Full livery - what is reasonable?

[junglefairy]

I’ve been on 2 full livery yards now (full livery being all care but not riding), neither cheap. I find it quite frustrating that on both yards small things are regularly missed/go wrong. For example, horse being given the wrong feed, supplements not being fed as requested, feet not being picked out, too heavily rugged etc.

Is this the norm on full livery and do I just have to accept it or move to DIY (which I can’t due to work)? Or for my £500 odd a month should I be expecting them to get the basics right?

 

[LaurenBay]

Sounds like a very poorly run livery yard.

Is there one yard person or does she have grooms? If you like everything else about the yard then I would speak with the yard owner and say that you have noticed feet not being picked out and wrong feed given. If nothing changes then I would look somewhere else.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

Is what is included in your livery in writing and you have signed and agreed it? That is what we do write down what is included, so livery know what they are getting. I would take it up with YM and say your issues and you found some things not done and your not happy

 

[Leo Walker]

Honestly, its been my experience. One yard when I went up at the weekend and picked his feet out half his sole fell away and left a a massive bleeding hole. When I asked them if he had maybe had an abcess burst they had no idea. He hadnt. It was just thrush that had eaten his feet away. That was the same place that wouldnt listen to my requests about hay and feed, and where he ended up getting LGL and subsequently dying a few months later

Another place I was having to come down every afternoon to feed my horse huge buckets of grass chaff as he wasnt being given enough hay, despite me paying for hay separately. Then there was the one that left my horse turned out in a dirt pen with no hay or water at the back of the yard where he coudnt see any other horses and couldnt understand why he became distressed.

I could go on! I'm on DIY now and I'm struggling with my health and its an absolute nightmare. I would honestly rather give up horses permanently than go back to paying someone a fortune for doing an appalling job!

 

[alainax]

I've been on 2 full livery and would try to avoid doing it again. Nothing deliberately wrong, just lots of little things that I would have preferred done differently. I'm now on a mix of full and part, and soy in summer, and it's fab.

 

[Red-1]

I do think a lot of the problem is in the cutting of prices meaning a cut in hours to do the job and a cut in care/goods.

I pay £160 a week when I need a livery yard and I think this is very reasonable for what they give. That is for all care and riding as well. These are professional people, with qualifications and experience, and with great facilities. For proper care I would be prepared to pay £20 a day minimum for all the feed/hay/bedding/land/stable/care, and that would be without riding. Even that is cheap considering insurance, weed killer, muck removal, arena maintenance, electricity, business rates, water, responsibility etc etc etc.

If you add it all up, that is very cheap per hour, with not a lot for maintenance. Have a look at what kennels charge for a comparison, and dogs need far less food and smaller kennels.

 

[pippixox]

I have had mixed experiences with full livery.
when I got my first horse he was on full livery at an equestrain centre and riding school. His block looked very smart, but there were always small problems, which all add up. I mostly found issues at the weekend (when luckily I was around more) as they had weekend young girls working. It was great for a while as the head groom looked after him and everything was spot on. But when she moved, one weekend I brought him in, he was hopping lame on a back leg,massively swollen- but because of mud fever that had been getting worse for a few weeks without them noticing (I had been away but as full livery he should be getting daily checks along with the rug changes and scabs should of been noticed when picking out feet.

I moved him to a much smaller scruffier yard, but the care was perfect. I was once away for a month and knew he would be fine. It was about 650 including everything but it was by m25 london.

I think communication is key in order to hopefully improve things. even if you have a leave giant notes on the stable door for example.

but you are right that these little basics should be met! I cant help but think there is so little profit that they have to cut corners and then care standards drop

 

[Shay]

Wow. OK - maybe my standards are too high. Most of mine are on DIY / part. But obviously go onto full if I am away. And I have one on full / sales livery elsewhere.

I can accept that everyone has slightly different standards. But basic failures of care and completely unacceptable in my view. Feed, supplements etc should be provided as directed. Beds cleaned to an objectively reasonable standard, basic care such as groom, feet etc should be a minimum. I do pay more - but that can be geographically dependent and we are close to London.

 

[ihatework]

I do think a lot of the problem is in the cutting of prices meaning a cut in hours to do the job and a cut in care/goods.

