Full loan- major vets bills

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Laura2013

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I saw a horse this morning that is for full loan.

The current loaner is unable to keep him and so the owner has asked her to loan on her behalf. I am therefore dealing with the loaner rather than the owner.

She she says she currently has full responsibility for him inc vets bills... which in principle is fine and I would be quite happy to deal with vacs, routine vets bills and so on, as well as the "normal" stuff like cuts, assesses anything like that. My question would be what would happen in the case of major vet call outs- eg if he did a tendon, or needed or colic surgery or heaven forbid ended up to have some kind of degenerative condition. I realise this is worse case scenario thinking but have had enough horses to know that the worst case can and does happen. Actually tendon is probably not a good example, because I can understand that anything that occurred through the loaners use of the horse would be down to them to pay.

In a normal full loan set up, who would have responsibility in these cases? Is there normally any situation in which it would be expected that the owner would pay?

Bear in mind that it would initially be a short term loan of 6 months.
 
i was going to say insurance is essential. having said that, it will only cover for a certain period...the problem is the long term limiting illness...
:(
 
This is something to be sorted. In the end the owner has the responsibility, but if I was loaning out the horse I would get it as comprehensively insured as possible, and make the loanee, i.e. you, pay the bill, plus give details of what the horse is allowed to do. Maybe the owner would pay, say 20% of the cost.

In that way the owner knows that the horse is properly insured, rather than leaving up to the loanee who might want to spend less. After all, if you owned the horse you would be responsible for it for everymore, in effect you are having the use of a horse for nothing, so the cost of iinsuring is a small contribution as the owner is still taking the risk. As for long term problems - well in the end the owner would have to step up and take back the horse. That is probably why the horse is for loan and not for sale.
 
Our loan horse is fully insured and I pay his owner the monthly premium. He has a pre existing condition that is excluded insurance wise, so we wrote a clause in the loan agreement to cover this. Basically his owner will meet any costs for the excluded condition.
 
Good point re insurance- I suppose I didn't really think that through as would definitely have him insured. Am potentially thinking of having a vet check to ensure there are no current issues and a clause to say something like the owner will have him back if he is no longer fit for purposes (I think there is something similar but better phrased in the BHS loan outline).
 
I have a horse on loan. The owner insures him and pays the premiums. I pay for any small vets bills and routine stuff. Anything bigger is claimed on the insurance and I pay the first £90 of the claim (the excess). I would not consider having a horse on loan if the owner did not keep up the insurance payments.
 
I've had a couple of impressive vet bills with my loan mare (gastric ulcers, now hock arthritis) and the insurance covers it. Her owner and I have it in the contract that I pay anything routine and the excess on the insurance (she pays the actual insurance - her choice!), but if they fail to cover anything or a condition gets excluded and still needs treatment then we split the cost.

I've also loaned out a horse with a pre-existing, insurance-excluded issue and had it in the contract that I would cover any costs related to that problem. Anything else was the same as the above.

If you do go for it, make sure you do get a contract, insurance, and deal directly with the owner before you commit to anything - at the very least you need her signature on the contract!
 
tbh I would run a mile from a loaner who didn't accept this as part of horse ownership - the potential for injuries. if he does a tendon/needs colic surgery a lot of owners would end up footing the bill but if it happens in your care the rule is it's generally up to you to sort out.
 
Hopefully the horse would be insured.
But who pays the excess depends on the agreement.
Really full loan means everything, so loaner should pay excess but I know a lot of owner loaners agree to pay half each.
 
May be controversial here. But I would suspect that a horse suffering a major illness or injury would be returned to its owner pretty quickly. And certainly if I had a riding horse on full loan and this situation arose i'm afraid I wouldn't be footing the bill.
 
SusieT said:
tbh I would run a mile from a loaner who didn't accept this as part of horse ownership - the potential for injuries. if he does a tendon/needs colic surgery a lot of owners would end up footing the bill but if it happens in your care the rule is it's generally up to you to sort out.
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If it was long term or permanent loan I would be of the same frame of mind- as it is, I would have the horse for 6 months. And in my opinion, which may be wrong, this does change things slightly.... As if it did a tendon in the field say 2 months in and had to go on box rest for the rest of the loan period, I would then do 4 months of box rest just to give it back?
 
I agree with Amymay. I loan out one of my horses, and because I am his owner I bear the responsibility for him. Yes, routine and minor vet bills go to the loaner, but I fully expect him to be returned to me if he breaks down. Not saying I am looking forward to that, but that's what ownership means - responsibility. The loan agreement has to allow for the loaner to return the horse with reasonable notice and for the owner to require it back with reasonable notice. If you are loaning I would sign up to pay vets bills while the horse is in your care but you should not be responsible once the horse is returned in accordance with your loan agreement. Lets hope the situation doesnt arise :)
 
amymay said:
May be controversial here. But I would suspect that a horse suffering a major illness or injury would be returned to its owner pretty quickly. And certainly if I had a riding horse on full loan and this situation arose i'm afraid I wouldn't be footing the bill.
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I'm another who wouldn't be putting somebody else's horse through colic surgery or the months of box rest after. The whole point of loaning is that you don't have the responsibility of ownership. The horse returning suddenly and early with vet bills is the flipside risk the owner takes, for being able to take the horse back for their own use any time they want.

That's not to say I wouldn't care for the loan horse properly, I'm an experienced horsewoman and the horse would have good care, but tendon injury, laminitis, colic surgery, arthritis, kissing spine etc etc and the horse would be going back to its owner.
 
