Gastric Ulcers......advice/help please.

[noodle_]

SS - the symptoms of ulcers are so varied that whatever you do you may not get an indication by changing feed/supplements first. For example my retired horse's only symptom was chipping in at combination fences - and he was already fed an entirely fibre diet and was turned out 24/7 at the time.

Scoping really isn't expensive and can be done at your yard. It was only about £130ish when I last had it done, which in the grand scheme of horse owning is nothing!

If you really think it is ulcers, get him scoped asap - the problem is that if it is and you don't sort it, then it can lead to long term issues which take a great deal of time to resolve - it took a long time to get my boy back SJ properly again, I don't think he was ever quite the same horse, and I spent a fortune with a pro rider. If there hadn't been such a delay in diagnosing my horse his performance would never have deteriorated to the point it did.

this really...



since loosing a horse because of this and colic - it would be the first thing i do - scope - for any changes behaviourally etc....


its not that expensive....just the treatmentis.


with all due respect you say you need to sell this horses asap etc - then scope, know what your dealing with and it could be a simple case of ulcers? so why go the vets and not scope?
just a thought

 

[HD15]

I'm nearly done with the initial 28 days of GG for mine and he's getting re-scoped Wednesday. He was very angry at the leg and extremely girthy. He is much much better now.

At the moment he is on a balancer, Alfa-a and linseed oil. There are lots of different oils to choose from, but I've gone for linseed oil because the high omega-3 vs omega-6 (4:1) ratio is anti-inflammatory so helps to reduce the inflammation from the ulcers (and in general).

When he's done with the GG the vet has recommended either of Relive, Copra, Cool Stance and Ritetrac which I'm still in the process of investigating.

I'm also feeding him half a scope of Alfa-a 20min before riding.

Just one point to think about on the insurance. You might consider keeping the claims separate if they find ulcers. GG is expensive, something like £30 a day (initial recommended course is 28 days) plus scoping and re-scoping (mine was way more than £130 but I am in Surrey) so if you have other issues that need attention you may reach your claim limit too quickly if the issues are combined. Anyway you'll know what will work for you.

Good luck!

 

[YasandCrystal]

Just one point to think about on the insurance. You might consider keeping the claims separate if they find ulcers. GG is expensive, something like £30 a day (initial recommended course is 28 days) plus scoping and re-scoping (mine was way more than £130 but I am in Surrey) so if you have other issues that need attention you may reach your claim limit too quickly if the issues are combined. Anyway you'll know what will work for you.

Good luck!

Good point. My claims were kept separate. Just over £1100 on the ulcers and then maxed out £5k on the SI dysfunction before getting LOU.

 

[Ilovefoals]

My scope and resulting GG treatment, then re-scope cost nearly £2k so I'd definitley raise a claim with the insurance co and get him scoped. If he doesn't have ulcers then all well and good, but if he does, the treatment is expensive.

 

[ArcticFox]

If u suspect ulcers you really should be using danilon, my vets really were not happy even trying danilon when we needed to try and see if we had a lameness issue, I was only aloud to use it for 2-3 days max at 2 a day.

I think there has been discussions as to whether Danilon (suxibuzole) or Bute (Phenylbutazone) are better than the other in the short term.

i believe that Danilon is better long term but I'm not sure in the short term. Can't find any research on this on my brief search. Afaik danilon is useful as it is highly palatable.

If you were using a NSAID and were concerned about ulcers, I think firocoxib may be the NSAID of choice as its a cox 2 inhibitor (so its sparing on cox1, which is the enzyme that is involved in maintaining gut protectant production, blood flow and other useful things - these are enzymes in the arachidonic acid cascade). most NSAID are cox 2 prefential but still supress cox 1, therefore making it riskier when administering.

 

[philamena]

The latest research I read on Bute vs Danilon suggested they're less confident in Danilon being much better these days... Apparently they'd initially thought it was about the effect the actual substance had while in the stomach, and now they've decided that it's about the effect it has once absorbed into the system and that there isn't as much difference as they thought. That was only in one place though that I read that and now I can't for the life of me remember where. It was somewhere scientific though (ie a paper) not a random rambling on a forum like I'm doing now (ahem). Anyway, having an ulcery horse I'd investigate this next time I had to make a choice...

