Future evolution of horses

[maggiestar]

I was thinking the other day of how the Assateague horses evolved over a few short hundreds of years to cope with their sandy environment (shorter pasterns and slight changes in diet)
It got me wondering if domestic horses will evolve in the future to be less flighty. After all, humans are their protectors and the two species have entered a kind of mutually beneficial pact as we have with dogs. Is that wishful thinking?!

 

[Abacus]

Only if we breed selectively for that trait, which we sometimes do but more commonly favour movement and jumping ability. It would be quite nice if breeders focussed on ordinary all-round non-spooky bloodlines for the average amateur.

 

[maggiestar]

Wouldn't that be nice! Selective breeding aside, do you think there will ever come a time in say a thousand years when horses realise they don't need to be so alert to danger? I suppose if that ever happened they would use that extra brain power for something else... Doesn't bear thinking about actually!

 

[LadyGascoyne]

I suspect they would become more flighty, not less. We no longer expect them to go to war or act as transport, or even take them out of safe, contained environments very often.

We breed from flighty animals because being a steady useful working animal is no longer a priority characteristic.

 

[Abacus]

Wouldn't that be nice! Selective breeding aside, do you think there will ever come a time in say a thousand years when horses realise they don't need to be so alert to danger? I suppose if that ever happened they would use that extra brain power for something else... Doesn't bear thinking about actually!

This isn’t really how evolution works. If an animal has a trait that makes it more likely to survive to reproductive age, they pass that trait on and so it becomes more common. The way we breed them, we choose the ones to breed from based on ability or other characteristics. So any change in their characteristics would have to be driven by human choice of which animals to breed, not horses figuring out that they don’t need to spook.

Technically you’re talking about Lamark’s theory of evolution, in which animals changed and then that trait was passed on - like the story of how the elephant got his trunk! The version I described above is Darwin’s theory which is broadly accepted as true, unless you’re a creationist…

 

[Cortez]

Being flight animals is a primary characteristic of grazing animals, I doubt if it would be possible to entirely breed it out.

 

[maggiestar]

I suspect they would become more flighty, not less. We no longer expect them to go to war or act as transport, or even take them out of safe, contained environments very often.

We breed from flighty animals because being useful is no longer a priority characteristic.

That's a good point. The more they have to focus on work the less time they have to worry about tigers etc. I remember a brilliant lesson on a young gelding who kept spooking in one particular corner for no apparent reason so we did lots of lateral work and I could almost 'sense' him thinking if that makes sense. He settled very quickly just because he had something to do.

 

[ihatework]

Only if we breed selectively for that trait, which we sometimes do but more commonly favour movement and jumping ability. It would be quite nice if breeders focussed on ordinary all-round non-spooky bloodlines for the average amateur.

Id love to.

Would all these amateurs be willing to spend a minimum of 15k for a quietly done and not over-produced/competed 5yo?

Unfortunately , not enough to be worth the 6 years of investment and work ?

 

[LEC]

Id love to.

Would all these amateurs be willing to spend a minimum of 15k for a quietly done and not over-produced/competed 5yo?

Unfortunately , not enough to be worth the 6 years of investment and work ?

Exactly…. Quality either way = £££

 

[Abacus]

Id love to.

Would all these amateurs be willing to spend a minimum of 15k for a quietly done and not over-produced/competed 5yo?

Unfortunately , not enough to be worth the 6 years of investment and work ?

Totally appreciate this point. I wasn’t implying that these horses should be widely available at a low price.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

This is why a Mimosa is perfect for a non-competitive amateur. I could ride her into war, pick up my groceries, round up some cattle and also do a dressage clinic.

I love her type so much but they are hard to find without pretty colours which sometimes comes at the expense of conformation, and often adds to the price tag.

 

[cauda equina]

And yet Arabs are still not popular choices as all rounders; away from showing or endurance they tend to be seen as neurotic and needy, which isn't the case at all

 

[Cortez]

And yet Arabs are still not popular choices as all rounders; away from showing or endurance they tend to be seen as neurotic and needy, which isn't the case at all

No, not at all, but Arabs do tend to be sensitive and they pick up on their owners feelings, so if you're nervous they can be nervous too. I'm very fond of Arabs and their crosses, but not always suitable for beginners or nervy people.

 

[Orangehorse]

I think that is why some American breeds are popular, they have been bred to be more co-operative towards their humans. I dare say that anything that wasn't got a bullet.

In UK/Europe we are far more obsessed with performance and competition and in my youth there were shows and show jumping and eventing in the summer and hunting in the winter. Really the "leisure" rider hardly existed.

Then the warmbloods for show jumping and then dressage became popular, they were bred to meet a need on the continent. There were a small pioneer warmblood studs in the UK, but mostly people either wanted something from Ireland for competitions and hunting or went to get a dressage horse from Germany.

I have posted before that until fairly recently the choice in this country was a Native Pony x TB for a small family horse but there was no consistency as to what was bred. Even the larger native breeds can be quite a handful as they are spirited and the larger ones would have been used for farm work and worked hard. As for the competition horses, if they didn't make the grade they were sold on to amateur riders.

I fully realise that this is a generalisation and that there have been utter saints of children's ponies, larger native ponies and crosses - but they tended to be more or less luck, not by a dedicated breeding programme.

I am not a fan of the vanner cobs used as riding horses as they are perceived as quiet cobs (go and hide behind behind the sofa!!). So what to buy for the rider with no great competition ambitions?

