Full loaning issues with owner

[Thedarksideofthemoon]

We are full loaning a cob atm, she’s been moved to a livery closer to us and we pay for everything. When we first met her and the owner she was very skinny, had no grass or hay and it was obvious her owner was struggling. She’s 10 and still very green. Had never cantered, lunged etc. I hired a trainer and within two lessons she was galloping across a field living her best life! We bought her food, hay and grass. She fell in love with my daughter and started trusting us so much. We would go every day and her owner would go once a week. When the owner was there the horse would play up for her, but never for us bevause she knew she wasn’t allowed to barge us etc (she had no ground manners!)

anyway fast forward, owner asked if we wanted to full loan and we said yes (we actually wanted to buy!). She’s moving to her new place soon and the owner said yesterday that she still wants to come and hang out with us/the horse at the new place because she feels like she can enjoy her without the stress and worry of doing anything. I don’t know what to do. We adore the horse and I feel like she can have an amazing new life (she’s currently a field ornament) but I don’t want to be paying £130+ a month and feel like she’s not “ours”.
we moved her to the new place (she had to
Move anyway), but I know if we walked away the owner wouldn’t afford it with everything else. I don’t want to walk away as I can see she has something amazing and obviously I understand she’s her horse etc

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

I'm not quite clear on the issue/question here but I think if you're going to full loan you need to get a proper written agreement (i.e., using the BHS template) so everything is clearly laid out for expectations on both sides. I think it wouldn't be unusual for an owner to visit a horse on loan. Sound like your question is of how often is reasonable?

Have you made an offer to buy?

 

[Pmf27]

My take on this is that, as it would still be a loan, then the owner has every right to still visit their horse.

That said, it sounds as though the owner is essentially passing all the costs on to you and treating herself as the loaner. I.e. you pay for everything because it's a full loan, but she still gets to go and enjoy the horse.

I'd definitely ask her what her expectations are in terms of how often she wants to visit, because for a full loan I'd not expect anything beyond maybe a couple of times a month? Just as a 'checking in' type visit.

 

[Gloi]

She's not 'yours' she still belongs to her owner. If you want ful control buy a horse. I don't blame the owner if she wants weekly visits as so many horses on loan disappear etc.
Is the £130 a month to the owner on top of your livery costs because that is more of a lease than a loan and I'd be expecting a more trained horse to do that.

 

[JBM]

When my horse was on loan I would often visit her and come groom her occasionally and just chill in her field with her
But always with advanced notice and I never rode her while she was on full loan but the loaner did offer
Wouldn’t have even asked if she didn’t offer as I didn’t think it would be fair to offer a full loan then ride her when I wanted..that’s more of a share in my opinion

 

[Melody Grey]

Is the owner aware you wish to buy? I’d fast track to that option if I were you (subject to price and vetting). Sounds like the owner could otherwise be a bit of a control freak. Then reassess and present what you think is reasonable if that’s not happening for whatever reason.

 

[Thedarksideofthemoon]

She won’t sell but said if she decides we will have first refusal.

the £130 is straight to the livery, then we pay for her teeth etc. pay nothing to the owner.

the thing is the owner said when we first met horse that she would just be a plod along, she’s never trotted and wouldn’t even walk unless someone was walking next to her. She had been backed but not broken and still green. I bought a trainer in (owner was happy) and she’s now cantering, trotting and lunging happily. Once she loves she will have a school to work in too.
The owner is lovely, I know she probably won’t cancel the contract because we have more of a disposable income so can afford the livery etc where as I think she may struggle. Where she is atm she’s there for free as a friend is helping her but friend wants the field back so we are kind of helping each other.
I’m more than happy for her to vist as much as she wants but i don’t want our hard work to be undone, like she will let her barge into her and everything where as she’s not allowed to wirh us

 

[southerncomfort]

The owner obviously cares very much about her horse. Most horses go on full loan because the owner doesn't want to lose the horse completely. Very few horses on full loan are eventually sold to the loaner.

Your daughter has a wonderful horse to ride that you haven't had to pay a purchase price for and is having the most fantastic summer. I'm not sure why the owner visiting is an issue. She really isn't going to undo any training while she's there and it is her horse at the end of the day.

 

[Ambers Echo]

It sounds like you feel the owner isn’t up to the task of looking after or training the horse who has thrived in your care. That may well be true but the fact is the horse is not yours. He’s hers. So she can set whatever loan terms she wants. She has every right to visit and if she does she will also have the right to handle her horse.

The £130 doesn’t give you the right to view the horse as yours. It gives you the right to look after him/ for as long as the owner wants you to. You need to recognise you have no control in this situation.