 

[Holidays_are_coming]

My mare wont eat bute in any circumstance so I have no choice!!!

 

[el_Snowflakes]

Hi there,

Its funny (not haha funny btw!) but i was thinking of ulcers the other day when you decribed the problems you have been having with your horse. My horse recently underwent a behavioural change (strange angry behaviour in stable) and everything pointed towards ulcers, especially as she had recently had a very upset tummy due to very wet haylage. The vet told me over the phone that she would need to go to the vet school for an endoscopy and explained that the tests would be quite pricey so recommended that I try guastroguard for a week as this is what would be prescribed if ulcers were present. After he priced up the medication he said I would be as well sending her to the vet school as a week of guastroguard was coming in at around £240 (if i remember correctly!) The vet told me to try her in a different stable for 2 weeks to see if her behaviour changed (her stable was next to the haylage and she was very angry that others were helping theirselves to 'her' bale! lol.......about a month and a half on and she is right as rain. It just shows how sometimes we overlook behavioural issues and over worry that it might be something more sinister.

I wouldnt change your horses feed at the moment as you dont want to have too many variables in the equation. I would get him scoped and get to the root of the problem. Can you claim this on your insurance? Hopefully you get to the bottom of it straight away and its a straight forward fix!

 

[Gingerwitch]

Pay for 3 tubes of gastroguard...... you will know by the end of these if its ulcers - the results are so obvious.

 

[philamena]

Pay for 3 tubes of gastroguard...... you will know by the end of these if its ulcers - the results are so obvious.

I genuinely don't think that would be guaranteed - mine certainly wasn't so different within three days (or a week, or two weeks) that I'd have considered that a diagnosis. She'd been scoped, had a month of GG and scoped clear. But there was no sudden 'epiphany' change in behaviour like some people experience...

 

[Gingerwitch]

I have had two horses with ulcers - and I was shocked at the differance within the first few days

 

[philamena]

I have had two horses with ulcers - and I was shocked at the differance within the first few days

And that's why we spend all our time obsessing about them - because they're all different!

Also if there's something else going on to cause some of the signs and symptoms, you may see a change in some symptoms but not others and not know whether that's because those remaining symptoms are caused by ulcers and would go with more gastrogard / treatment, or are something else altogether. If you're prepared to pay a full course of gastrogard then scoping isn't that expensive by comparison. But then almost NOTHING'S expensive compared to a month of gastrogard

 

[dressagecrazy]

FWIW Ranitadine was the only drug available to try to treat ulcers trouble with it is it's rediculous to administer. Lots of Tablets & administered every 12hours or it doesn't work. Due to the administration it's never been considered really effective.

Omprazole is a god send compared to it once a day administration is all thats needed.
I also agree with being very careful with what NSAID you use if you really believe ulcers are there. One of mine was administered 1/4 tab a day of Previcox when he needed a painkiller. Vet wont let me use Danilon or Bute with him.

I currently use Gastro G from Superfix for mine, my boy had a flair up a few months ago due to a slight change in management. I decided to try Superfix's Gastro G & ive been very happy with the results enough so I'm still using it on a maintenance dose. It's the first time I've been able to not have to use Omprazole.

I also found my boy couldnt cope with Alfa it's reported it is good for Ulcer horses due to the Calcium acting as a buffer. But IMO it creates more problems than it worth, I don't feed it to any of my horses now.

 

[philamena]

I also found my boy couldnt cope with Alfa it's reported it is good for Ulcer horses due to the Calcium acting as a buffer. But IMO it creates more problems than it worth, I don't feed it to any of my horses now.

Interesting - how did you uncover that the Alfalfa was causing an issue?

 

[dressagecrazy]

Interesting - how did you uncover that the Alfalfa was causing an issue?

It was purely by chance tbh I have suffered terribly with this horse. He would scour at nothing & he would be that uncomfortable he would wedge himself up against walls.then as he would feel the burn from the scouring he would trot round the stable to try to get away from the pain.
In later years we found the only way we could stop him going into full blown colicky stress melt down from it was to sedate him. Obviously this is not really a great thing to keep having to do. It was so serious when it started it was not something that could be ignored. Sometimes it would last for days at a time.

