Futurity 2012 Rules

eventrider23

eventrider23

Well-Known Member
Joined
22 April 2006
Messages
4,525
Location
Sussex
Visit site
Seeing as entries open for the futurity in less than a week I was wondering what people's feeling are on the new rules. I am basing this question on the 'proposed' rules put forward last year and on the suppositions that we have all deduced seeing as even though the start of the series is almost upon us, the actual official rules have yet to be released for the new changes....

I posted this in response to a different thread but felt maybe it detracts from that post too much and so started it separately. How do people feel about the changes? I know many will have strong opinions on the subject so maybe we can start a bit of debate on it and people's opinions on the changes, etc....

I really disagree with the new ruling of 'only graded stallions' as feel it is very elitest and only a short step away from them insisting that all mares must be graded as well which whilst of course in an ideal world would be great and indeed I am sure works in other countries, is just not feasible here in UK as things stand.

Take a look at leading sires in previous years....Kings Composer and Future Illusion have been the top sires in the rankings and when they were in that position neither was graded at that time. Does that mean their progeny from before they were graded are of lesser quality than they are now? Their are many stallions that have appeared in the rankings and results as sires who were not graded and that didn't make their progeny any less quality...indeed look at the great Irish eventing sires...they weren't graded and it didn't stop them producing great stock.

I have no problem in theory with the futurity trying to raise its standards however think it should be done in phases. Instead of a blanket 'no ungraded stallions from 2012' ruling maybe (and yes i have suggested this to them directly as have others) the ruling that there are no NEW foals by ungraded stallions from 2012 however anyone who has presented progeny last year or before is still eligible up until they are 3 yr olds or something similar. I feel it is a bit of a slap in the face to those that say had a 1st premium youngster last year by an ungraded stallion....and this year that youngster is no longer 'good enough' to go on in the scheme. Does that mean that whilst yes last year it was good enough to warrant a 1st Premium but now it isn't? Or that the owner's money which has gone to support the evaluations in previous years is no longer good enough?

I think it is a very good way of alienating entries. After all look at some of the successes....
- Zubin R was a record holding Futurity entry scoring a perfect 10 as a 3 yr old....in that same year he had his first foal presented (Caruso-R) who also went 1st Premium. Whilst yes now Zubin R is graded....he wasn't then....that foal would now have been ineligible to enter. Does that mean it isn't good enough?

- Springfield Symphony is another. In the same year as Zubin he was the 3rd highest overall score....he is not a graded stallion but NTR I think....his foals I think have all pretty much gone 1st Premium and yet none are now eligible.

- Amour G is another. His sire Goshka Ringo is ungraded...yet Amour G remains the ONLY horse to achieve an ELITE premium in 2 disciplines in the same year....and then went on to be Champion of his grading and now competing incredibly well BD. Yet he would not have been eligible with this new system and we would have lost the initial chance to see this horse shine. Ringo has also had many other 1st Premium progeny over the years.

- Furst Opera - from the same year as Zubin and Springfield Symphony this was again another incredibly high scoring colt. World class pedigree he himself is not graded but his progeny that have gone forward to futurity have themselves achieved 1st Premiums. Surely it is a good thing to see progeny coming forward by successful previous candidates that themselves have scored well?

- Arkan, a son of Arko III is not graded and his progeny till now have achieved 1st Premiums. Arkan is now standing at stud in Ireland and is the full brother to the mare Lillibet who represented GB at the YH Championships in Belgium.

- Hej Kuba is another sire...ungraded and yet his progeny have been successful in futurity with rather a lot of 1st Premiums.

I am not saying we should encourage using ungraded stallions and not saying that all the above are ones I would use but the choice is down to the breeder. Of course we should strive for the best in all ways and as it has shown over the years the majority of foals presented are indeed by graded stallions. HOWEVER surely if progeny by an ungraded stallion is presented, its quality will come out in the wash as they say and if it is found to be substandard then the results will reflect this...thereby allowing the owners the chance to show off their much loved youngster and have it assessed independently. If it is good then the results will indicate as such and likewise if it scores poorly. After all, I am sure there are many many graded sires that will have low scoring youngstock as a grading certificate is no way of defining that the horse will be a good sire or indeed that every foal will be top class...I am sure there are instances of a top scoring sire with Elite stock also at same time siring one that doesn't score so well!
 