That is why 20+ years ago I made a choice to buy a Morgan, as I wanted something a bit quieter to take into my old age and I was getting a bit tired of TBs and the TB crosses that I evented and hunted in my youth. With 3 children I didn't want a horse that needed to be ridden every day to keep it civilized.

So that is why I bought a Morgan horse. I first came across the breed when one lived in a garden across the road from my school driveway, that had been imported from the USA. It was just when the first studs of Morgans were being established.

My horse is very aimiable, he isn't a plod, he can be spirited, but he is always helpful and always has the attitude of "what are we doing today?"

 

[LadyGascoyne]

And yet Arabs are still not popular choices as all rounders; away from showing or endurance they tend to be seen as neurotic and needy, which isn't the case at all

I think the fashion for showing them all fired up by waving things in their faces, and the trend towards very fine types is an issue. They all look demented.

 

[Starzaan]

I think it also really depends what kind of education they get. I worked in Mexico for a year, and have been on a riding holiday with Hollywoozle's company there too. The horses there are just expected to get on with it. They don't spook, not even at fireworks going off in the middle of the day next to them. It honestly strikes me a lot that we simply put up with a lot more than a lot of people will deem acceptable.

 

[cauda equina]

I think the fashion for showing them all fired up by waving things in their faces, and the trend towards very fine types is an issue. They all look demented.

They do, but so would any horse if you flapped a plastic bag at it!

 

[blitznbobs]

Having begun to work in the field of therapy horses it is not about breeding so much as training…. A hot horse can learn not to be spooky and wild but responsive and safe … it doesnt even take long to do — i am planning to train all of my youngsters in this method before teaching them their dressage role in the hope of producing really quality safe horses for the middle aged woman market

 

[blitznbobs]

They do, but so would any horse if you flapped a plastic bag at it!

Not if they are trained not to

 

[Starzaan]

Having begun to work in the field of therapy horses it is not about breeding so much as training…. A hot horse can learn not to be spooky and wild but responsive and safe … it doesnt even take long to do — i am planning to train all of my youngsters in this method before teaching them their dressage role in the hope of producing really quality safe horses for the middle aged woman market

Yep. I used to manage a therapeutic riding centre. I got many funny looks from ramblers watching me trotting round the outdoor on a range of horses, bouncing a beach ball off their necks, and singing ‘she’ll be coming round the mountain’ at the top of my lungs.

Good people make good horses. Anna Sewell was right.

 

[ycbm]

Technically you’re talking about Lamark’s theory of evolution, in which animals changed and then that trait was passed on - like the story of how the elephant got his trunk! The version I described above is Darwin’s theory which is broadly accepted as true, unless you’re a creationist…

Both are true to an extent. Darwinian theory produces changes by mutation in the DNA. But Lamarckian change can also happen, applying epigenetic markers which turn down, turn off or turn up the production of proteins by various parts of the DNA. Epigenetic changes can also be passed down the generations.
.

 

[Abacus]

Both are true to an extent. Darwinian theory produces changes by mutation in the DNA. But Lamarckian change can also happen, applying epigenetic markers which turn down, turn off or turn up the production of proteins by various parts of the DNA. Epigenetic changes can also be passed down the generations.
.

This is still Darwinian. The ability to alter protein production (as encoded in DNA) is an advantageous trait and is hereditable, hence leading to the evolution of species. Lamarck’s theory was not about this as it wasn’t understood at that time.

 

[ycbm]

This is still Darwinian. The ability to alter protein production (as encoded in DNA) is an advantageous trait and is hereditable, hence leading to the evolution of species. Lamarck’s theory was not about this as it wasn’t understood at that time.

Apologies if this is teaching granny to suck eggs.

Lamarck was about adaptation to the environment in a way other than by random gene mutation and that is exactly what epigenetics does. It's not the ability to alter protein production that I'm talking about being heritable, it's the actual acetylisation and methylisation of individual parts of the genome, which can be passed down the generations to affect the way the genes work without any change to the DNA sequence.

Lamarck didn't know it existed at the time of his theory, but that's not the point.
.

 

[Gloi]

Not breeding from horses with undesirable genetic problems would be a good start.
Some breed societies have made a start like the Fells and Connemara but how many horses are out there now in TB lines with C6/C7 mutations because their ancestors were fast? Plus horses bred for colour that breed in problems especially when homozygous.

 

[SadKen]

You will end up with three distinct types 500 years from now.

a totally elastic hyper mobile beautiful warm blood perhaps with some Welsh D lunacy somewhere that only 1% of riders can ride and which has a useful lifespan of 8 years (but what an 8 years!)

Something around 15hh, cob x connie in appearance since those two are the rideable types

a miniature Shetland cross section A. The pleasanter ones will be kids ponies, the evil ones will be companions.

that’s if the general public are still allowed horses and they haven’t been banned for our own ‘safety’, animal cruelty reasons or global warming.

 

[Art Nouveau]

Having begun to work in the field of therapy horses it is not about breeding so much as training…. A hot horse can learn not to be spooky and wild but responsive and safe … it doesnt even take long to do — i am planning to train all of my youngsters in this method before teaching them their dressage role in the hope of producing really quality safe horses for the middle aged woman market

I must remember to keep an eye out in 2-3 years time when my little children are old enough for me to start thinking about getting a horse again. I expect I'll need to start saving now as well!

 

[shortstuff99]

Just to be a genetic nerd, but all traits can be passed on. Darwin's theory was about animals with better genetic fitness being more successful at passing on traits, but bad traits can still persist. Pandas anyone?

Epigenetics is the heritability of changes in phenotypic expression without a subsequent genetic mutation.