Full loan- major vets bills

[Booboos]

In your position OP I would make sure I spoke directly to the owner. If you take on the horse this is the person you will have to deal with and not the current loaner.

You need to agree with her:
- who pays the insurance premiums
- who would pay the insurance excess in case of a claim
- who would pay in case of a claim not covered by the insurance.

You can certainly state that you would pay up to X amount and no more. You also need to clarify the terms for terminating the loan. Usually loanees give a month's notice and can return the horse (but the period can vary to whatever you agree), so in case of a long term problem you could chose to return the horse (equally the owner can chose to take the horse back under the agreed terms).

 

[Mistywoo]

I've seen both sides of the coin. I've seen the loaner who cancelled the insurance and handed back a lame horse to an owner with no insurance cover because the loaner had been (allegedly) paying it. When the owner tried to chase the loaner the loaner just stated that she had terminated the loan as per the contract and that the horse was sound when she dropped him off, when quite clearly he wasn't.

I've also seen a horse injured whilst at the loaners and the owner having a tantrum and taking the horse away leaving the loaner paying the insurance premiums each month (took almost 9 months to sort out vets bills etc) with no horse. The owner was holding the loaner accountable for the vets bill and yet was being totally un-cooperative about the horses condition and the sorting out of the bill.

If we were ever to loan then the policy would be in my name both for continuation and safety and who paid what re premium and excess would be negotiated depending on the horse and the home. A teenage happy hacker I might be more inclined to pay both the insurance and the excess in favour of the ideal home than I would a horse capable of giving more ridden wise.

 

[mel_s]

I can only assume that some of the people posting on here have only loaned and never owned a horse?! Some peoples attitudes amaze me and confirm to me that i wont be loaning a horse out. So, If a horse got injured whilst in your care (pulls a tendon whilst being ridden etc) you'd just send it back!?

In this case - yes you definitely want to speak to the owner. You need stuff signing and re the insurance - you want to know if you are to take it out, or leave it with the owner and just pay them for it. If its the latter then double check who is to pay the excess (but it probably will be you). If you are to insure - then have the owner leave their policy in place also to cover the 30 days exclusion period on the new insurance (thats what i did). Just in case.

I'd expect the loaner to be responsible for all vets bills whilst in their care. However - if the horse has a pre-existing condition, i dont think its unreasonable to expect the owner to foot the bill if the horse has to have the vet for something relating to this. But again - you'd want it in writing so that you knew where you stood. I once looked at loaning one that needed remedial type shoes and never once thought to ask them to pay the additional cost actually. Maybe i should have as it did put me off in the end. But it depends whether these things are regular costs or something that might just spring up from nowhere. I'd be wary loaning from the current loaner as they are no one in the eyes of the law. The owner needs to be the one to sign/agree things.

 

[GrumpyHero]

If my loan horse got injured and it was my fault - i would deal with it (he is insured for vets bills) and not send him back.
However if say i found out he had e.g. kissing spines (they dont seem to develop over night) then yes i would consider sending him back. I pay for his insurance (he was only insured 3rd party before i got him) and the insurance is in my name (they know I loan him & have a copy of the agreement). If he were to go back with a chronic long standing injury which has only recently surfaced and not a fault of my own, then I'd be obliged to let his owner use the vet fee cover I pay for him to have (so long as they pay any extras)

He is on LWVTB so if I knew he had an issue that could be long term and not a good chance of full recovery to full work (i.e SI pain, PSD etc) then yes I would send him back .. I love him to pieces but why would I buy a horse who wouldnt pass a vetting.

I'm in this position myself at the moment as i have a 'gut feeling' that something isn't right. Getting the physio out to give him a check over and see what she says, followed by a vet checkup also. It would break my heart to send him back to his owner but I don't see the sense in buying a broken horse, so I want to make sure everything is okay.

 

[Laura2013]

I can only assume that some of the people posting on here have only loaned and never owned a horse?! Some peoples attitudes amaze me and confirm to me that i wont be loaning a horse out. So, If a horse got injured whilst in your care (pulls a tendon whilst being ridden etc) you'd just send it back!?

In this case - yes you definitely want to speak to the owner. You need stuff signing and re the insurance - you want to know if you are to take it out, or leave it with the owner and just pay them for it. If its the latter then double check who is to pay the excess (but it probably will be you). If you are to insure - then have the owner leave their policy in place also to cover the 30 days exclusion period on the new insurance (thats what i did). Just in case.

I'd expect the loaner to be responsible for all vets bills whilst in their care. However - if the horse has a pre-existing condition, i dont think its unreasonable to expect the owner to foot the bill if the horse has to have the vet for something relating to this. But again - you'd want it in writing so that you knew where you stood. I once looked at loaning one that needed remedial type shoes and never once thought to ask them to pay the additional cost actually. Maybe i should have as it did put me off in the end. But it depends whether these things are regular costs or something that might just spring up from nowhere. I'd be wary loaning from the current loaner as they are no one in the eyes of the law. The owner needs to be the one to sign/agree things.