One additional thought to add....what is the definition of 'graded' stallion? If it means only WBFSH graded stallions then that rules out a lot of others such as any progeny by the likes of coloured stallions such as Sempers Spirit, Stormhill Mink and many many others grade by societies such as CHAPS, etc.
 
Sorry SN, not seen your other post yet. I thought that KC had been graded after 2007...my mistake sorry. Knew he was graded now - just thought he hadn't been then. I know Dalcotes other boys hadn't been graded - not that it has stopped them doing very well!
 
Im finding it all a bit confusing if Im honest. Ive looked at the site, read things Ive been linked to, and Im still not 100% on it all. Filly is by a graded ID stallion.
 
Meant to add SN that I know your KC boy had an invaluable part to play in KC getting his leading sire award. But then look at the flip side that your boys fabulous splodgy Ringo half sister would now not be eligible even if she was under 3....which I do think considering the quality of Matilda and other Ringo youngsters is such a shame!
 
I 100% agree with everything said in OP. I have used graded stallions, premium scheme stallions and ungraded stallions. I have graded mares and ungraded mares. I always try to breed the best I possibly can for the discipline the foal is being aimed at, carefully selecting a stallion to suit a particular mare. The job of the futurity evaluations in my opinion is to score the animal In front of you. Not influence a breeders decisions.
I can be a cynical old bat on occasion, but I do have to wonder where the benefits of this ruling will be, because I don't think it will neccessarily be the quality of future performance stock. Maybe more the books of certain stallions.
Let's be honest, some gradings are little more than a group of people's opinion. Pretty much the same as the futurity.
Lots of people breed with the futurity in mind, it has become an important event for youngstock evaluation. This ruling will be a bad day for performance breeding.
In my opinion, not only should it be dropped but I would like to see a different ruling. Whereby the young horse should be evaluated entirely on it's own merit, to the point of it's parentage being undisclosed. Totally unworkable I imagine in this day and age of corruption, but it's what I would like to see in fair and square evaluation of an animal.
 
eventrider23 said:
Meant to add SN that I know your KC boy had an invaluable part to play in KC getting his leading sire award. But then look at the flip side that your boys fabulous splodgy Ringo half sister would now not be eligible even if she was under 3....which I do think considering the quality of Matilda and other Ringo youngsters is such a shame!
Click to expand...

What lovely compliments to pay to my ponies :) Thank you :) They both do B's memory proud

ribbons said:
I 100% agree with everything said in OP. I have used graded stallions, premium scheme stallions and ungraded stallions. I have graded mares and ungraded mares. I always try to breed the best I possibly can for the discipline the foal is being aimed at, carefully selecting a stallion to suit a particular mare. The job of the futurity evaluations in my opinion is to score the animal In front of you. Not influence a breeders decisions.
I can be a cynical old bat on occasion, but I do have to wonder where the benefits of this ruling will be, because I don't think it will neccessarily be the quality of future performance stock. Maybe more the books of certain stallions.
Let's be honest, some gradings are little more than a group of people's opinion. Pretty much the same as the futurity.
Lots of people breed with the futurity in mind, it has become an important event for youngstock evaluation. This ruling will be a bad day for performance breeding.
In my opinion, not only should it be dropped but I would like to see a different ruling. Whereby the young horse should be evaluated entirely on it's own merit, to the point of it's parentage being undisclosed. Totally unworkable I imagine in this day and age of corruption, but it's what I would like to see in fair and square evaluation of an animal.
Click to expand...

Agree 100%!! Especially with the part I've highlighted.
 
