Futurity - Stallion Progeny Eligibility

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S_N

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OK, so I know I have 99% decided not to take either of mine to the Futurity this year and though next my current 3yo obviously will not be able to participate, my current yearling may be able to do so. However, looking at the current rules for Stallion Progeny Eligibility, I am not 100% certain that I will be able to take her, as even though her dam is a graded mare, her sire is ungraded. Could someone please be kind enough to explain the following (taken from the BEF website) please? I'm not sure if it is the painkillers I have been prescribed following my accident that are clouding my ability to read this clearly or not, having not read this text previously.

"Stallions
Horses entering the Futurity may be of any breed provided that they have been sired by either :

(i) a stallion which has been graded /approved/licenced for breeding with a UK studbook or daughter studbook recognised by DEFRA that is dedicated to the breeding of sport horses or ponies, or has a specific section for sport horses or ponies in which the stallion is listed or

(ii) is currently graded/approved for breeding with a WBFSH member and is standing abroad or

(iii) in the case of native and indigenous breeds only is a member of the British Horse Society (BHS) Horse and Pony Breeds Committee.

A graded/approved/licensed stallion is one that has been evaluated and assessed for conformation, type, movement and correctness by a panel of professional judges of an accredited and recognised DEFRA studbook and has been approved to stand at stud, or has been graded overseas by a World Breeding Federation for Sport Horses (WBFSH) member studbook using these criteria and has been accepted into such a studbook. The grading/approval/licensing process must also have included a five stage vetting with particular investigation of heritable or genetic conditions or vices.
Horses sired by stallions which are approved for breeding in any other DEFRA recognised studbook or section of a studbook and which have competed successfully in Grade A show jumping, Advanced Eventing or Advanced Dressage are also permitted to enter the Futurity.

Horses sired by stallion from other studbooks with a proven record of producing sport horses but have no sports-related grading systems (e.g. pure-bred, part-bred and Anglo Arabs and Iberian breeds) will be considered on an individual basis on the merits of their sports-related bloodlines.

In addition horses sired by Weatherbys General Stud Book racing thoroughbreds which may not have been graded but who may have performance records on the racetrack, may also be eligible to take part in the Futurity and the decision on the eligibility of such sires will be made by the BEF on an individual basis.

Progeny of stallions entered into Section VII of the Weatherbys Non-Thoroughbred
Register (NTR) will only be eligible for the Futurity if their sires are also graded/approved/licenced by another DEFRA listed studbook.

It is preferable, although not a requirement at this time, that dams of Futurity entries have been graded by a UK studbook or daughter studbook recognised by DEFRA that is dedicated to the breeding of sport horses or ponies, or has a specific section for sport horses or ponies or is a World Breeding Federation for Sport Horses (WBFSH) member studbook either in the UK or abroad or have a verifiable performance record."

Many thanks!
 
Now you have me worried too
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I have entered my yearling this year and he is a registered Welsh Part Bred but too my knowledge the Stallion has had no grading and the mare is a thoroughbred and ditto no grading. Hope someone answers this soon !!
 
I find this very bizarre- how on earth does whether the sire is graded or not affect the quality of the youngster put forward in front of the evaluators?!!
 
From what I can gather from the BEF website this will be the case as from 2012 so doesn't apply this year they are simply giving warning.

I hope so as I am taking my foal whose sire is not graded yet, I am really looking forward to an experts opinion on her as she looks perfect to me
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I *think* cos the stallion himself isn't graded then your yearling is ineligible. I could be wrong though......

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Well, this is what I thought, but there have been youngstock by the same sire as my filly entered in previous years and some have done exceptionally well, gaining First and even Elite Premiums. In fact my filly was entered last year as a foal, but I had to withdraw her when she threw up a foot abscess 2 days before her venue. I was wondering if the rules had changed for this year?
 
I think the rule change comes into effect in 2012, but I would like to ask what happens to the Arabs that are being put forward for the endurance section, there is no such thing as Arab grading, also I think the same for TB's.
 
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Now you have me worried too
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I have entered my yearling this year and he is a registered Welsh Part Bred but too my knowledge the Stallion has had no grading and the mare is a thoroughbred and ditto no grading. Hope someone answers this soon !!

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As the foal has WPBR papers the sire must have been licenced as a breeding stallion by WPCS so your youngster is eleigible.
 