Also owner is highly unlikely to view the situation the same way you do. In fact Id be very careful about how much you say on here : the horse world is a very small place and and she was aware you had such a dim view of her skills, management and care, she may end the loan. I certainly would if my loaner was basically saying online that I was pretty useless and needed to butt out - in relation to MY horse!

 

[AmyMay]

I would be very clear to the owner about what your expectations of the loan are. The horse will be 100% in your care, financially and in terms of management. You appreciate that the owner will want a monthly visit. But you would not appreciate any more than that.

 

[sport horse]

I would be careful that if yoa school and improve the horse, that the owner, who you admit is struggling financially, does not then decide to sell for a lot more money because of your input. Perhaps a loan, with view to buy, contract at a price to be agreed now and written into contract?

 

[ihatework]

What does the owner expect to do at the weekly visit?
I’d probably try and extend the duration of that interval now they know and trust you (weekly fine in early days but shouldn’t be necessary long term), and also make sure visits are 10 min welfare checks - they aren’t for her to ride or anything like that. And I’d deffo get a value written into a loan contract up front.

 

[honetpot]

I have a cob out on loan, who had done very little, and if I saw your post written by the loaner, I would be collecting it in the trailer. Over the years we have loaned out or shared most of our under used animals, and one of the pleasures is seeing them out with their foster family. What you see as improvement may be only your way of looking at it, one persons idea of well fed, may worry some else trying to prevent laminitis in the future. Half the Highland ponies I see I think are too fat, and I am sure my yearling would be classed as underweight by some.
You need a proper loan agreement, and to discuss things openly, if you resent the owner visiting so much, is it really working for you?

 

[Winters100]

My take on this is that you have a great deal, you get to use the horse as you wish, without any upfront cost for purchase, plus you have the luxury of being a position to hand her back in case of a serious injury or illness, or in case of your daughter losing interest. In your position I would not feel that I could limit the visits from the owner, and if I were the owner I would be very insulted if asked to give a written right of first refusal at a pre-agreed price - why would anyone agree to that?

As Honetpot says there are many different takes on the weight of horses. I know this as I have in the past been accused of keeping mine 'too skinny', when in fact my vet and I both see them as fit and in great condition.

I would say enjoy the horse, and try to ta view visits from the owner as a positive thing.

 

[mariew]

I'd try to buy it for many reasons if I was you. Sounds like a great fit.

 

[nagblagger]

You may find the owner is afraid to 'finally let go', how long has she owned it? The visits may become less frequent as she gradually accepts the horse being with someone else.
However i would agree to a purchase price now because if she wants to sell later on, with all your hard work, the value of the horse could be considerably more.

 

[ponynutz]

I would also try buy but I don't see any problem with the situation to be honest - I'd expect to see mine if on full loan although I'd probably also be giving some monetary help.

 

[Starzaan]

One of my horses is currently out on loan whilst I am recovering from major surgery following an accident, as he is too quirky to be left unridden. I’m afraid if I saw a post like yours about him I would be collecting him pretty sharpish.

This is not your horse. Remember even if you think the owner is not capable of handling the horse, as others have said, she may feel her horse is now running heavier than she would like.

I drop in on my horse unannounced because I want to make sure the contract is being adhered to. He is my horse. If I want to make changes, I will. I stepped in recently and reminded the loaner that he is never to be ridden in a flash, and I had noticed a photo of him wearing one on social media. All friendly, but he’s my horse, if I don’t want him in a flash then he’s not wearing a flash. The same with his diet. He is fed something different to all the others on the loaners yard, but I know it works for him and I stipulated it in the contract. He’s my horse, I still have ultimate control over what happens with him.

My suggestion would be to buy a horse so you don’t have this worry.

 

[Goldie's mum]

owner asked if we wanted to full loan and we said yes (we actually wanted to buy!). .......but I don’t want to be paying £130+ a month and feel like she’s not “ours”.

Full loan is still a loan. What you are paying for is the right to ride whenever you please, rather than at certain arranged times and to be the only rider. Other than that you have no more "power" over what happens to the horse than you had as a part-loaner. Her owner can visit her and could end the loan & take her back at any time. Of course you also have the advantage that you can send the horse back if it becomes lame, you are ill, your financial circumstances change etc and you haven't parted with the 4 figure sum she would have cost you to buy. If for you, the advantages of loaning don't outweigh the lack of control then maybe you are someone who needs to think of buying?

 

[LadyGascoyne]

I think you might be better to step away from this situation, and buy you and your daughter your own horse.

Everything that you’ve written says that you’re looking for a horse to invest time and effort into, and to treat as your own.

It’s also clear that the owner of this particular horse does not want to part with her horse and wants to retain input in a loan situation.