I pay £160 a week when I need a livery yard and I think this is very reasonable for what they give. That is for all care and riding as well. These are professional people, with qualifications and experience, and with great facilities. For proper care I would be prepared to pay £20 a day minimum for all the feed/hay/bedding/land/stable/care, and that would be without riding. Even that is cheap considering insurance, weed killer, muck removal, arena maintenance, electricity, business rates, water, responsibility etc etc etc.

If you add it all up, that is very cheap per hour, with not a lot for maintenance. Have a look at what kennels charge for a comparison, and dogs need far less food and smaller kennels.

I do think this is often the crux of the matter, although not always (I have seen some very expensive yards not give a flying fig and some on the cheaper side go the extra mile), but overall you generally get what you pay for.

In my experience it's 50/50 on full livery yards and it's linked to good management and valued staff with low turnover.

The supplements and feet should be routine.
Rugs is always contentious, because staff have to deal with a multitude of livery 'rug requests' and they will invariably get it wrong sometimes. They can't always foresee that Mrs Smith with overweight cobbus has suddenly decided that now it is below 10 degrees cobbus obviously needs both his heavyweights on

 

[Sussexbythesea]

Unfortunately it’s been my experience and I don’t think it has anything to do with the price you pay. I am now on DIY but pay someone Monday to Friday to provide care because of random work travel. He now gets the bespoke care I want him to have. It costs me approx £200 on top of Livery, feed, and bedding but I don’t have to worry about dirty beds, supplements not fed and rationed hay amongst other many things.

 

[criso]

I think there can be an issue on bigger yards that have more staff, higher staff turnover and no consistency in who is looking after which horses so things don't get communicated.

With supplements I make up each day in a little plastic pot named if more than one horse, so very easy for whoever is doing the feeds to just tip it in each day.

Feeds - main issue I find is everyone's idea of a scoop is different so by putting smaller scoops in my bins, there is less room for error.

Rugs I think you have to trust a little to the ym as they know how cold it is, whether raining or not and make a judgement.

 

[Damnation]

I've never been in a position where I could afford full livery, but I was staff at a full livery yard for a few years.

I can't speak for all yards, but we tried our best for each horse. We did feed suppliments correctly and I was always mindful to ensure that all horses had a dry bed, hay, water etc.

However, there was always that select few liveries that took it to the extreme. One horse took nearly 20minutes just to prep for turnout. You had to take his 3 stable rugs off, but 2 turnout rugs on, a full set of brushing boots, mud fever cream then overreach boots on. When she turned him out if she had ridden she did the rugs but nothing else, which felt like "oh I may as well make the staff jump through hoops as I am paying".

One livery went nuts because a strand of hay was in her horse's water. Another one went ballistic because their horse was brought in 20 minutes early(was due to rain). He used to sit up on the main road on up the hill in his car and watch what time we went to catch in at etc. And don't even get me started on the rude horses that liveries expected you to just be able to deal with. I had one who was allowed to literally do whatever she wanted, when I told the owner that I had reprimanded her horse the response was "oh she doesn't like that.". Well I didn't like your rude, bolshy horse rearing up at me because she was asked to wait for a car to go past!

I agree that there are some substandard yards, even as a DIY I have been on some god awful yards that border on welfare issues, but there are also sub standard liveries who treat you like dirt.

 

[ihatework]

I've never been in a position where I could afford full livery, but I was staff at a full livery yard for a few years.

I can't speak for all yards, but we tried our best for each horse. We did feed suppliments correctly and I was always mindful to ensure that all horses had a dry bed, hay, water etc.

However, there was always that select few liveries that took it to the extreme. One horse took nearly 20minutes just to prep for turnout. You had to take his 3 stable rugs off, but 2 turnout rugs on, a full set of brushing boots, mud fever cream then overreach boots on. When she turned him out if she had ridden she did the rugs but nothing else, which felt like "oh I may as well make the staff jump through hoops as I am paying".

One livery went nuts because a strand of hay was in her horse's water. Another one went ballistic because their horse was brought in 20 minutes early(was due to rain). He used to sit up on the main road on up the hill in his car and watch what time we went to catch in at etc. And don't even get me started on the rude horses that liveries expected you to just be able to deal with. I had one who was allowed to literally do whatever she wanted, when I told the owner that I had reprimanded her horse the response was "oh she doesn't like that.". Well I didn't like your rude, bolshy horse rearing up at me because she was asked to wait for a car to go past!

I agree that there are some substandard yards, even as a DIY I have been on some god awful yards that border on welfare issues, but there are also sub standard liveries who treat you like dirt.