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I think the rule change comes into effect in 2012, but I would like to ask what happens to the Arabs that are being put forward for the endurance section, there is no such thing as Arab grading, also I think the same for TB's.

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This is the bit that applies to Throughbreds, Arabs, PBAs etc (even specifically mentions them);

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Horses sired by stallion from other studbooks with a proven record of producing sport horses but have no sports-related grading systems (e.g. pure-bred, part-bred and Anglo Arabs and Iberian breeds) will be considered on an individual basis on the merits of their sports-related bloodlines.

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so endurance horses with Thoroughbred, Arab, PBA etc pedigrees certainly hav eno eligibility problems and for other disciplines are pretty much automatically accepted as well (how could we do otherwise with Tamarillo etc doing so well?;-))
 
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I think the rule change comes into effect in 2012, but I would like to ask what happens to the Arabs that are being put forward for the endurance section, there is no such thing as Arab grading, also I think the same for TB's.

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This is the bit that applies to Throughbreds, Arabs, PBAs etc (even specifically mentions them);

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Horses sired by stallion from other studbooks with a proven record of producing sport horses but have no sports-related grading systems (e.g. pure-bred, part-bred and Anglo Arabs and Iberian breeds) will be considered on an individual basis on the merits of their sports-related bloodlines.

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so endurance horses with Thoroughbred, Arab, PBA etc pedigrees certainly hav eno eligibility problems and for other disciplines are pretty much automatically accepted as well (how could we do otherwise with Tamarillo etc doing so well?;-))

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Thank you for that, I should really have read though before I posted
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my current yearling may be able to do so. However, looking at the current rules for Stallion Progeny Eligibility, I am not 100% certain that I will be able to take her, as even though her dam is a graded mare, her sire is ungraded. Could someone please be kind enough to explain the following (taken from the BEF website) please?

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Bearing in mind that these sire eligibility rules will only apply from 2012 (we believe in giving people good notice to get their breeding programmes in to line with the rules :-)) your yearling and 3 year old will almost certainly be eligible UNLESS they are sired by Weatherbys Section VII stallions who are not Weatherbys NTR (ie XTB by birth) and who could have gone / may have gone and already failed approval by their official birth / relevant studbook.

However, hopefully this is not the case and as there are many routes to eligibility anyway could you just to clarify (PM me if you would prefer) :

(i) what is the birth studbook of the stallion concerned?
(ii) what is his personal competition / race / performance record to date?
(ii) to what level (if any) have his progeny completed successfully and in what discipline(s)?
(iv) what studbook / PIO provides passports / pedigree papaers for his foals at present.

That should help provide a meaningful answer to your question and put your mind at ease.
 
In simple terms the situation is -

Until 2012 it irrelevant whether the sire or dam have graded status. Currently any British Bred youngstock are eligible.

Let's not frighten people off by implying there are currently any barriers to entry other than the very clear one about the stock being British Bred and in possession of or eligible for DNA verified passports from a WBFSH member
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Horses sired by stallion from other studbooks with a proven record of producing sport horses but have no sports-related grading systems (e.g. pure-bred, part-bred and Anglo Arabs and Iberian breeds) will be considered on an individual basis on the merits of their sports-related bloodlines.

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ok.........so I have used a licenced Pba stallion and he has given me a lovely filly worthy of Futurity. He is not graded anywhere and has no "proven" record of producing sport horses.

Hypothetically, if we jump forward to 2012.....I wouldn't be able to enter my filly, would I?
 
I know of at least one foal by a stallion which was only registered with a Coloured Horse Society participating in a futurity evaluation. So parentage doesn't seem to matter so much.
 
Ciss apolgogies for not PM'g this but next year (2011) a foal, yearling, or 2yo that did very well would not qualify when the rules change in 2012 is that correct? Or because it has been registered prior to the change it will still be eligible? Sorry if I have not made myself understood. It would just seem strange that an animal that has held its own as a foal this year would be excluded as a 2yo because of the new rule change.
 
I think I'm trying to make the same point as Magic104 - this years filly can enter but hypothetically to have the same filly in 2012 will mean it can't enter as it's sire is not graded and doesn't have proven record of sport horse progeny.

Wouldnt this exclude some very good horses and possibly mean that we would exclude some people who maybe can't afford stud fees of our best sport horses.

I can understand trying to improve breeding - but this is a bit prescriptive.
 