Just to clarify I would obviously have no intention of dumping a lame horse back on the owner particularly if caused when ridden! And tbh in a long term loan arrangement I would be a l

 

[YasandCrystal]

May be controversial here. But I would suspect that a horse suffering a major illness or injury would be returned to its owner pretty quickly. And certainly if I had a riding horse on full loan and this situation arose i'm afraid I wouldn't be footing the bill.

I agree with this and I think you need to have this in the agreement as rehab could be a nightmare especially if the horse is just on loan. You wouldn't want to be bound to continuing after a daignosis for something serious.

 

[Zebedee]

I have a couple of homebreds out on full loan. They are both fully insured by me, and the deal is that the loanees treat them as their own and can do as they please with them other than sell them. Because of the very high calibre of riders I have loaned to I have also helped with the routine bills. The people who loan from me also have total assurance that I wouldn't sell the horse out from underneath them, so we don't have the nasty situation of someone putting a lot of work in to horse only for the owner to take it back and sell it.

 

[Laura2013]

Woops lot less concerned about it. It would more be my concern in a short term situation where it would be going back in 6 months that there would have to be a contingency plan if the horse couldnt be ridden for most of that period, for whatever reason.

Anyway, I think in hindsight it was the lack of owner involvement that was causing the niggle in my mind as it seems to make the situation a bit more complicated.

 

[Orangehorse]

This is why you need to sit down and consider "what if?" and write it into the loan agreement. I have both had horses on loan and put a horse out to loan, with 100% success rate from both sides, but you really need to think of worst case, and discuss them. Sometimes the sheets of paper that was the loan agreement looked over the top, but at least we knew where we stood. My loanee "forgot" to have my horse vaccinated, so she had to pay for the whole lot of flu and tetnus, but she did so with good grace. I charged her half the cost of insurace as she was doing a good job taking the horse out and about that I couldn't do at the time.

That is why I said that the OWNER should insure the horse, and get the loaner to pay the premiums, so you know the horse has cover as far as possible. At one time I thought it was impossible to insure something that you don't own (no legal interest) but apparently non owners can insure horses, but as above, the danger is that the horse doesn't get insured.

 

[Laura2013]

I agree with this and I think you need to have this in the agreement as rehab could be a nightmare especially if the horse is just on loan. You wouldn't want to be bound to continuing after a daignosis for something serious.

It's this really- the rehab only to have to give it back... Be different if the loan was permanent I think.

 

[Booboos]

If my loan horse got injured and it was my fault - i would deal with it (he is insured for vets bills) and not send him back.
However if say i found out he had e.g. kissing spines (they dont seem to develop over night) then yes i would consider sending him back. I pay for his insurance (he was only insured 3rd party before i got him) and the insurance is in my name (they know I loan him & have a copy of the agreement). If he were to go back with a chronic long standing injury which has only recently surfaced and not a fault of my own, then I'd be obliged to let his owner use the vet fee cover I pay for him to have (so long as they pay any extras)

So what if your loan horse did his tendon in while you were riding him and the damage was irreparable? Would you retire him for life?

Or what if you had the loan horse for 3 years and in that time it developped KS, would you pay for the operation and lengthy rehab?

 

[MS123]

I have my girl on full loan and I pay for her insurance, and everything else. I guess it's a risk on both sides in terms of loanee giving horse back if horse breaks, or owner taking horse back when he/she feels like it. Who covers/pays what should be discussed and included in the loan contract.

I am in it for the long run with my girl. I treat her as if she was my own and I intend to keep her until she ends her days... and that means covering anything/everything in-between.

 

[GrumpyHero]

So what if your loan horse did his tendon in while you were riding him and the damage was irreparable? Would you retire him for life?

Or what if you had the loan horse for 3 years and in that time it developped KS, would you pay for the operation and lengthy rehab?

I have him insured that would (hopefully) cover any operations/treatment needed. If i'm honest no i'm not sure what I would do if he blew a tendon whilst I was riding him.
I love him to pieces and treat him as my own horse. I pay for everything for him and don't have a lot of contact from his owners. To say what I'd do in any of those situations right now probably wouldn't reflect my real decision if put in that situation. Right now I'm thinking with my head, but if it ever did come to it my heart would probably take over.

Though I suppose these are the risks taken with loaning - his owner could take him back at any given time against my wishes, or he could get injured whilst with me and then the option would be there for me to return him to his owners (not saying I'd do that - but others would)

 

[Clodagh]

I haven't read all the pages but I would expect, as an owner, that the horse would become my problem if he became long term lame or ill. A horse could do his tendon while being ridden by anyone, it just happens, so assuming generally that I liked and trusted the loaner I would just accept that **** happens.

 

[Maesfen]

tbh I would run a mile from a loaner who didn't accept this as part of horse ownership - the potential for injuries. if he does a tendon/needs colic surgery a lot of owners would end up footing the bill but if it happens in your care the rule is it's generally up to you to sort out.