By a twist of fate i ended up switching to Pure Feeds which doesn't contain Alfa. I switched as I liked the idea of feeding one feed, I thought It would cut down my time.
Instead it didn't work that well for all my horses, but we did realise after 3 months of being on this feed that my ulcer boy hadn't had any scouring or colicky behaviour. It was at this point I made the link to him being intolerant to Alfa, all his feed prior to this point had always been forage based using Alfa.

I don't feed Pure Feeds anymore but I am thankful I tried it as I would of never of made the link or thought Alfa was causing him such problems. I had so many long conversations with the vets & none of us ever thought his diet was contributing as he was on the perfect on paper Ulcer friendly diet.

He's been off Alfa now for 2 years or so & we haven't had a single vet call out to him since he's so stable it's wonderful *touches wood lol*.

When he has had a slight Ulcer flare & it is slight,Ive notice it through his performance rarther than anything untoward now. Within a week of being on Superfix it's sorted.

 

[Perfect_Pirouette]

Okay, so after having a think last night I think I am just going to bite the bullet and get him scoped.

I HAVE SOME Q'S IF ANYONE CAN HELP ME PLEASE.

1.Can I make 2 seperate claims to my insurance company if needed? One for lameness and one for scoping/GG if needed?

2.Treatment for lameness recommended by vets at the moment is just physio and pole work, will insurance pay out for physio if he has to have lots?

3. Would I be able to ring my insurance company and try and get my excess down if I bump my monthly premium up a bit do you think? Or will they smell a rat and say I can't or can't make a claim for weeks and weeks after doing so? I need to ring them but I have about 5000 calls to make at the moment and I only get half an hour lunch!

4. If I claim through my insurance for ulcers, when I sell him, will new owners be able to claim on their insurance for ulcers or will it be void?

Any help on the above would be appreciated until I can get to speak to insurance co/vets.

Thanks

 

[tibby]

As the " nervous " previous owner of said orange horse, when I owned him he had ad lib soaked hay and two feeds a day of Mollichaff Calmer, which is a high fibre feed, I fed no short feed, I added garlic and Equine America Glucosamine, and Naf Liquid Pro Feet, and grated carrots. He was slightly cold backed more so in winter, I rode him in a GP saddle with a conventional girth he was fine to tack up. Orange horse has had four changes of yard in a year, College, Farm, posters home and now busy livery yard, I would not be surprised if he has ulcers due to excess acid in his gut due to stress. I apoligise for the rant but am fed up of being portraid as ignorant and incompetant I am in my early fifties I have ridden since I was three, and owned horses for 35 years. I owned orange horse for six years and never really got on with him to ride, to handle he was a dream. Due to my personal circumstances I considerred pts as I did not want him passed from pillar to post, I am beginning to regret my decision after reading previou sposts on here!! Sorry.

 

[ester]

My answers would be

1) yes
2)yes

3) I'd be surprised if they let you do this,

4)If he has ulcers it will make no difference if they were claimed for on the insurance they will still be excluded as a pre existing condition (and potentially other gut stuff too)

 

[whizzer]

The lameness & scoping for ulcers are 2 different conditions so yes will be 2 different claims. Not sure about insurance company paying for physio. You could try ringing insurance company about point 3 but tbh I've not heard of anyone doing that & I don't think they'll go for it. If you sell the horse new owners won't be able to insure for ulcers,the insurance companies would regard that as fraud I'm afraid.

 

[Perfect_Pirouette]

As the " nervous " previous owner of said orange horse, when I owned him he had ad lib soaked hay and two feeds a day of Mollichaff Calmer, which is a high fibre feed, I fed no short feed, I added garlic and Equine America Glucosamine, and Naf Liquid Pro Feet, and grated carrots. He was slightly cold backed more so in winter, I rode him in a GP saddle with a conventional girth he was fine to tack up. Orange horse has had four changes of yard in a year, College, Farm, posters home and now busy livery yard, I would not be surprised if he has ulcers due to excess acid in his gut due to stress. I apoligise for the rant but am fed up of being portraid as ignorant and incompetant I am in my early fifties I have ridden since I was three, and owned horses for 35 years. I owned orange horse for six years and never really got on with him to ride, to handle he was a dream. Due to my personal circumstances I considerred pts as I did not want him passed from pillar to post, I am beginning to regret my decision after reading previou sposts on here!! Sorry.