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I think I'm trying to make the same point as Magic104 - this years filly can enter but hypothetically to have the same filly in 2012 will mean it can't enter as it's sire is not graded and doesn't have proven record of sport horse progeny.

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I think it is meant to apply to any foals born in 2012 or later (ie from 2011 coverings onwards) so we will adjust the wording to make that clear (sorry!).

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Wouldnt this exclude some very good horses and possibly mean that we would exclude some people who maybe can't afford stud fees of our best sport horses.

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Bearing in mind all the stud fee concessions and vouchers people are now looking like they will have and the fact that unless the studfee is really huge (several thousand pounds) it is not really a very major factor in the overall production costs of a youngster then I would hope that this would not be the case.

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I can understand trying to improve breeding - but this is a bit prescriptive.

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Not really, it is another way of getting as many successful sires and successful breeders to be eligible for the WBFSH rankings as possible and thus promote the best of British to the rest of the world (as well as at home of course :-)).
 
Ciss - the dates are clear, that's not in dispute. The point I was trying to make is that today (2009) I have a filly that can do Futurity - but if I bred the same filly in 2012 she wouldn't be able to do Futurity as her sire is not graded etc.

My point is that I have (for example) - a lovely filly, worthy of attending Futurity and I am very happy with the breeding but if I had the same filly born in 2012 I would lose that chance of having her looked at.

I just think that is a shame.
 
You're not alone BJ.

It's almost like a stealth tax on stallions - use who we say or you can't play - and sounds very elitist and is another valid reason why the breeding should not be in front of the evaluators when they are judging the horse in front of them. Who is to say that graded stallions are any better than some ungraded ones, shouldn't it be their produce that proves that?
I suppose the acid test would be to judge ten completely unknown youngsters and mark them (without their breeding known until after)
 
I am on the fence with this Graded versus Ungraded as I have one of each. But I feel it is the grading system that needs evolving as there has to be some grading of stallions be it basic to start with because there stallions out there who are avoiding or have failed gradings for real reasons and mare owners need to know. We are wanting to reward premium/graded mares so surely they need to go to properly vetted and graded stallions?
 
The trouble is that in most other European countries the breeders do not often use un-graded stallions, because people do not stand them. People in the UK may not agree with grading stallions for whatever reason, but any breeding needs standards.

One of the continued arguments is the standard of breed societies in the UK, well again this should be looked at. Another argument by others is that these graded stallions are not producing the goods, well again if the breed societies were worth their salt then they should fail them if they have not produced a minimum quality of offspring. Also the stallions are continually blamed for not producing the offspring, but how many of them get good quality mares?

As long as the UK continues to promote the use of un-graded stallions they will never move forwards. Perhaps the BEF should have just of had the rules for a start that horses were only eligible for entry if they were out of a "graded" stallions, then you would not have all this confusion now with people.

At the end of the day a lot of ungraded stallions are charging the same as those who have gone through a grading process, so you cannot compare on the stud fees.

All the BEF are trying to do is encourage people to think more about their breeding programmes, and this should be embraced by breeders. However, as others have said in the many posts about it - more information on judges, more transparency, more information on breeding goals, better wording of public information - these areas should all be looked at.

I think there is a need for the likes of the Futurity to push British Breeding forwards, as somebody needs to do it across the board, otherwise people will continue to look to the Continent for their next riding horse.
 
so the stallion will have to be graded but the mare does not?

does that not suggest that the BEF thinks more of the sire than the damline despite the mare having at least a 50% input in the resulting foal?

surely if you are going to insist on graded horses you need to insist on both parents being graded or neither?
 
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so the stallion will have to be graded but the mare does not?

does that not suggest that the BEF thinks more of the sire than the damline despite the mare having at least a 50% input in the resulting foal?

surely if you are going to insist on graded horses you need to insist on both parents being graded or neither?

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Who knows that what you say will not be on their future agenda? Some of the UK Studbooks do not hold mare gradings, the AES for one do not do this. So that would then mean that mare owners would then have to pay more to cross register their mares to have the mare graded with another society. Some may not have a problem with that, but others will.

If people in the UK are already complaining about being pushed to use graded stallions, could you imagine the uproar at them having to have their mares graded as well.
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Major introductions to peoples breeding have to be done over a space of time, not overnight.

Maybe the Futurity could have a broodmare class at the evaluations for such a thing, thus saving mare owners the expense of having to register with multiple societies.
 