Absolutely. You can't loan a horse and as soon as it's damaged laugh and say, tough luck mate, it's your horse. It happened on your watch and you should sort it.

At the same time, if mine go out on loan, I pay the insurance but the loaner is liable for the excess and to cover routine things like vacc's.

 

[MissTyc]

It's something that is negotiable in every instance, surely?

E.g. I loaned a mare for dressage. I did not want her as a pet, I did not want her as a hack, I own several horses that have a home for life. She was not one of them. Owner was aware of this. Mare went badly lame after 8 years together - called owner, we took her to the vet clinic together, chatted with the vet together. Insurance paid for the treatment, I paid the excess. I kept her for 6 months paddock rest, I rehabbed her over another 4 months, I got her sound, I sent her home and the owner knows not to push her and is keeping her as a hacking horse for herself now (which would not have been possible 9 years ago as mare was sharp when she was younger).

Had she not come sound owner would have to have made the decision - take her home and keep her as pet or let me have her put down. Doesn't make me a bad person, as it was all transparent from the very beginning. I would never have "dumped" her back on the owner and I did my best to send her home sound, but I certainly wasn't going to keep her!

 

[Honey08]

I think a loan horse should be looked after and paid for by a loaner if the horse sustains an injury while with them. I would never send a horse back simply due to an injury unless the injury was going to be forever and the horse would never come right. Even so, I would feel morally responsible for the first few months of care at the very least. If the horse develops something like kissing spines I would think the horse should be taken back by the owner. When you loan a horse out you have to expect that the horse could come back at any point and may develop things that mean it may never be able to be loaned out again.

I once loaned out a pony that turned out to have cancer. This was years and years ago when people didn't often insure. The loaners initially paid for the treatment when the horse was injured due to a kick, however when the next injury reacted the same way and it was further investigated and found to be something more serious, the pony naturally came home to me (he was soon PTS as the cancer was not treatable) and I gave the loaner money towards some of the huge bills she had been paying.

ps. posted at the same time as MissTyc but that's the sort of thing I mean - both parties being clear of the expectations, the loaner helping with the initial care of injured horse for a few months, then the owner sensibly taking the horse back. Hopefully you all ended up happy with the way things worked out. That's how I would have wanted a loan with an injured horse to go.

 

[mel_s]

Absolutely. You can't loan a horse and as soon as it's damaged laugh and say, tough luck mate, it's your horse. It happened on your watch and you should sort it.

This is it - and some people do have that attitude.

Obviously if i loaned a horse out and it got injured i wouldnt expect them to keep it as a retired pet for the next 20 years if it was something that couldnt be fixed. However - i'd expect them to rehab the horse and try to get it back into work (as you would if it were your own) if it was something that required that. Not just dump it on your doorstep the next day and leave you to deal with it.

This isnt what the OP is suggesting though and i think shes right to ask questions. Really as said above - talking to the owner and having a good contract is the only way to sort it.

 

[Marydoll]

I have a horse on loan. The owner insures him and pays the premiums. I pay for any small vets bills and routine stuff. Anything bigger is claimed on the insurance and I pay the first £90 of the claim (the excess). I would not consider having a horse on loan if the owner did not keep up the insurance payments.

I have a very similar agreement with my horse i have on loan, but i also have drawn into the loan that if he becomes unsound longterm, he goes back to his owner

 

[Holidays_are_coming]

I went to look at a horse on loan and the contract said that if anything happened to him long term I would have to pay her £4000 whatever it was and not be able to give him back. I said no thanks apparently she has lots out on loan with a similar contract but I quickly said no thanks

 

[Clodagh]

I went to look at a horse on loan and the contract said that if anything happened to him long term I would have to pay her £4000 whatever it was and not be able to give him back. I said no thanks apparently she has lots out on loan with a similar contract but I quickly said no thanks

OMG! That is mad.

 

[Booboos]

I have him insured that would (hopefully) cover any operations/treatment needed. If i'm honest no i'm not sure what I would do if he blew a tendon whilst I was riding him.
I love him to pieces and treat him as my own horse. I pay for everything for him and don't have a lot of contact from his owners. To say what I'd do in any of those situations right now probably wouldn't reflect my real decision if put in that situation. Right now I'm thinking with my head, but if it ever did come to it my heart would probably take over.

Though I suppose these are the risks taken with loaning - his owner could take him back at any given time against my wishes, or he could get injured whilst with me and then the option would be there for me to return him to his owners (not saying I'd do that - but others would)

I was trying to suggest that your distinction between an injury that was 'your fault' and a long standing injury is not as clear cut as you may like. A tendon injury can happen when you are riding any horse and the rider doesn't need to do anything terrible to cause it, just bad luck. It can also take months to come right or it can affect the horse for life. At the same time KS may be caused by poor ridding so it can be 'the fault' of the loaner.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

It's this really- the rehab only to have to give it back... Be different if the loan was permanent I think.

There's no such thing as a permanent loan. That may be the intention when the loan is first sorted, but in reality the horses owner could take it back at any time and there's nothing you can do to stop them.