, I've always found that if I have approached them and asked them to do it a specific way they have accommodated me.

 

[Kylara]

Outside tie ups are more a diy thing I think. Boots etc probably over thinking as the pro rider will boot appropriately to what they think. For example I put overreach boots on everything as I work hard on engagement and overtrack and can't be dealing with the hassle of OR injuries. Some also get turned out with OR boots. Turnout boots are possibly more difficult as the yard may not like booting due to tendon problems but if necessary insist or make a white board up with boots for what etc and pop on his door.

I'd suggest chatting to YM or pro rider about it all. I wouldn't do deep litter unless specifically asked for by a livery. Everything is mucked and skipped out everyday!

 

[Fidgety]

It won't change and pro yards with liveries always seem to favour the professional horses and see the liveries as more of a chore.

It sounds like the 4* rider is taking liveries to supplement their own costs without having considered how to provide the service (or even what that service should be). Running a livery yard well requires a clear idea of, and ideally a passion for, customer service - just because this is the horse world it doesn't mean that the paying customer should be ignored.

I'd be looking for a new yard asap.

This has been my (two) experience(s) of being at pro yards. The only thing the yards were interested in were how many 'extras' they could charge for on top of all ready expensive full livery. That coupled with the hacking being not as described and having to work around the pro rider insisting on lone access to the indoor school when prospective purchasers were viewing horses, the local 'up and coming' having priority on the outdoor school for his lessons because he'd payed more for his rental, plus turnout being prioritised from YO, yard staff, favoured liveries down to the plebs like me, it was a pretty miserable 3 months. As said above, for your sanity, move

 

[dressage_diva]

This has been my (two) experience(s) of being at pro yards. The only thing the yards were interested in were how many 'extras' they could charge for on top of all ready expensive full livery. That coupled with the hacking being not as described and having to work around the pro rider insisting on lone access to the indoor school when prospective purchasers were viewing horses, the local 'up and coming' having priority on the outdoor school for his lessons because he'd payed more for his rental, plus turnout being prioritised from YO, yard staff, favoured liveries down to the plebs like me, it was a pretty miserable 3 months. As said above, for your sanity, move

My experience has been completely the opposite with several pro yards, so please don't paint all pro yards with the same brush. I've had one of my horses on full livery for 17years and I've liveried with several pros and they've all been excellent - but I did my research first to make sure that both pro and I were on the same page. My current pro yard is the best place I've ever been I've never been charged extra by my current pro for anything other than farriery - he's driven to pick up special feed for my very ill horse, he kindly offered to drive my other horse to/from the vets hospital for me because I'm pregnant (I did pay fuel costs), he personally walked my horse around at 9pm at night on a freezing dark night when he was colicking whilst we waited for the vet, he's got on one of my horses when he started playing up whilst I was schooling him one evening (he had finished working for evening and was going back to have dinner but saw me struggling). One of his grooms drove to the yard specially to help me when he heard I was cold hosing my horse at 9pm and that same groom has helped keep my boy alive the last few months as we've battled laminitis and abscesses - his groom is willing to stay late and do anything to help my horse who is a bog standard 21yr old coloured cob! His yard is full of very expensive, talented horses but if I need help with either of my 2 boys both the eventer and his grooms will do anything for me. They key is good communication - discuss with them how they run their yard and tell them your requirements and expectations. Chances are the pro yard are just used to lots of owners who just turn up and leave their horses there without much interaction. But tell them you want to be involved in decisions and every pro I have liveried with has done their best to accommodate me.

 

[Fidgety]

My experience has been completely the opposite with several pro yards, so please don't paint all pro yards with the same brush.

I wasn't. The clue was in the 'my' in the sentence 'This has been my (two) experience(s) of being at pro yards.'

 

[xspiralx]

The only full/part livery yard I've ever been truly happy at in terms of the standards of horse care, is my current one, which is run by someone who has the livery yard as the main agenda. That means the standards of horse care are amazing because she takes it very seriously and it is her top priority.

I've been on several yards that have full/part liveries as a way to fund their riding aspirations (none of them top level) and in my experience the liveries are much more an after thought and the standards haven't been what I'd expect. I don't mean major breaches of welfare, but things like not enough hay or water at night, not enough thought into which rugs to use, beds not skipped out enough or mucked out properly, feet not picked out, that sort of thing.

I think you need to find a yard where the livery yard is the main business and therefore that is given top priority.

 

[Micropony]

If you haven't already, it's definitely worth a proper conversation about your concerns. It may be that they do 'look after your horse like their own', e.g. they might not consider lots of turnout to be as important as a lot of leisure riders would.

I would expect them to be making sensible decisions about things like what boots and rugs are appropriate. Not having tie-ups outside the stables wouldn't bother me and I can see why they might have made that choice. Were you promised rubber matting? At the yard where I keep my horse if you want it you buy it and arrange to get it fitted, or bung one of the staff are few quid to fit it on their day off!

If they listen and are prepared to work with you it could be fine. But it could be they are just not set up to offer the sort of service you really want, and can't or won't adjust their routines to accommodate your needs and preferences for your horse. If that's the case your best option may well be to move to somewhere more suitable.

 

[ironhorse]

We have been at livery on a couple of competition yards, and while on the face of it the high standards and good facilities are attractive, at the end of the day you are just funding their competition programme. We have had issues such as no one being on the yard after 5pm and horse owners being on their own in a poorly lit yard - although not a problem for me as I work from home; no flexibility on amounts of hay/turnout etc (3yo only turned out on his day off until I insisted etc); all arenas in use for clinics for full days on a Sat/Sun etc
As others have said it may be better to look for a dedicated livery yard with the facilities/approach to suit the working owner. We are now at a fantastic yard which although the facilities are shared with competition riders has the YM's focus totally on the liveries. It is totally professional and customer focused, and every livery is equal - if you have a horse in training with pro you can also find yourself slipping down the pecking order when a 'better' horse comes in!