As the Ex owner of a Graded Stallion and the owner of a Ungraded one I think like judging horse shows its a opinion and as we all know those change as often as underwear! if that rule applys it still means a C*** mare can be used with a graded stalion and it get to go get its rosette! implying its superiour to the ungraded non rossette holder by an ungraded stallion, thats an improvement then ! the only way you will get true inprovement is if a committee of judges have to approve mares before they are allowed to breed! and that wont happen. its the mares that are just as important covering certificates could be changed for ungraded mares when foal registration takes place, I am glad we breed for racing as opinion means nothing it results that count!
 
I thuoght the futurity was to highlight the best of british breeding, look at what lines are working well and try and uncover future stars.

I think by bringing in the graded stallion rule, they are limiting the pool of potential horses forward and may miss out on some some super horses who are no less great because their sire doesn't have a bit of paper decided by another set of opinions.

Also, as the mare brings minimum 50% to the progeny, it makes no sense whatsoever that you can use any old mare you like and enter futurity, so long as the stallion is graded?
 
The original motto of the Futurity was "more horses more medals" . The aim of the futurity was to find the future stars of the horse world. At the time I thought it was great, You paid your money and had your horse assessed for its future potental.

I think the futurity and now lost its way.....

I have a number of mares, one is KWPN pink papered stir graded mare. I did send the futurity an email asking as she was graded were her young stock elegable to enter the futurity even if they were from an ungraded stallion. I have yet to recieve a reply.....:rolleyes:

The futurity's loss I think.:rolleyes:
 
But lots of restrictions about only if the stock they have put forward have achieved higher first and elite premiums however Graded stallions can carry on sending second and third premium stock forward......And also a promise to revive the allrounder horse section which is a positive if tricky to achieve move given the possibilities of horses being in the wrong sections, if too good or not good enough, will they move them in and out of one section or another and how will they go about judging the temperament? A different display of how they deal with scary things perhaps like junior horse agility but surely with all they have to go through to compete the Elite horses ought to be able to do that too......
 
The Futurity are trying to improve the standard of British breeding, it is a no-brainer that the rule should be stock by graded stallions only - this should have been the case from the day the Futurity started.

Eventrider - does the fact that you have yet-to -be-presented stock by your ungraded stallion influence your opinion on this? Is this one of the reasons you think it should be phased out slowly, over a period of years?
 
Perlino, it makes no sense whatsoever to bar youngsters that were awarded premiums in previous years simply because they're by ungraded stallions. How can they be worthy one year and not the next? Of course it needs to be phased out until those that were the youngest when the rule for graded only stallions came in have reached three; totally unfair otherwise unless the BEF are going to refund their entry fees from the years before of course.

Why is it only graded stallions then, why not graded mares too or why not let it be one or the other as Springs mentioned.

TBH, I think BEF have shot themselves in the foot with this one; there are a lot of people that would have entered their very nice stock but are now unable to because of this rule; at £60 a pop, that's a lot of money they've lost although the new leisure breeding class could well sway it for them in the future which is why they've done it, to answer to market forces as it was not in their original brief at all.

I've yet to hear what advantage it gives to sellers though, most buyers don't even know it exists so no prestige there, they'd be better showing it, at least people understand and appreciate the results from that kind of thing.
 
Last edited:
perlino said:
The Futurity are trying to improve the standard of British breeding, it is a no-brainer that the rule should be stock by graded stallions only - this should have been the case from the day the Futurity started.

Eventrider - does the fact that you have yet-to -be-presented stock by your ungraded stallion influence your opinion on this? Is this one of the reasons you think it should be phased out slowly, over a period of years?
Click to expand...

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Please ER, ignore this...

Maesfen said:
Perlino, it makes no sense whatsoever to bar youngsters that were awarded premiums in previous years simply because they're by ungraded stallions. How can they be worthy one year and not the next? Of course it needs to be phased out until those that were the youngest when the rule for graded only stallions came in have reached three; totally unfair otherwise unless the BEF are going to refund their entry fees from the years before of course.

Why is it only graded stallions then, why not graded mares too or why not let it be one or the other as Springs mentioned.

I've yet to hear what advantage it gives to sellers though, most buyers don't even know it exists so no prestige there, they'd be better showing it, at least people understand and appreciate the results from that kind of thing.
Click to expand...