Well said!

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I wouldn't agree that expensive = good. Admittedly my yard was not full livery as you define it. We had bedding/feed/hay/haylage included in livery, TO/Bring in, rug changes etc. And the only thing we had to do ourselves was muck out and do waters. This was £270pcm which I think is incredibly good.

My YO, and the staff whoom helped were fab. Any slight knock/swelling/bump/unevenness was noticed immediately and was dealt with as desired. Horse would be creamed/poulticed/bandaged etc at no extra cost. Waters would be topped up if they noticed they were low. The YO knew exactly what horses got along and would know straight away if any problems were occurring and offer alternative TO arrangements, including individual TO for a while if horse in recovery/laminitic etc. Rug changes were done, boots on/off, feeds were spot on and would be discussed with you if they thought you could up it/down it/ change it. School and fields were fabulously looked after and managed well. And you could go to her with any worry or question and she would really take time out to help you. (Plus she did hour lessons for £10 for liveries which is amazing). You could also have a full livery day as and when for an extra £10 which is very reasonable. I really had no complaints.

HOWEVER, you have to do your bit too. Sweep up after yourself, remember that she is a very experienced person with the interests of the horse at heart so if the rug that has been put on isn't what you would have but the horse is warm.. so what. They bring in slightly early as it's about to pour, no problem. About to leave and finished riding, then change rugs, put on TO boots, make sure haynets filled if you have 5 mins. Make sure you do poultices if you are there and know how. It's all give and take. To have a good livery arrangement you need a good YO and a good livery.

 

[Peter7917]

I'm sure most people on full livery are normal. A yard I know used to have this one woman who would sit and watch the groom mucking out while drinking a cuppa. I always found it odd. I know she was paying for it but I personally couldn't sit and watch someone muck out my stable. If I was there I would do it myself

 

[wiglet]

I'm on full livery - everything except riding although I could pay the staff to school/lunge/hack if necessary. My yard is spot on and my horse is totally chilled and settled there. There may be tiny things that on DIY wouldn't arise like feed time, all the horses are fed at the same time which is fine but, my horse is at the top of the yard and has to watch every other horse being fed before she gets her feed. This makes her a little anxious at times. The basics are fine though, deep, clean bed, lots of hay/hage and quality bucket feeds. You will be informed of any cuts/injuries etc.

Most importantly, the YO is approachable and if something is not right - ie you think your horse needs more feed, you can discuss it with her and make the necessary changes without any drama. So many of my previous full livery yards have had YOs that think they know best and refuse to listen to your concerns. Also dirty beds, mouldy hay and being lied to about turnout are big irritations for me.

 

[junglefairy]

As another posted has said I think the issues in my experience at bigger yards arise from not having consistency/quality in staff. Most staff are great but you’ll get the odd one or two that skips jobs. I try to let the YO know when things happen so she can take it up with the staff (I assume she does as this is her livelihood).

I do think it must be tough running a bigger yard and keeping on top of staff. I also empathise with nightmare liveries, I’ve known a few (and what’s with every other horse needing to be in full turnout boots etc. Nowadays). However, my horse is well behaved and low maintenance, and I only expect the basics to be done.

It sounds like my experience is pretty standard...

 

[SEL]

Mine only goes onto full livery when I'm away but I can't fault the yard. I leave supplements in baby food pots to be tipped into feeds and rugs in pretty much every weight - & let them get on with it. Hay has to be soaked too which is a PITA.

Plus daily exercise is by a much better rider than me, so I get back a horse who's been schooled too.

The standard of care is the same for any full or schooling livery.

Does add up though. OH wants to go away for 3 weeks next year and with 2 horses and a cat needing care it all starts to get a bit expensive....

 

[pepsimaxrock]

I'm on full livery because I have to be - I work in the opposite direction of the yard and its an hour away. I cannot afford the time to drive there and back twice a week. When I am there I will help out - but I don't muck out - generally if I am coming in the morning they wait till I ride and muck her stable then. If I have finished riding after she has been in for a few hours then I will defo skip out. We are buying a service, not servants.

 

[SO1]

I have only been on one part livery yard (all care except riding & grooming). It is a medium size yard and they are very good but I think they don't take more horses than they can cope with and they have enough staff to make sure everything is done properly and are proud of the service they offer. I am paying more than £500 a month though. Having said that more expensive yards may not necessarily be providing better care as the extra costs could be for facilities such as indoor schools, x country courses and gallops for example.