Sugar_and_Spice said:
I'm another who wouldn't be putting somebody else's horse through colic surgery or the months of box rest after. The whole point of loaning is that you don't have the responsibility of ownership. The horse returning suddenly and early with vet bills is the flipside risk the owner takes, for being able to take the horse back for their own use any time they want.

That's not to say I wouldn't care for the loan horse properly, I'm an experienced horsewoman and the horse would have good care, but tendon injury, laminitis, colic surgery, arthritis, kissing spine etc etc and the horse would be going back to its owner.
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This is the precisely why I would never loan a horse out.
 
Sugar_and_Spice said:
I'm another who wouldn't be putting somebody else's horse through colic surgery or the months of box rest after. The whole point of loaning is that you don't have the responsibility of ownership. The horse returning suddenly and early with vet bills is the flipside risk the owner takes, for being able to take the horse back for their own use any time they want.

That's not to say I wouldn't care for the loan horse properly, I'm an experienced horsewoman and the horse would have good care, but tendon injury, laminitis, colic surgery, arthritis, kissing spine etc etc and the horse would be going back to its owner.
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the reasons above are exactly why the childrens first pony is on loan and NOT sold, I want to be able to call it time when I feel it is time and not put and older pony through colic surgery/months in a box etc etc.

owner should always remain responsible for any thing other that preventative veterinary care
 
amymay said:
May be controversial here. But I would suspect that a horse suffering a major illness or injury would be returned to its owner pretty quickly. And certainly if I had a riding horse on full loan and this situation arose i'm afraid I wouldn't be footing the bill.
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I am with you. There has to be an advantage to loaning and that means not ending up with a lawnmower. Seeing as an owner could take a horse back that the loanee had paid for treatment of and rehabbed then surely they should be able to send back if horse isn't fit for purpose?

I had a short term loan on a horse that had some issues that hadn't been prevalent as he hadn't been in proper work, he went back as wasn't fit for the purpose I got him for (which was just hacking) as per the mutually agreed loan agreement.
 
CBAnglo said:
This is the precisely why I would never loan a horse out.
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Me too, additionally because IME a lot of loanees don't take good care of the horse sadly, knowing they can send it back when they've damaged it, which is an awful attitude to have.

I don't loan, I own, partly because I got fed up with owners taking horses back after I'd schooled them up and partly due to the insurance issue. Many owners expect the loanee to insure the horse, at a cost of several hundred pounds per year, but I don't believe in insurance! I also don't believe in major surgery, hugely invasive or long term procedures which often have no guarantee of soundness at the end of it. I'd PTS instead, except I wouldn't PTS somebody else's horse unless its an emergency, as that's the owners responsibility. It's so much easier just to own!

I don't know why anybody puts horses out on full loan TBH, it seems like one big crazy minefield of potential disasters to me.
 
One of my horses is out on loan, and while the lady who has him deals with day to day bills etc, anything large or additional would be in agreement with me, she treats him very much as hers, and I trust her to make the right choices if she needed to, he's retired & in his 20s now, with preexisting tendon & ligament issues so insurance is a total waste of time, instead I just keep money on one side for him,

Loaning can work really well if you are lucky enough with the person you pick, I very much picked the person who had him, rather than going with the first person who wanted him!
 
twiggy2 said:
the reasons above are exactly why the childrens first pony is on loan and NOT sold, I want to be able to call it time when I feel it is time and not put and older pony through colic surgery/months in a box etc etc.

owner should always remain responsible for any thing other that preventative veterinary care
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That's interesting. I think you're the first person I've 'met' who isn't loaning their pony out because they'd prefer someone else to pay for and take responsibility for its old age/end of life. Most I know loaning out older equines seem to do it as a kind of 'cop out' and then complain when one day the pony is given back! They don't want to sell as they like the idea of always having contact with pony but don't actually want responsibility for it.
 
racingdemon said:
Loaning can work really well if you are lucky enough with the person you pick, I very much picked the person who had him, rather than going with the first person who wanted him!
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How could you tell she was the right person? I wouldn't know where to start. I think almost everybody seems nice when I first meet them. I can see how it could work though if you could pick them, rather than it just being about who wants the horse which is what most seem to do.
 
Sugar_and_Spice said:
That's interesting. I think you're the first person I've 'met' who isn't loaning their pony out because they'd prefer someone else to pay for and take responsibility for its old age/end of life. Most I know loaning out older equines seem to do it as a kind of 'cop out' and then complain when one day the pony is given back! They don't want to sell as they like the idea of always having contact with pony but don't actually want responsibility for it.
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Good grief, you must have met some awful people! I loaned my old(ish) boy out at 21 when I started university and took the 3/4 year old with me, because he was much the easier of the two and a been there/done it type. After a couple of false starts, he found a lovely home for 5 years and I was happy to have him back when he needed to retire. I did eventually put him on full livery at a retirement centre (rather than drag him up and down the country with me for job moves), but never felt like he stopped being my responsibility either financially or in terms of making decisions for his care, quality of life, and eventual passage over the bridge. Then again I grew up loaning older ponies, some of whom had owners like you describe...horrible warnings, perhaps?!
 
I had a lovely horse on full loan. Unfortunately he injured his fetlock, and had a joint flush op with three months box rest. I put him through it, but sadly he never came sound, arthritic changes were found and the joint was compromised. He was then PTS at home, at my own cost.

There are decent people out there, I wouldn't dream of shipping him back after he had the accident in my care!
 
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