In these situations, where both parties clearly want something different from the situation, complications often arise.

I’d skip to the bit where it doesn’t work, save yourself a lot of pain and money and go shopping for your own horse.

 

[JBM]

I don’t want to be paying £130+ a month and feel like she’s not “ours”.

this sentence confuses me..you’re paying the 130 a month because you’re loaning a horse..which means she isn’t yours..a horse costs 4 figures AND 130 a month
So she shouldn’t feel like “yours” because she’s not..if I was loaning my horse out and someone said Judy was their horse..I’d be put off

 

[Winters100]

You may find the owner is afraid to 'finally let go', how long has she owned it? The visits may become less frequent as she gradually accepts the horse being with someone else.
However i would agree to a purchase price now because if she wants to sell later on, with all your hard work, the value of the horse could be considerably more.

But if you owned the horse why would you agree to do this?

 

[Ambers Echo]

But if you owned the horse why would you agree to do this?

Quite! Similarly, why would you agree to restrictions on visiting and on what you were allowed to do while visiting your own horse. The OP is in no position to lay down terms. She may be able to agree terms by negotiation but the horse is not hers.

Loans only really work well when both parties feel they are getting a good deal. Party A gets a free horse and no long term responsibility. Party B gets good quality care for their horse at no or reduced cost to them. Win/win. But as LG says if you have different expectations then it won’t work.

 

[emilylou]

Unfortunately it is up to you how much time and money and investment you would like to put into a horse that you don’t own.
The risk with a loan is that the owner has full ownership and say about what happens and has the authority to take the horse back at any time
The benefit is that the horse is free.
If you are happy with your current arrangement carry on, if you’re not then you need to talk to the horses owner or end the arrangement

 

[nagblagger]

I was writing from another perspective, a friend needed to put a horse she was very attached to on loan. She was heart broken, the loaners initially kept it at the yard, but then moved with the horse. She visited regularly but then less frequently as she realised that it was a brilliant home. If the loaners now approached her her I am sure she would sell to them. We don't know why the owner wanted a loaner or the sentiment behind it. Unfortunately there are emotions on both sides for this horse.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Yes I agree there are lots of differnt reasons to loan. And sometimes it's a stepping stone to selling. But in this case the owner has said she likes hanging out with her horse without the time pressures - and it sounds like finances are an issue too. So for her, the loan allows her to enjoy relaxed time with her horse without the expense and the stress. If that is not ok with the OP then the loan probably won't suit her and she needs to save up to buy her own.

Lots of loaners stipulate horse must stay on current yard - and loaners in those situations often have another horse on the yard and are there every day. Lottie's current sharer full loaned a horse before Lottie whose owner had health issues. Owner saw the horse every day and adored him. My friend never ever regarded him as 'hers' even though she put a huge amount of time and effort into training him. He was a trotter who had done a lot of racing and was still super, super green. She took him all over the country to camps and clinics. She felt very lucky the owner allowed her to do that! It did not make her think 'Ive put all the work in and improved the horse so I have rights now'.

 

[Thedarksideofthemoon]

I think my messages came across wrong ? let me start again.

owner is lovely and we have hit it off well. Originally we were semi loaning but just paying for her feed/medication etc as where she was there was no cost. She’s now moved to a livery closer to us and we will be paying that plus extra costs. Absolutely no problem at all, we are lucky to be on a position to do so.
i have shouted from the roof tops at how I know this horse has something special lol, the owner is amazed at the difference in her and is so so happy. Horse is more confident and trusts my daughter 100%.
I have absolutely no issues with owner coming to chill at the yard with said horse. I know she isn’t “ours” but we have had a discussion about her technically being “ours” while on loan. We treat her as if she’s “ours” etc without the first cost of her, which we would be happy to pay if she decided to sell in the future. She has said we would get first refusal. She joked she would sell her for £6k when we first met but trainer thinks no more than £2.5 as she is very green still. So as people said getting a price now would be good.
We do love her, but I think that’s a good thing. It means her needs and Health are our priority.
i tell owner alot that I appreciate that she trusts us with her baby, and she said she feels very confident with us.

 

[JBM]

I may be completely wrong but 2.5k seems cheap for a horse that is safe to have around kids? And had the potential you have gotten from her
In the current market but I’ve never bought a horse like this so I wouldn’t be the law on that ?

 

[Thedarksideofthemoon]

I think for a green older cob type horse 2.5k isn’t that cheap. And kids? My daughter is 16 x

 

[JBM]

I think for a green older cob type horse 2.5k isn’t that cheap. And kids? My daughter is 16 x

Oh sorry! You only said daughter
My bad ?