I think like with any job you have to expect someone to occasionally make a mistake and as long as it is not a dangerous one then I am fine with that. My pony's needs are fairly basic as he does not wear boots in the field or need lots of rugs changes. He does need to wear a grazing muzzle if there is lots of grass but if someone new forgot to put it on when they turned out or gave him the wrong food, or forgot to pick his feet out it would not be a massive deal. I manage a team of people at my work and expect them to occasionally make an error they are only human after all and in most cases it is not a big problem as long as they don't keep making the same mistake over and over again so I would offer the same level of understanding for those who look after my pony. Deliberate negligence however would be taken more seriously, there is a difference between forgetting to do something or not understanding what needed to be done, and deliberately not doing something for example giving the wrong food to save money versus giving the wrong food by mistake believing they were giving the right food.

If they want to catch in early due to bad weather or occasionally vary the routine to fit in with their plans I don't mind and my pony as long as he has enough to eat and spends some time in the field doesn't mind his routine being varied a bit either.

In terms of noticing injuries or illness obvious things I would expect to be picked up but my pony is quite a hairy native pony and in the winter the hair could disguise a cut or injury and they are not giving him a full groom and body inspection so I accept they might miss something.

I think a bit of give and take is in order to make things work. If I am on the yard I like to help so I will catch in, feed, skip out, do his hay for example and try not to make requests that require lots of extra work and to trust the judgements of those who run the yard with regard to rugs and how much hay/feed he needs. The YO gets to know the horses so can see what they like and know if they behave out of character and treat them as individuals.

 

[zaminda]

We are buying a service, not servants.

I think people forget that sometimes! I have both been on full livery, and looked after horses for people, and the way some liveries behave is appalling. Many of the staff are on very low wages, and are often little more than kids, which people forget. If you consider what the difference between DIY, including everything you spend, and full, there is often not a great deal of difference. That doesn't leave a great deal of money, or time for care. I have been very lucky when on full livery, but I am almost always around which is different to some.
I think sometimes you are better being on DIY and paying a good freelance. It is more expensive, as they charge a reasonable amount for their time, but you will get a better service.
People also need to be realistic about the behaviour of their little darlings, bad behaviour makes everything take longer, and puts staff at risk. Hopefully it won't take forever for the horse industry to catch up with everyone else and realise that they need to consider health and safety for their staff, and some people may find they are no longer welcome on full livery.

 

[ApolloStorm]

I to have never been on full livery only worked on them- the biggest one I worked on, had the worst standards- I would not have liveried my horse there for free! Personally I did the best I could given we had 10 mins per stable, big straw beds with enormous hunt horses in- it was rank. I only had time to turn the banks in one stable per day ( I only worked 3 days) or I'd not have time to finish the rest- and the YM comes blaring in saying it's my fault I never turn banks the other girl does hers every day and liveries have been complaining. I then proceeded to lift the banks in a stable which were gross underneath and told her that I was the only one turning banks- and there's no way they would get this gross if the other girl was turning them! I was generally used as a scapegoat for the YM- and the other staff! But she would never realise she was majorly understaffing the yard, and that of course we were under motivated I got paid less in 3 days than I would if I worked one 9-5 day on minimum wage! I didn't mind when liveries would come up to me and ask for something done/ being specific with how they wanted something, but if they went and told the YM I'd never find out until I was being shouted at for not doing something I didn't know about! I lasted 6 months, before I walked out mid shift for being expected to keep my usual pace in the blazing hot 30'c heat we had this summer, without stopping for a drink.
On top of this- you should have heard the way the staff spoke about the liveries! They bitched so hard if you asked for one tiny thing to be done with your own horse! I was appalled really since people were paying for professional service- which imo they never got! If this had been my only experience of working on yards I'd have chosen a different career path! Doesn't help I was getting up at 5.30 driving for 30mins to do my 2 horses in the AM, going to work all day, then coming back to do my horses ( who needed mucking out again) in the PM, it was normal for me to not get home until gone 8.30, got forbid I had the energy to ride- I didn't get home until 10 a few times. I will admit to being 2 stone lighter then!