 

[muddy_grey]

It is worth a conversation with the YO/YM, but it might be worth starting to look around.
The daily T/O is something you specifically asked about so that would be a red flag for me. Personally I am not that bothered about it as long as the horse does something, but the fact you asked and it isn't being done would worry me.
Not consulting you about feed/rugs/hay etc is pretty standard on a competition yard. TBH most owners don't care as long as the horse looks well, they trust the pro to make the right choices. If you want to be included then you need to tell them. They should then be happy to ask/consult you if not then move.
No tying outside of stable is pretty standard on a comp yard (and I have worked on a few). Is there not a wash box where you can tie up?
The lack of storage would drive me nuts.
Unless they said there would be rubber matting, then that is not an issue. If you want it then buy it yourself.

 

[blackhor2e]

I think you have to make your expectations clear and speak to the person who runs it and tell him/her all your concerns and try and let them put them right.

 

[justine1559]

Thank you for all your feedback and suggestions. I think the best thing I can do is have a discussion with the person running the yard and see if some of the issues can be resolved. In hindsight I definitely blame myself as I made far too many assumptions and didn't ask nearly enough specific questions. However the turnout may prove a dealbreaker as it's the main reason I moved yard's as my mare is very sharp, which I like, but having not gone out last winter, she was very difficult and I really hoped to avoid that this year. I do take on board that some people have said that the pro knows best and they shouldn't need to consult me but I've had my horse since she was 4 and having competed up to intermediate I do have a bit of a clue and want to be involved. Anyway I'm going to have a chat this weekend and take it from there. Thank you again to everyone.

 

[rachk89]

I would move. It's unlikely to change unfortunately.

I have found that places with a posh background or run by high up riders don't seem to offer a great service yet charge a lot for the 'name' basically. Place near me is 'posh' because it used to hold big 3 day events and have professionals compete there. Used to as in about 6 years ago. They still think they are great and charge far too much for pretty shoddy stables that you have to vacate any time they want them for an event. No thanks lol.

 

[Oscar]

My main concerns would be is the horse getting the care and attention it needs? I.e daily turnout, clean beds, ad lib hay and plenty of water. I was on a pro yard and I found the yard to be lacking in all of these areas, so I moved. It was a steep learning curve but being told one thing and getting another isn't good enough at £380 a week for two horses!!

If the horse is getting the above I could forgive rugs being changed, and no boots for turnout etc, I hate seeing horses in boots In the field personally,and I hate seeing horses with 5 rugs on, but again it's a personal thing.

If you ain't happy, then you need to tell the person you are paying, not their staff - and be very clear if they can't provide x,y & z then you will be moving asap.

 

[SO1]

If you only have space for one turnout rug and you cant get to the yard every day what would they do if there was a sudden change of weather and the horse needed a different sort of rug? I would expect a competent professional to know what rug to put on and when and also which boots to use in which situation. Turning out in boots is a bit controversial, as there is a school of thought that wearing boots for long period of time heats up the tendons which can put them at risk.

It sounds like they don't have enough turnout and storage space for the number of horses they have on the yard and that the livery business is just an afterthought to bring in some extra cash and maybe not thought through properly or just a short term solution to a cash flow problem.

I am on part livery everything except grooming and riding. I have a tie up area outside my stable. I did have to buy my own rubber mats though. The YO suggested he might benefit from rubber mats and a stall chain and so I bought them both for him. The yard decides how much hay and feed he needs in consultation with me. I have a native pony so he is a dieter, and he used to be on soaked hay but they bought a hay steamer so suggested I try him on the steamed hay instead and that seems to be working well. He also has a different feed from the other part liveries as he has to have low energy feed. The atmosphere on the yard is more of a community atmosphere and the YO likes to get to know the horses and take a personal interest in them and what people are up to. Maybe on a big competition yard they have not got time to do that.

Does your horse seem to be treated in a similar way to the other horses as it may that they are used to owners on full livery not coming very often and letting them decide what is best for the horse. I suggest you have a word with the owner and maybe write down your requirements and ask him/her if they can be meet or not. It may just not be the right sort of yard for you, or they may not be used to dealing with the sort of customer that you are and need a bit of clarification. You might be happier at a yard where the manager or owner has more time to communicate with you or offer you a more personal/bespoke service.

Different yards have different ways of doing things and you need one that suits your horse and your routine. Is the eventer competing your horse you as well as schooling it? If not then could you perhaps look at moving to a part livery yard with good turnout and facilities and then get a trainer in perhaps to school your horse a couple of times a week.

 

[Smogul]

Outside tie ups are more a diy thing I think.

Outside tie up is something that would seriously put me off! Not been allowed in any yard I have been on, all full livery.

 

[ironhorse]

Outside tie up is something that would seriously put me off! Not been allowed in any yard I have been on, all full livery.

Some horses are easier to tack up and groom when not in the stable though - what do yards with no tie up area do when the farrier or vet comes or when they want to clip? We are in an American barn with a large rubber matted tie up area and a separate cross tie area at one end; we also have access to a shared solarium area with cross ties. I can completely see the logic in not tying up outside the stable for safety and convenience reasons, but sometimes you need somewhere to tie up !

 

[dressage_diva]

At my yard (eventing yard) we have a washbox and one tie up area that is used by the farrier, but we don't have any other official tie up areas - it isn't worth the risk of a horse getting injured!!