Maesfen, I completely agree with you, re: the bits I have highlighted.

With regards to your comments about the "advantage" it gives sellers, I would think you are looking at this the wrong way. The Futurity has been gaining in popularity with breeders, year-on-year, not because it gives them a selling edge, but because it gives them an independent assessment of their stock - and I disagree that showing does the same job. Show judges are generally rubbish at assessing sports horses. As long as they will insist on all horses, including youngstock, being overweight (and they do, by and large), 2 year olds looking like full-grown horses, won't give you any feedback or explain their judging decisions, then showing will remain inadequate for the evaluation of young sports horses and I will only take mine as foals (purely for education purposes) or occasionally older if they happen to be good doers and evenly grown (like Max this year, who is going to the Futurity and the Norfolk show).

Maesfen said:
TBH, I think BEF have shot themselves in the foot with this one; there are a lot of people that would have entered their very nice stock but are now unable to because of this rule; at £60 a pop, that's a lot of money they've lost although the new leisure breeding class could well sway it for them in the future which is why they've done it, to answer to market forces as it was not in their original brief at all.
Click to expand...

This might interest all of you:

'During the next four years, a new expanded evaluation system in planned for amateur competition, leisure and recreational horses and ponies. Within this system, young horse evaluations will place emphasis equal to Futurity on conformation and correctness of gaits, less emphasis on athleticism and more emphasis on temperament. In the case of progeny from sires which have not passed a grading or are in a studbook which has no formal grading system, they will be eligible for entry into this system.'

This is a VERY welcome move, in my book.

Interestingly, I discussed something very similar with someone involved with the Futurity at a stallion parade (details of who and where are hazy, I'm getting on a bit!). I expressed the view that there should be a "parrallel" Futurity especially for leisure horses, so that a very well put together, correct, workmanlike youngster who has the potential to become a star as a riding club horse, not come out with a second or a third premium because they are unlikely to be a world beater - in a word, take over where showing has lost its way (IMO) and work to improve the breeding of leisure horses, without forgetting that the target is to produce good sound trustworthy leisure horses, not failed competition horses - a very large market, which shouldn't be neglected.
 
amymay said:
Oooo shall we have the ungraded stallion discussion again. Our first one was ages ago......
Click to expand...

I know very same old same old isnt it.
What i think is a shame is that all of the people that slate ungraded stallions are then happy to sell semen to people with not only ungraded mares but even ones with no registered breeding either.
Pot calling the kettle black here.
And yes i have an ungraded although fully registered with his breed society stallion,actually i have 2 but one is semi retired and a pet now.
Compared to the amount of ungraded mares that a very popular graded stallion will cover i hardly think that something like my stallion (who btw is legally entitled to be covering through his breed society) Will hardly damage our breeding reputation.
Trying to make the futurity elitist will just make it a showcase for a set few stallions which is pretty boring as i for one wont be dictated to what stallions i can and cant use.
Will give up breeding long before then.
Hmm perphaps its time to emigrate this country really is turning into a nanny state now
 
perlino said:
The Futurity are trying to improve the standard of British breeding, it is a no-brainer that the rule should be stock by graded stallions only - this should have been the case from the day the Futurity started.

Eventrider - does the fact that you have yet-to -be-presented stock by your ungraded stallion influence your opinion on this? Is this one of the reasons you think it should be phased out slowly, over a period of years?
Click to expand...

Why should it only be graded stallions? How many times have the graders got it wrong & will continue to. The Futurity is an assessement of the stock being put forward it is not a grading system. Yes there are people breeding from stock that perhaps would be best gelded & the mares kept as riding horses, but why should they be barred if they want them assessed? If they acheive low marks then it MIGHT tell them something, as it is you will not stop them so why not include them? Each horse should be assessed on it's own merits, surely? Gradings are only a guide line it, unless the stallion or mare is older & has offspring to compare then the judges have to go by their own judgements from past experience. In an ideal world we would only use graded stock, but it isn't & we all have reasons why we don't. My own mares are not broodmares & I do not see the point in the expense for a one off foal. In the past I have graded the mare, but that was to be her career.
 