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Who knows that what you say will not be on their future agenda?

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Well, its certainly a possibility that has been discussed

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Some of the UK Studbooks do not hold mare gradings, the AES for one do not do this. So that would then mean that mare owners would then have to pay more to cross register their mares to have the mare graded with another society. Some may not have a problem with that, but others will.

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And of course that is the main problem with insisting on graded mares ATM, and there are also a considerable number of non-graded TB, Arab (and their crosses) usd in eventing breeding in particular (and in which a real unique ISP as a horse production nation lives), so that does have to be carefully addressed.

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If people in the UK are already complaining about being pushed to use graded stallions, could you imagine the uproar at them having to have their mares graded as well.
grin.gif
Major introductions to peoples breeding have to be done over a space of time, not overnight.

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Exactly so :-)

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Maybe the Futurity could have a broodmare class at the evaluations for such a thing, thus saving mare owners the expense of having to register with multiple societies.

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Now that is an interesting idea :-) ....
 
I am also sitting on the fence slightly on this one.

My 2 year old is indeed by a graded stallion, but my IDxTB mare is of unknown breeding, therefore will never be eligible for any form of grading. Should the mares require grading for the foals to be eligible, I would then be unable to use this mare again if I wanted to support the BEF Futurity (which for the record, I do!)

The mare has stamped my 2 year beautifully. He achieved a good 1st Premium last year as an eventer, and I am hoping to use the same combination again in a few years time (although I must have a chat to the stud owner as the stallion is now for sale). However, if British breeding is going to demand that the mare has to be graded, I feel this is going to severely reduce the number of breeders taking part in the Futurity Evaluations.

I breed as a hobby and to produce horses for my own use as competition horses. Even if my mare was eligible for grading, I would be perturbed to spend the money to put her through this when she is producing good quality stock already and I breed from her every so often when she has a break from competing.

Stud owners are a different kettle of fish. They are breeding as a business, they would benefit from grading mares, however, I have known many a graded mare produce appaling (and I do mean appaling) stock!

So, in my humble opinion, should the BEF require mares to be graded I believe it will solely be the big studs who have entries and you will seriously remove the smaller breeders (who are often the ones who breed real quality horses because they can be particular about stallions etc etc and use ones from all over rather than just their own...) from the programme.

I think this would be a very sad day indeed as I always believed the BEF aimed to encourage British Breeders, not discourage them from using the BEF system.
 
We keep talking about grading as though it is a hugh hurdle to climb, but it shouldnt be. It at first should be about checking soundness and conformation, then looking at what is being produced. Bloodlines then come second and it might take a few generations to complete but you have to start somewhere and that is where the BEF can step in but it must be transparent and seen to be fair.
 
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I am also sitting on the fence slightly on this one.

My 2 year old is indeed by a graded stallion, but my IDxTB mare is of unknown breeding, therefore will never be eligible for any form of grading. Should the mares require grading for the foals to be eligible, I would then be unable to use this mare again if I wanted to support the BEF Futurity (which for the record, I do!)

The mare has stamped my 2 year beautifully. He achieved a good 1st Premium last year as an eventer, and I am hoping to use the same combination again in a few years time (although I must have a chat to the stud owner as the stallion is now for sale). However, if British breeding is going to demand that the mare has to be graded, I feel this is going to severely reduce the number of breeders taking part in the Futurity Evaluations.

I breed as a hobby and to produce horses for my own use as competition horses. Even if my mare was eligible for grading, I would be perturbed to spend the money to put her through this when she is producing good quality stock already and I breed from her every so often when she has a break from competing.

Stud owners are a different kettle of fish. They are breeding as a business, they would benefit from grading mares, however, I have known many a graded mare produce appaling (and I do mean appaling) stock!

So, in my humble opinion, should the BEF require mares to be graded I believe it will solely be the big studs who have entries and you will seriously remove the smaller breeders (who are often the ones who breed real quality horses because they can be particular about stallions etc etc and use ones from all over rather than just their own...) from the programme.

I think this would be a very sad day indeed as I always believed the BEF aimed to encourage British Breeders, not discourage them from using the BEF system.

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You could put her forward for grading with SHB (GB) even if she has no verified breeding. She would then go in their Foundation Stud Book.

We took a mare a few years ago and must admit it was a good day and very low key. With the vetting (2 stage), DNA fee and the price of the grading came to about £130, so not really expensive.
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