Replied to you privately.

 

[wench]

Has the vet said what they think is causing the lameness? Or is it to keep costs down that you are trying the physio route first?

 

[Puppy]

It is incredibly common for a horse to develop a sore back, secondary to hind limb lameness. My horse developed PSD behind and as a result suffered ligament damage to her back which caused a very adverse reaction to being saddled. The back problem was resolved with a few sessions of shockwave treatment. If I were you I would bear this in mind before you become completely convinced about ulcers.

I do feel sorry for the old owner. Hope this isn't too distressing for you, Tibby.

 

[wench]

It is incredibly common for a horse to develop a sore back, secondary to hind limb lameness. My horse developed PSD behind and as a result suffered ligament damage to her back which caused a very adverse reaction to being saddled. The back problem was resolved with a few sessions of shockwave treatment. If I were you I would bear this in mind before you become completely convinced about ulcers.

This I'm afraid. Hence why I have asked what the vet has diagonosed. After my own experiences with lame/not right horses, you end up saving money in the long term by biting the bullet, and getting the vet out, and paying for the x-rays/nerve blocks required.

 

[Delicious_D]

Okay, so after having a think last night I think I am just going to bite the bullet and get him scoped.

I HAVE SOME Q'S IF ANYONE CAN HELP ME PLEASE.

1.Can I make 2 seperate claims to my insurance company if needed? One for lameness and one for scoping/GG if needed? -You wil need to ask your insurance compnay and vet this, it depends if the vet thinks the two are connected.

2.Treatment for lameness recommended by vets at the moment is just physio and pole work, will insurance pay out for physio if he has to have lots? Again, you need to ask your insurance as it depends what is covered.

3. Would I be able to ring my insurance company and try and get my excess down if I bump my monthly premium up a bit do you think? Or will they smell a rat and say I can't or can't make a claim for weeks and weeks after doing so? I need to ring them but I have about 5000 calls to make at the moment and I only get half an hour lunch! This is fraud really. You vet would need to provide a report to the insurance company and on it will be the date of your cal out when ulcers were first suspected. If your policy started after this date your insurance will probably be void for not declaring it.

4. If I claim through my insurance for ulcers, when I sell him, will new owners be able to claim on their insurance for ulcers or will it be void? It will be deemed a pre-existing condition...unless you dont tell them which would be highly immoral.

 

[BlackVelvet]

1.Can I make 2 seperate claims to my insurance company if needed? One for lameness and one for scoping/GG if needed? -You wil need to ask your insurance compnay and vet this, it depends if the vet thinks the two are connected.

2.Treatment for lameness recommended by vets at the moment is just physio and pole work, will insurance pay out for physio if he has to have lots? Again, you need to ask your insurance as it depends what is covered.

3. Would I be able to ring my insurance company and try and get my excess down if I bump my monthly premium up a bit do you think? Or will they smell a rat and say I can't or can't make a claim for weeks and weeks after doing so? I need to ring them but I have about 5000 calls to make at the moment and I only get half an hour lunch! This is fraud really. You vet would need to provide a report to the insurance company and on it will be the date of your cal out when ulcers were first suspected. If your policy started after this date your insurance will probably be void for not declaring it.

4. If I claim through my insurance for ulcers, when I sell him, will new owners be able to claim on their insurance for ulcers or will it be void? It will be deemed a pre-existing condition...unless you dont tell them which would be highly immoral.

Pretty much this. If you choose to have him scoped then this will be on the vet history anyway,and if the ulcers bother him years down the line then the insurance are unlikely to pay out. Maybe phone your insurers and ask what would be best to do.

 

[ArcticFox]

Although some insurance companies will remove exclusions if so many years have passed with no problems (think its around 4 years)

not sure though

 

[Delicious_D]

Im with KBIS and i *think* ours is two years...i would have to double check mind you.