 

[Cecile]

I'm sure most people on full livery are normal. A yard I know used to have this one woman who would sit and watch the groom mucking out while drinking a cuppa. I always found it odd. I know she was paying for it but I personally couldn't sit and watch someone muck out my stable. If I was there I would do it myself

This made me laugh ^^

When mine were on livery due to work going on at my yard a woman used to do exactly what you wrote, then one evening she announced to me she thought her horse needed a medium weight stable rug on as it was chilly, she spent ages trying to find the groom to put on a rug and when she couldn't find her she wrote about the horse needing a rug change to medium weight on the notice board
Maybe she didn't know where her rugs were kept but I could of rugged up 10 horses whilst she went to so much searching around for the groom and writing things down on the notice board

 

[Sussexbythesea]

I'm sure most people on full livery are normal. A yard I know used to have this one woman who would sit and watch the groom mucking out while drinking a cuppa. I always found it odd. I know she was paying for it but I personally couldn't sit and watch someone muck out my stable. If I was there I would do it myself

But what else was she supposed to do? Is it the watching or the not doing anything that bothers you? When I go to the hairdresser I don’t do my own hair or if I pay a builder to do a job I don’t then do it for them. That’s just weird!

When I was on part-Livery I would skip out extra droppings if I was there, I certainly would clean up after myself but if I sat and had a cup of tea whilst others mucked out I can’t see anything wrong with that?

I certainly don’t see Yard staff as servants nor would I treat them rudely or badly in anyway but I wouldn’t expect to do jobs I’d contracted and paid others to do.

One time I was on PL I had moved from DIY and kept my storage. So I had extra hay in there and a bag of feed to mix his supplements in so that I could feed them myself to know that he got them and when I was away I got a friend to check him and do the extras as I couldn’t trust the Yard.

I’ve been mainly on PL because of erratic work travel and hours and I need the flexibility - it’s not because I’m rich in fact it means I just have less to spend on other stuff and have no savings.

 

[criso]

This made me laugh ^^

When mine were on livery due to work going on at my yard a woman used to do exactly what you wrote, then one evening she announced to me she thought her horse needed a medium weight stable rug on as it was chilly, she spent ages trying to find the groom to put on a rug and when she couldn't find her she wrote about the horse needing a rug change to medium weight on the notice board
Maybe she didn't know where her rugs were kept but I could of rugged up 10 horses whilst she went to so much searching around for the groom and writing things down on the notice board

Maybe but on some yards rugs are kept together in a rug room and I can imagine the controversy if someones rug was put on another horse.

I do think there is a difference between doing little bits and pieces and a full muck out though. If I go up I will finish off, feed after I've ridden, rug, check water and skip out, make sure I leave the place tidy, however I wouldn't muck out (apart from on yards where the standards were so low it needed redoing.) Nor would the staff necessarily thank you as inevitably you would use too much bedding, not enough bedding, trail straw across the yard, not deposit it on the muck heap correct. You should hear the bitching about how 5 day liveries do it all wrong at the weekend.

An interesting one is if you come up to ride do you catch in. I always do but I remember someone who would ask a member of staff to catch in - she would give them notice asking for her horse to be in by a certain time. On the one hand this seemed lazy to me but you also need to consider that the fields were very deep clay and I wouldn't want to go out there in leather boots plus with group turnout there could be other horses out there who were unpredictable and needed careful handling.

 

[LeannePip]

An interesting one is if you come up to ride do you catch in. I always do but I remember someone who would ask a member of staff to catch in - she would give them notice asking for her horse to be in by a certain time. On the one hand this seemed lazy to me but you also need to consider that the fields were very deep clay and I wouldn't want to go out there in leather boots plus with group turnout there could be other horses out there who were unpredictable and needed careful handling.

I do some work on a fully livery yard and if liveries need their horses before we do the 'bring in' then they have to get them in themselves, likewise if they ask for them to be left in in the morning, they have to turn out after they've ridden. But they do make crazy rug/ boot requests, i think its just because they dont have to do it themselves . . . if these people were on DIY i doubt half the horses would have the boot/ rug requirements that they do!

Mine is on part livery and i leave her in her turnouts as much as possible to save the yard time in the morning/ evening as it is irritating swapping a 200grm stable for the exact equivalent in a turn out for no apparent reason! In the depths of winter the yard do make a point of asking people to leave turnouts on and layer over the top if they are dry, because when they go to change rugs in the morning and its -2oC they feel bad taking toasty warm rugs off and putting freezing cold rugs back on!