As others have said it is an EVALUATION, not a grading so I don't understand why any foal who is eligible for registration into a British based studbook, should now not be allowed to come forward to be assessed.

Personally, I don't think they should allow youngsters to enter that DON'T have a British Studbook based passport, I think its quite funny that you can enter a KWPN, Oldenburg etc. on the understanding that you 'will' get it overstamped with a British based register. I am sure all those owners/breeders are rushing off to pay out another registration fee after their youngsters have gone through the series. I DON'T THINKS SO!!!!!!!
 
At the risk of being shot down I think it stinks of something iffy.
Like I said earlier in this thread, grading is opinion. I will continue to breed to stallions that impress me. Some will be graded, some won't. The futurity will not manipulate my breeding decisions. A fantastic scheme gone bad as usual. Wonder which graded stallion owners pushed for this ruling.
 
I wonder, with the new allrounder section to come in, whether like in the other disciplines where a horse can be moved into a diff section if suits it better, there will be some of the ones aimed at upper level spheres being swapped across. Can't see that going down too well....
 
Apologies if this has been covered, but I thought I read somewhere that the entries this year were going to be anonymous. Is that not true ?
 
GinnieRedwings said:
:
With regards to your comments about the "advantage" it gives sellers, I would think you are looking at this the wrong way. The Futurity has been gaining in popularity with breeders, year-on-year, not because it gives them a selling edge, but because it gives them an independent assessment of their stock - and I disagree that showing does the same job. Show judges are generally rubbish at assessing sports horses. As long as they will insist on all horses, including youngstock, being overweight (and they do, by and large), 2 year olds looking like full-grown horses, won't give you any feedback or explain their judging decisions, then showing will remain inadequate for the evaluation of young sports horses and I will only take mine as foals (purely for education purposes) or occasionally older if they happen to be good doers and evenly grown (like Max this year, who is going to the Futurity and the Norfolk show).




This is a VERY welcome move, in my book.

Interestingly, I discussed something very similar with someone involved with the Futurity at a stallion parade (details of who and where are hazy, I'm getting on a bit!). I expressed the view that there should be a "parrallel" Futurity especially for leisure horses, so that a very well put together, correct, workmanlike youngster who has the potential to become a star as a riding club horse, not come out with a second or a third premium because they are unlikely to be a world beater - in a word, take over where showing has lost its way (IMO) and work to improve the breeding of leisure horses, without forgetting that the target is to produce good sound trustworthy leisure horses, not failed competition horses - a very large market, which shouldn't be neglected.
Click to expand...

Totally agree with you Ginnie.

Ive been going to the BEF for the past 3 years, and started off as i wanted an unbiased professional opinion of my first foal. Never had him down as a world beater. just a nice allrounder. The advice i received was invaluable, and everyone should have access this, whether its a graded sire or not.

The idea of a 2nd show to target all rounders is sound and as sire rankings are published could aide future breeders selections. The fact that they mark on conformation and temperament is surely what breeding an all rounder is about
 
Cobden99
No not true, sadly. I wish it were.
I would like to see youngstock evaluated on their own merit, not that of their parents.
 
This seems really, really weird to me :(

I am all for breeding with graded parents - but that's because for the studbooks and sport I like it is beneficial to me personally. I don't like the idea of imposing that sort of system (which seems distinctly continental) on others. I think the UK/Ireland breeds the best event horses in the world, and yet as far as I am aware TB stallions are not graded. And an eventer needs a good bit of TB! Maybe they can be with some register or other (SHGB??? - I live abroad so am a bit out of touch) but I can't see why breeders should have to.

If the futurity is to judge the horse as an individual then that is what it should be doing. It isn't a breed registry itself and hence giving a licence to breed. Some of the best horses I have owned have been cross bred mutts - carefully bred mutts at that - a dash of pony, some TB, a bit of (unknown) Irish blood - and they were magnificant eventers, SJ/ dressage horses. Its a shame if such horses are to be outlawed and others allowed, even though the 'grading' may be very, very weak depending on the breed society.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top